Pinnacle for stateside players

[Max009]

Yes you've got it all figured out. I can play at pinnacle now, so I don't really see what it is you want to offer. Someone sharper than me could certainly abuse you though.

How many max NFL bets are you expecting this week?

So which is it, you play at all the books or Pinnacle? After this thread I wouldn't want to confess either if I was paying -110 when I could be paying -104.

I am sure you are very happy at Pinnacle, they have great lines, same as Parlaymakers as a matter of fact.

[Hareeba!]

You must be nuts to think we are going to be slightly delayed behind Pinnacle and offering their lines and let people just take shots at us every time the Pinnacle line moves. It is comical you would suggest it.

Max you aren't listening to me!!!

I have never suggested that. Why do you keep putting words I've never uttered in my mouth?

I have no problem with you not honouring the quoted price (all books do that when the price moves).

The issue is simply that you provide NO WARNING of the price change and the option to accept or reject it as Pinnacle and every other book on this planet does.

A simple enough thing to fix but you are just too stubborn to do it.

And the crazy thing is that you will certainly attract more customers.

[BigDaddy]

everyone should just stop talking to max

the guy just doesn't get it.

he takes no wagers but yet says listen to the players in this thread

where are they?

i saw you took 40 bets in 5 days the last time i was able to view past wagers

wow!

[BigDaddy]

Do you guys have at least $50 million in capital? That's about the amount I'd think a book would want on hand to book $40,000 bets.

If you don't this is unlikely to end well.

well said.

i wouldn't deposit .10 cents into this book.

40k nfl sides

LMFAO!

[Dark Horse]

Maybe we need to redefine what cheating is.... anything you don't like.

Who is backing you financially?

Explain how you could suddenly jump to 40K limits. It doesn't serve you at all to be vague about this. For that kind of dough you better be as transparent as you can be. Or nobody in his right mind will trust you.

SBR, why is the rating for this outfit still 'under review'? What is going on with this place?

[thespeculator]

40k is quite a jump, good or bad ,this thread is better than any advertising

[jgilmartin]

I have no problem with you not honouring the quoted price (all books do that when the price moves).

The issue is simply that you provide NO WARNING of the price change and the option to accept or reject it as Pinnacle and every other book on this planet does.

A simple enough thing to fix but you are just too stubborn to do it.

Yes. Max, can you please explain why instead of simply providing a screen that says 'price has changed to _______, do you still want to place your wager?', your company insists on just automatically giving the player the new price?

You claim that it is because you don't want steam chasers taking shots at you...understandable goal, but if you just provided a confirmation screen it would still prevent them from getting the old price. As long as the last step in your code is to check with the Pinnacle feed before recording the wager in your database (and then displaying the confirmation screen if it has indeed changed, and then if the player accepts the new price, checking the Pinnacle feed again just before recording the wager, etc.), you should still be able to offer the most updated prices possible. I fail to see how this method of confirmation makes you any more susceptible to steam chasers, provided that re-checking the Pinnacle feed is the last step before recording the wager. I am certain the developers who made your site are fully capable of doing this, and you would likely be relieved by not having to answer this question over and over, which you will surely continue to be asked until your company adopts a fair policy.

[bookie]

As long as the last step in your code is to check with the Pinnacle feed before recording the wager in your database (and then displaying the confirmation screen if it has indeed changed, and then if the player accepts the new price, checking the Pinnacle feed again just before recording the wager, etc.), you should still be able to offer the most updated prices possible.

Max,

Why won't you come forward and answer these requests? You've said numerous times that you want to respond to your customers, but yet when there is a clamor for a specific change your stance seems to be take-it-or-leave-it.

[Santo]

The only conceivable answer must be some link between this particular software function and their business model, but I'm not at all sure what it is...

[Max009]

Who is backing you financially?

Explain how you could suddenly jump to 40K limits. It doesn't serve you at all to be vague about this. For that kind of dough you better be as transparent as you can be. Or nobody in his right mind will trust you.

