Horse Racing questions and answers

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  • Madison
    replied
    Originally posted by str

    Ok. Steroids.

    They were legal to use, and really did help horses gain weight, muscle, sometimes aggressiveness, more apatite, which led to more nutrition, and overall growth and better health . That is what you would see. But that was long before it was realized by the people giving it as well as the trainers, owners, and everyone involved including the FDA , that there were serious side affects that came with them. Now, I can already hear the skeptics hollering, "you should have known better., What the hell were you thinking".
    Well, I along with the majority of people out there were thinking exactly what they had learned and been taught. Turns out, what we were taught, and what was 100% legal had really bad long term side affects. As a result, when studies proved this as well as the Lance Armstrong stuff , the Major League Baseball stuff, NFL stuff, and all competition both people and animals, it was banned.

    For the record, both my wife and I recall breaking a thermometer so we could flick the mercury balls all over the place, and then go eat some candy and lick your fingers. All this while the parents were smoking cigarettes' in the next room, and might fall asleep smoking at night with NO smoke detectors but little kids in the house to grow up breathing that 2nd hand smoke. So please take a minute to realize that many things did not yet exist, like no seat belts, no helmets for bike riders, skate board riders, every kid had a BB gun at minimum, drunk drivers were everywhere. Heck, drunks passed out in the parks were everywhere. And this was in Wash. D.,C. Capital of the United States. Every TV show has the funny drunk guy in it. So please keep in in perceptive.
    Once steroids were banned, that did not stop people from using it but over a time, people started getting caught and we all know how badly that ended.

    The actual banning of all steroidal products did not occur until around 2003? +/-. I'm not sure, but any of us old enough to remember, we all knew all about it.
    I am not positive because I was not involved anymore with the training BUT, if I'm not mistaken, you can administer steroids today in some instances while out of training, however, I have no idea about the timelines involved with that.

    Whatever the case, racing has cleaned that up and without knowing the exacts with withdrawal times, I think it is safe to say that you cannot have steroids on the grounds of a racetrack except for a medical emergency that would have to be administered by a licensed vet, recorded and documented on paper, and that paper work given to ,the Stewards.
    To be clear from when it was still legal, at NO TIME was a Trainer allowed to administer ANY injectable whatsoever. Did it happen? YES ! Did I ever do it. Absolutely NOT. Did most trainers do it? NO. Did every track have there handful of trainers that DID do it. Unfortunately, yes.
    A few years before I left the game, a steroidal came out and trainers loved using it. I had a horse with a ton of deep congestion in his lungs that seemed immune to everything we tried to eradicate it. He had not run yet so he was a 3 year old baby in the spring. The name of that crap escapes me, probably willed that name out of my head, but I used it, and I absolutely HATED IT. No, wait, I F'in hated it!
    I remember getting so upset one morning that I threw it in the muck pit and told my entire barn, heck probably the entire stable area I was so pissed, that we would NEVER have that in my barn again. I really lost my temper. It was very near the end of my career, my mom had passed away, which was the main reason I had stayed as I was mentally done around 1991,2-3 ish but she was still alive. And I was NOT going to leave the track while she was living. It would have shattered her and she had fought alcoholism and at the time was beating it, and there was no way I was going to disturb that.

    I guess that is a story for another day but to finish up, with steroids, I saw for the 1st time in my life, what steroids could do to a horse in a bad way. I had seen all the positive effects of it and like most, assumed it was fine, but as we all know today, it is not.

    I do not think you should worry at all about steroids Lester. In todays drug tests they are looking for that as hard or harder than probably anything else. I could be wrong, but I think it is long gone and if used, that trainer will be long gone in no time at all.

    Whatever todays working time frames are, they are way way out as far as having any in a horses system at the time of the race. Months not days if I remember correctly.

    Hope that helped. Didn't mean to go off the rails for a bit but figured you might want to know more than a yes or no answer.
    I grew up gambling on greyhounds (70's) at Seabrook (NH). As a non smoker I often joked that I would probably die from lung cancer as the 2nd hand smoke in the clubhouse was as dense as the strongest fog you've ever seen. But, I'm still here and lungs are not my largest health issue.

    Leave a comment:


  • Madison
    replied
    Originally posted by str

    When I saw the replay, it looked like the rider had discussed a lead change problem with the trainer prior to the race and was going to help or remind the horse to switch leads. But, just as the rider went to do that by shifting his weight from one stirrup to the other, the horse switched leads on it's own. Because they both occurred at the same time, it looked awkward and that is what that two stride oddity was. It just looked like something else maybe but that from my view was all that it was.

    Overall, this horse IMO just has not learned the full art of running yet. Still a little green. It usually takes time to learn all the little things that goes on for a horse. Simply put, the horse is just not mentally up to speed yet but the ability is certainly there. I would look for an improvement over the next 2-3 races and will be happy to point out those subtleties when watching the reruns in the future.
    Certainly a nice horse to follow. It has a ton of ability.

    Thanks Madison.
    Thank you sir. All things are never ending eye openers to a newbie like me.

    Leave a comment:


  • str
    replied
    Originally posted by lesterdymond
    STR I was curious about the steroid use too and working time frames. Trainers like Moquett, Rice who been in hot water before.
    Ok. Steroids.

