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I'm tired of this crap about "chasing steam" and only those practising it will be affected.
I've told Max how I (and I suspect most other serious punters) operate and asked him at least twice to say whether that is "steam chasing" by his definition. He hasn't even attempted to respond to the question.
I do not chase "steam" if by that you mean my method is to bet when I detect a price or line movement is underway.Comment -
Yeah good luck with that Max
If there's anything that 10 years of online exchange betting has taught us it is that LIQUIDITY is everything
How many have attempted to cut into Betfair's market with lower commissions etc and have fallen by the wayside?
You may do it but imho it's a massive longshot to suggest you can challenge Matchbook on that front
At least you have the current advantage of offering more markets than them so it's not like you having a Betfair to compete withComment -
I see you are taking $40,000 on NFL games. Surely you can handle bets like that.Comment -
I dont understand how they can offer upto 40k in straight bets...but cannot offer decent limits for teasers and parlays...after all their site was created based on teasers and parlays off matchbook. They have $250 limits on teasers and parlays, whereas their limits for straight bets is $40,000. What a joke.Comment -
They can't. They can get unlimited max bets on one side without the line moving unless someone is hitting pinny too.Comment -
One month back their limits for straight bets was $250....now its $40,000....this is very suspicious. I wouldn't trust Parlaymakers for this sole reason. Even Bookmaker and Greek doesn't have such high limits.Comment -
They have even stopped posting wager history now. There was a very low volume earlier....I wonder how is it now.Comment -
well, with regards to the limits: as i think durito already pointed out: any volume they can't handle they can just lay off. no profit in that obv, but no risk either. this does get a problem when someone first hits PM, and then hits Pinny a second later, but to make that worthwhile someone would first need to deposit a whole lot of k's at PM.
anyway, i get the point made about the business model and getting uneven action. on the other hand, not a whole lot of us are LT winners at Pinnacle anyway and we're not exactly betting the whole board either. why would it be any different over a large sample of customers over a large sample of bets at PM.
also, i'm speculating here, but if you've got the right software in place to track your customers: if you're PM, just hijack the bets of your clearly winning customers (the lines are there at pinny, with higher limits even), and don't lay off the bets of your losing customers, and you might actually make some money i would think.Last edited by noyb; 09-07-10, 07:06 PM.Comment -
A market order style of ordering is not cheating. There is a lot more money traded everyday on world stock markets using market orders than there ever will be in sports betting.
I would guess you don't have much experience with that but that is the reality.
We are having a 7 page thread discussing it. It is clearly stated on the wagering menu.
Maybe we need to redefine what cheating is.... anything you don't like.Comment -
Your shameful lies only reflect badly on yourself.
You just need to have a little more exposure to other things in the world besides sportsbetting.
There is always more than one way to do things.Comment -
Max you are to my knowledge the only book in the world that does not allow the customer to decline the new line
why is that?Comment -
Yes, you have stated you don't chase steam just that you always beat the line changes.....ok. You did say that the line almost always moves against you...so if your not watching line movement I think that is a very unlikely statement. So either you are making your plays based on line movement or you are not always ahead of every line movement naturally.
In the case you are always ahead of the original line move it would have no affect on you anyway since you are placing your wagers before the line is moving.Comment -
It's a big world out there. Greek and Bookmaker aren't the only people who have money.
We asked our investors a simple question...do you think Pinnacle is making money....they said yes. We said if we copy them will we make money....a simple yes again. It is not nearly as complicated as you might think.
This is a simple business, with essentially a solved equation. As long as there exists a proven mathematical edge it is the same thing as running a roulette table. It is only about getting a sufficient amount of iterations to cover the variance.Comment -
Would you like the list of investors alphabetized with passport photos and home phone numbers....lol.
You are funny BigDaddy. No one says you have to bet $40,000 to try us out.
We take our customers one at a time. That is how we plan to build the business....we don't have crazy bonuses just solid great place to play with good value.Comment -
Max you have accused me of lying but not shown where.
Now you are putting words which I've never uttered into my mouth.
I have never said that I "always beat the line changes"
If you were to read more carefully what I have said you might actually understand my position.
And you may even favour me with a response to my question as to whether my mode of operation makes me a steam chaser by your definition.
I shop for the best price.
Now tell me if the price I elect to take is top of the market and it moves, which way is it more likely to move?
In my favour or against me?
If you fail to comprehend that you've obviously never been a punter.
huh?Last edited by Hareeba!; 09-07-10, 07:50 PM.Comment -
I play at every book there is. At none of them am I assigned a price for my wagers after accepting that is worse than the price I selected.