SBR, why is the rating for this outfit still 'under review'? What is going on with this place?

Let me say this about 40k limits, the people who are betting 40k a game on the NFL are already betting at Pinnacle whether they live in the US or not. Pinnacle is designed for those high rollers. Our target audience is much more in the 1-2000 range per bet. We have the ability to take higher limits but lets have a reality check about who the most likely player to come to Parlaymakers is. If someone does bet higher than that then we can handle it.

Our target high roller is betting between 1-2 k per game on the high end most likely with a bank roll of maybe 20-30k. These players could easily be in the US and not have the time or connections to use Pinnacle so for those guys we are the perfect out. Right now, for the US we offer the most variety and best pricing for US customers. For the average US bettor(20$-200$ per game) we are a fantastic alternative to the reputable but high juice shops.

Regarding the rating with SBR I don't know what the status of that is. We just keep moving forward winning one customer at a time.

I tell everyone the same thing, try us out and see for yourself, no one says you have to put up your entire bankroll and with the way our system is designed with instant payouts you have complete control over when and where you move your money. With the instant payouts we have,the financial risk to the player is extremely low and it is very convenient to always be able to withdraw and move your money when you want.

You add the other factors, you can play anonymously, no limit cuts, no banning, no delays, always getting the Pinnacle line, sufficient limits, excellent variety and frankly compared to most places it is a no brainer.

Frankly, if there was an award for best new and most innovative book of the year award it would go to Parlaymakers.

Sorry, that last sentence was a bit of shameless promoting on my part....lol.

Thanks for the question Dark horse.

[Max009]

Max,

Why won't you come forward and answer these requests? You've said numerous times that you want to respond to your customers, but yet when there is a clamor for a specific change your stance seems to be take-it-or-leave-it.

We are very good at taking feedback from the customer, that doesn't mean we always do what they want.

When we first started as a stand alone we battled the steam chasers. There are a lot of very smart people in this business and they realized very quick if we were using Pinnacle's lines and slightly delayed then they could take advantage of that...and they did. So we started using delays and tracking their play....and on and on......and then we decided as we moved to higher limits we weren't going to play the catch me if you can game anymore. There is no incentive for us to bow down to the steam chasers. Once, we started delaying people they stopped playing....this is a steam chasing issue and really nothing else.

We are going to let the other books play that game, but we are on a different path. Your not going to hear people complain about being delayed, limited, or banned at Parlaymakers.....that is different too. For non steam chasers it is really not an issue...it is different than what a lot of people are used to.....good...we want to be different....we want to change the paradigm from the Sportsbook being the evil empire to the Sportsbook providing a service...in this case always giving the most current price available...that is what you get at Parlaymakers.

Thanks for your comment.

[Max009]

Max you aren't listening to me!!!

I have never suggested that. Why do you keep putting words I've never uttered in my mouth?

I have no problem with you not honouring the quoted price (all books do that when the price moves).

The issue is simply that you provide NO WARNING of the price change and the option to accept or reject it as Pinnacle and every other book on this planet does.

A simple enough thing to fix but you are just too stubborn to do it.

And the crazy thing is that you will certainly attract more customers.

No matter how much the wind howls, the mountain can not bow to it.

We have discussed the policy, I have explained my position and I understand yours.

[vyomguy]

We increased them per your suggestion. I mentioned it earlier to $1000 with a max payout of $7500.

Max...whats the deal with $1000 limit...even a recreational book like 5dimes has 5k limits on teasers. Can you just have $7500 payout limit and remove this $1000 betting limit...almost all the books have higher limits on teasers. I play at 5dimes and they offer exact teaser options like you guys with 5k betting limits...they have low juice too...so tell me why I should choose PM over 5dimes to play my teasers?....without higher limits there is no incentive for me to play at PM...1k limit is laughable considering you have 40k limit on straight bets. Its better to have limit on pay-outs instead on betting limits.

[bubba]

there is a lot for me to sift through this thread. im a little confused about this website. why would parlaymakers want to be set up the way it is with 2 percent being paid by the player every time they win? and i cant imagine parlaymakers is paying ******* 2% every time a player loses a wager. this seems so inefficient. its obviously not player friendly and the only way it would be friendly for parlaymakers is if they were in bed with ******* and making money on every single one of these transactions. what is going on with this book? i would be interested in trying them out despite the line change rule if they operated like a normal book.

[Hareeba!]

We are very good at taking feedback from the customer, that doesn't mean we always do what they want.

When we first started as a stand alone we battled the steam chasers. There are a lot of very smart people in this business and they realized very quick if we were using Pinnacle's lines and slightly delayed then they could take advantage of that...and they did. So we started using delays and tracking their play....and on and on......and then we decided as we moved to higher limits we weren't going to play the catch me if you can game anymore. There is no incentive for us to bow down to the steam chasers. Once, we started delaying people they stopped playing....this is a steam chasing issue and really nothing else.

We are going to let the other books play that game, but we are on a different path. Your not going to hear people complain about being delayed, limited, or banned at Parlaymakers.....that is different too. For non steam chasers it is really not an issue...it is different than what a lot of people are used to.....good...we want to be different....we want to change the paradigm from the Sportsbook being the evil empire to the Sportsbook providing a service...in this case always giving the most current price available...that is what you get at Parlaymakers.

Thanks for your comment.

None of that properly answers the question as to why you don't provide a warning and option to proceed with the bet at the changed odds. It wouldn't leave you any more exposed to supposed "steam chasers".

As can be seen from the overwhelming response to this issue on this thread, it is costing you players.

Further I'm sure that there will be players who don't know about it and will be mighty furious with you when they discover they've been short changed and you'll probably lose them.

Just doesn't make sense to me and several others.

Doesn't bother me personally because either way you offer nothing I want so long as I can play at Pinnacle, Matchbook and Betfair.

[bookie]

When we first started as a stand alone we battled the steam chasers.

The confirmation screen request has nothing to do with steam chasers. I guess if we thought you understood this then maybe we'd just throw our hands up in the air and let you spend your mountainous life not bowing to the wind.

But your words suggest that you think that we want you to expose your book to a danger. That's not the issue here. It's just not.

[Dark Horse]

Let me say this about 40k limits, the people who are betting 40k a game on the NFL are already betting at Pinnacle whether they live in the US or not. Pinnacle is designed for those high rollers. Our target audience is much more in the 1-2000 range per bet. We have the ability to take higher limits but lets have a reality check about who the most likely player to come to Parlaymakers is. If someone does bet higher than that then we can handle it.

Hmm. You could take the money people put up, even 40K, and bet it into Pinnacle yourself (through more than one account if necessary), before ever finalizing the bet at the parlaymakers end; all at flexibe and favorable-to-you 'Pinnacle' odds.

[Max009]

Max...whats the deal with $1000 limit...even a recreational book like 5dimes has 5k limits on teasers. Can you just have $7500 payout limit and remove this $1000 betting limit...almost all the books have higher limits on teasers. I play at 5dimes and they offer exact teaser options like you guys with 5k betting limits...they have low juice too...so tell me why I should choose PM over 5dimes to play my teasers?....without higher limits there is no incentive for me to play at PM...1k limit is laughable considering you have 40k limit on straight bets. Its better to have limit on pay-outs instead on betting limits.

I will consider that. We operate different than most every other book. When your funds are held in escrow...so are ours...which means that we have to be a little more cautious about expanding wager limits on things that can be leveraged like parlays and somewhat on teasers because they sometimes will have a longer time span.

I am sure our limits are higher on the low juice than 5 dimes. Like I said, I will consider it.

[Max009]

The confirmation screen request has nothing to do with steam chasers. I guess if we thought you understood this then maybe we'd just throw our hands up in the air and let you spend your mountainous life not bowing to the wind.

But your words suggest that you think that we want you to expose your book to a danger. That's not the issue here. It's just not.

I understand your point of view. We will have to agree to disagree.