The 5% number here is just some random guess. As Kats said, pinny moves a lot. I bet a lot of halves/live wagers where the market is volatile. I may want -105 but not -110. If I know this someone else surely does and they bet at pinny while I'm waiting for pm to accept and I get -110. No, that isn't gonna work for anyone that does this seriously.
Your steam chasing theory is complete crap as well. Pinnacle doesn't have any issue with steam chasing now do they? Pinny's model is predicated on them having access to sharp bettors who shape their line. Your policy assures you will receive zero action from sharp bettors (which I suppose is the only thing that might save you). That's not really copying their business model now is it?Comment -
Don't tell people we are cheating...that is not accurate.
You say if you elect to take the price at the top of the market.......presumes you always know where the top of the market is and are always making that play. If your plays are more evenly distributed, that is someties your right and sometimes your wrong, like what we would expect for the normal player....even a very good player might only be 55/45 then any the current policy actually might only affect 10% of your play at best and if on average only 4% (using the other posters number) having a line change within the XML versus the actual then we are talking for a very good player at most maybe .004 of your overall plays might be affected. Note a 50/50 player is not impacted at all. Which is not to say that the player would be worse off playing at Parlayakers even on these plays since the overall juice is lower than perhaps the play he would be getting somewhere else. Keeping in mind we are discussing strictly US players.
Your underlying assumption that the line is always going to move against you is what I disagree with if you are basing your wagering on handicapping versus line movement.Comment -
The difference is that we are building our exchange so that we eventually are the largest market maker in the exchange, so we are not dependent on the exchange. The exchange can grow organically as the front end volume grows so will the exchange and we won't have to look for market makers they will come all by themselves because they will see the opportunity to make money.
I am never of the opinion that everything that can be done has been done. No one is invincible.....you talk like Betfair which basically didn't exist ten years ago or Matchbook which is less than like 5 years old are unstoppable.Comment -
Do you guys have at least $50 million in capital? That's about the amount I'd think a book would want on hand to book $40,000 bets.
If you don't this is unlikely to end well.Comment -
you may recall that I did concede that "cheating" was probably a little harsh but that I was struggling to find another word to describe what you do. So I don't accept that it is a lie on my part.
Perhaps "mugging" is a better description.
Once again you are attributing to me words which I've never used ("the line is always going to move against you")
I seem to be having trouble getting it through to you that it is far more likely that the best price in the marketplace is more likely to move downwards than upwards.
It is simply a matter of supply and demand.
If Pinnacle has +100, Matchbook -102, Greek and the rest have -105 and the Pinnacle price moves are you seriously saying it is at least as likely to go to +102 than -102 ?
Logic and my experience has proven that any move will be against me almost every time. Maybe 95%/5% at best.
Now if a player is asking for that +100 and it moves to -102 the player is worse off at PM than having hit Matchbook at -102 because your commission is greater than Matchbook's but unlike everywhere else you don't give him the opportunity to bet at Matchbook when the price has moved at Pinnacle.
Am I a "steam player"?Last edited by Hareeba!; 09-07-10, 08:40 PM.Comment -
You have a great argument...you would rather pay -110 on most of your wagers rather than -104 for example in the NFL because less than 1% of the time you might not get exactly the wager you wanted.....you might get -106 instead of -104 so clearly always using -110 is superior. I have got it.
Also, keep in mind the line can move in your favor in which case on these less than 1% cases we are discussing you would actually get a better price than what you thought.
Bottom line.....you get the same line as Pinnacle at Parlaymakers. Obviously, some of you would rather pay more and play some where else. Ok, it is not really logical but that is your right.
We have stated very clearly the great value at Parlaymakers and how it works. You can listen to the customers in the thread who actually play at Parlaymakers and enjoy the site or you can play somewhere else.Comment -
Yes, that is the whole point of steam betting to try and find a book that hasn't moved its line with the market yet. I didn't say it was immoral. Nothing wrong with trying to get the best price and nothing wrong with a book banning it.
Do you think most books will consistently let you bet their line right before they change it in the direction of the market every time? This is how people get put on delays and what they complain about all the time.
You are too used to betting at Pinnacle where they are the ones normally moving the line so they don't worry about steam chasers.
You must be nuts to think we are going to be slightly delayed behind Pinnacle and offering their lines and let people just take shots at us every time the Pinnacle line moves. It is comical you would suggest it.Comment -
It's comical that you think you are copying pinnacle's business model and thus should be successful. There is a reason established shops like 5dimes etc can't deal pinny for more than $500 (or $50 really). It took pinny years to be able to take those limits at that juice. You really think you can succeed with $40k nfl limits? That's quite the jump, from $250 to $40,000.Comment