[Max009]

Hmm. You could take the money people put up, even 40K, and bet it into Pinnacle yourself (through more than one account if necessary), before ever finalizing the bet at the parlaymakers end; all at flexibe and favorable-to-you 'Pinnacle' odds.

From a guy who has never played at Parlaymakers, I think you are really reaching since about 99% of the time people get the same line they see when they process the wager, your scenario is really unlikely. It is not hard...you could open Pinnacle make the wager with Parlaymakers and then check the line at Pinnacle. Again, this isn't designed to be very mysterious.

A lot of people who have never tried the site want to claim to be an expert on how it works and what the effect is on players and they are just simply incorrect.

[vyomguy]

I will consider that. We operate different than most every other book. When your funds are held in escrow...so are ours...which means that we have to be a little more cautious about expanding wager limits on things that can be leveraged like parlays and somewhat on teasers because they sometimes will have a longer time span. I am sure our limits are higher on the low juice than 5 dimes. Like I said, I will consider it.

Max, looks like I will have to wait to join your book for a year or so until you establish proper limits and a solid base. Until then...good luck.

[gleamingthecube]

My concern is that with the 2% that you pay to GP can outweigh the difference in the juice from PM to a more established book (5dimes, bookmaker, the greek etc). For example, if I put down $100 on the saints to cover the spread tomorrow night right now at 5dimes (standard -110 juice), I risk $100 to win 90.91. If I do the same at PM at -108, I still only get paid $90.73 after the 2% that I pay to GP. I understand how this might be worth the hit for some to have higher limits but if your target market is small to medium bettors then how do you expect to make this work? It seems that people would only be inclined to bet with you on those occasions where your line makes it worth the 2% hit. Only then does the idea of juice that might fluctuate become an issue. If I can only profit by placing some of my bets with you AND am in danger of making less money than at another book it seems like it will be really difficult to justify using your book consistently. Have I missed something?

[Optional]

Have I missed something?

You only have to pay the 2% if you choose to have your bets instantly paid out. If you want to switch the funds back and forth between PM and 5D quickly for example.

Otherwise use MB and withdraw weekly.

[Hareeba!]

You only have to pay the 2% if you choose to have your bets instantly paid out. If you want to switch the funds back and forth between PM and 5D quickly for example.

Otherwise use MB and withdraw weekly.

Yanks can't use MB

[CarloTwoGuns]

interesting

[gleamingthecube]

I have a MB account. It says that I have my credit card linked to it but there isn't an obvious way to make a deposit. ANy other US folks have an MB account?

[Dark Horse]

From a guy who has never played at Parlaymakers, I think you are really reaching since about 99% of the time people get the same line they see when they process the wager, your scenario is really unlikely. It is not hard...you could open Pinnacle make the wager with Parlaymakers and then check the line at Pinnacle. Again, this isn't designed to be very mysterious.

A lot of people who have never tried the site want to claim to be an expert on how it works and what the effect is on players and they are just simply incorrect.

I'm not claiming to be an expert at all. I'm trying to understand how you can afford 40K limits without being taken the cleaners. Pretty basic.

The scenario I sketched would be one way of doing it. Basically scalping. If that's not how it works, why don't you enlighten us? People have asked you how you can afford those limits, and your answer has been that you expect mostly 1-2K bets. How is that an answer? You're dancing around the issue.

[wrongturn]

hint: win 2% or 0, no risk

[bookie]

I understand your point of view. We will have to agree to disagree.

I have no sense that you understand my point of view. And in a conversation, you're not the one who gets to decide that. We might have gotten to the point of agreeing to disagree, but we're far, far from there.

[katstale]

I have a MB account. It says that I have my credit card linked to it but there isn't an obvious way to make a deposit. ANy other US folks have an MB account?

If u r USA and MB even suspects that u r using them for anything related to gambling they will suspend your acct. Wouldn't even try it.

[Max009]

My concern is that with the 2% that you pay to GP can outweigh the difference in the juice from PM to a more established book (5dimes, bookmaker, the greek etc). For example, if I put down $100 on the saints to cover the spread tomorrow night right now at 5dimes (standard -110 juice), I risk $100 to win 90.91. If I do the same at PM at -108, I still only get paid $90.73 after the 2% that I pay to GP. I understand how this might be worth the hit for some to have higher limits but if your target market is small to medium bettors then how do you expect to make this work? It seems that people would only be inclined to bet with you on those occasions where your line makes it worth the 2% hit. Only then does the idea of juice that might fluctuate become an issue. If I can only profit by placing some of my bets with you AND am in danger of making less money than at another book it seems like it will be really difficult to justify using your book consistently. Have I missed something?

Using your example, you are basically the same as a high juice book plus with the GP aspect you have a lot more control over your money. With GP you can move your money instantly at no cost to most US facing books without worrying about rollovers or who has book to book with whom. Also, GP offers same day ** payouts at $22 per $1000 which is very reasonable. Also, the GP withdraw policy is more flexible than most books with the ability to withdraw $3,000 per day via ** or ** every day.

On the other side of the bet you can get Minnesota at +100, so even factoring in the GP part you are still at -102 with the money instantly back in your ewallet. That is 8 cents better...that is a huge difference for the player. In fact there is an exchange offer up right now at +103.

Price wise compared to the high juice shops it is a no brainer to be playing at Parlaymakers. Also, keep in mind our Parlay prices are the best available.

[Max009]

I'm not claiming to be an expert at all. I'm trying to understand how you can afford 40K limits without being taken the cleaners. Pretty basic.

The scenario I sketched would be one way of doing it. Basically scalping. If that's not how it works, why don't you enlighten us? People have asked you how you can afford those limits, and your answer has been that you expect mostly 1-2K bets. How is that an answer? You're dancing around the issue.

No US facing book is going to detail its operations in the manner you describe. Take Matchbook for example, they are widely reported to be a huge credit operation and they don't mention anywhere that they take credit as an exchange. Nor do they ever mention widely reported huge credit losses.

The short answer is we have access to sufficient capital to cover our positions as offered. Also, unlike other books, we actually have to have our GP account funded to cover every wager we take so if we don't have the funds it is impossible for the wager to be placed. If someone places a 40k wager it will only be accepted if there are sufficient funds in our GP account to cover the payout. We work on a guaranteed payment system. Again, we operate very differently than most books where you place your wager and hope the book pays out. With Parlaymakers we post up your payout and it is held in escrow on every wager we take. Guaranteed instant payments when you win.

[thespeculator]

The short answer is we have access to sufficient capital to cover our positions as offered. Also, unlike other books, we actually have to have our GP account funded to cover every wager we take so if we don't have the funds it is impossible for the wager to be placed. If someone places a 40k wager it will only be accepted if there are sufficient funds in our GP account to cover the payout. We work on a guaranteed payment system. Again, we operate very differently than most books where you place your wager and hope the book pays out. With Parlaymakers we post up your payout and it is held in escrow on every wager we take. Guaranteed instant payments when you win.***********************having the funds in the ewallet is not a minor thing, i can think of several times i requested a payout at other books and them saying they don't have the funds in there ewallet at the moment , i did get paid quickly but still this is a great feature of parlaymakers,
why are people worried about there sources of capital, if they don't pay i will gladly agree they suck, but i guess they haven't missed a payment yet, that isn't something that has been mentioned

[bookie]

...why are people worried about there sources of capital, if they don't pay i will gladly agree they suck, but i guess they haven't missed a payment yet, that isn't something that has been mentioned

People are worried about their source of capital because they haven't taken many bets yet, and nobody knows anything about GP.

[thespeculator]

People are worried about their source of capital because they haven't taken many bets yet, and nobody knows anything about GP.

totally agree , i would look at there posted bets and wonder how they stay in business, somedays there would be 30 bets , some 40 i think the most i have seen is 70 , all i am saying is if they can pay that is all i care about, where they get it from i don't know