    They were legal to use, and really did help horses gain weight, muscle, sometimes aggressiveness, more apatite, which led to more nutrition, and overall growth and better health . That is what you would see. But that was long before it was realized by the people giving it as well as the trainers, owners, and everyone involved including the FDA , that there were serious side affects that came with them. Now, I can already hear the skeptics hollering, "you should have known better., What the hell were you thinking".
    Well, I along with the majority of people out there were thinking exactly what they had learned and been taught. Turns out, what we were taught, and what was 100% legal had really bad long term side affects. As a result, when studies proved this as well as the Lance Armstrong stuff , the Major League Baseball stuff, NFL stuff, and all competition both people and animals, it was banned.

    For the record, both my wife and I recall breaking a thermometer so we could flick the mercury balls all over the place, and then go eat some candy and lick your fingers. All this while the parents were smoking cigarettes' in the next room, and might fall asleep smoking at night with NO smoke detectors but little kids in the house to grow up breathing that 2nd hand smoke. So please take a minute to realize that many things did not yet exist, like no seat belts, no helmets for bike riders, skate board riders, every kid had a BB gun at minimum, drunk drivers were everywhere. Heck, drunks passed out in the parks were everywhere. And this was in Wash. D.,C. Capital of the United States. Every TV show has the funny drunk guy in it. So please keep in in perceptive.
    Once steroids were banned, that did not stop people from using it but over a time, people started getting caught and we all know how badly that ended.

    The actual banning of all steroidal products did not occur until around 2003? +/-. I'm not sure, but any of us old enough to remember, we all knew all about it.
    I am not positive because I was not involved anymore with the training BUT, if I'm not mistaken, you can administer steroids today in some instances while out of training, however, I have no idea about the timelines involved with that.

    Whatever the case, racing has cleaned that up and without knowing the exacts with withdrawal times, I think it is safe to say that you cannot have steroids on the grounds of a racetrack except for a medical emergency that would have to be administered by a licensed vet, recorded and documented on paper, and that paper work given to ,the Stewards.
    To be clear from when it was still legal, at NO TIME was a Trainer allowed to administer ANY injectable whatsoever. Did it happen? YES ! Did I ever do it. Absolutely NOT. Did most trainers do it? NO. Did every track have there handful of trainers that DID do it. Unfortunately, yes.
    A few years before I left the game, a steroidal came out and trainers loved using it. I had a horse with a ton of deep congestion in his lungs that seemed immune to everything we tried to eradicate it. He had not run yet so he was a 3 year old baby in the spring. The name of that crap escapes me, probably willed that name out of my head, but I used it, and I absolutely HATED IT. No, wait, I F'in hated it!
    I remember getting so upset one morning that I threw it in the muck pit and told my entire barn, heck probably the entire stable area I was so pissed, that we would NEVER have that in my barn again. I really lost my temper. It was very near the end of my career, my mom had passed away, which was the main reason I had stayed as I was mentally done around 1991,2-3 ish but she was still alive. And I was NOT going to leave the track while she was living. It would have shattered her and she had fought alcoholism and at the time was beating it, and there was no way I was going to disturb that.

    I guess that is a story for another day but to finish up, with steroids, I saw for the 1st time in my life, what steroids could do to a horse in a bad way. I had seen all the positive effects of it and like most, assumed it was fine, but as we all know today, it is not.

    I do not think you should worry at all about steroids Lester. In todays drug tests they are looking for that as hard or harder than probably anything else. I could be wrong, but I think it is long gone and if used, that trainer will be long gone in no time at all.

    Whatever todays working time frames are, they are way way out as far as having any in a horses system at the time of the race. Months not days if I remember correctly.

    Hope that helped. Didn't mean to go off the rails for a bit but figured you might want to know more than a yes or no answer.

    Leave a comment:


  • lesterdymond
    replied
    STR I was curious about the steroid use too and working time frames. Trainers like Moquett, Rice who been in hot water before.

    Leave a comment:


  • str
    replied
    Originally posted by batt33

    3rd army mule went for 22,000 dam is a producer I would say some conformation issues. It will be interesting to see what hip 554 goes for as a nice pedigree . Same consignor as the 950,000 horse
    I would throw a party if I got one for 22k. These Army Mules seem to overcome big odds regularly from the auction block.

    Leave a comment:


  • str
    replied
    Originally posted by JBEX
    by army mule..colonial downs R7 #5 susan's mule (9-2)@ 3:35
    This is a nice , solid race. The outside horses as well as the Army Mule will be a race in itself. All three like to do the same thing.
    If any of those end up the winner, it will be very well deserved.

    Leave a comment:


  • JBEX
    replied
    by army mule..colonial downs R7 #5 susan's mule (9-2)@ 3:35

    Leave a comment:


  • JBEX
    replied
    Originally posted by batt33

    3rd army mule went for 22,000 dam is a producer I would say some conformation issues. It will be interesting to see what hip 554 goes for as a nice pedigree . Same consignor as the 950,000 horse
    yes i saw the 3rd one went for 22k and agree with what you said about same consignor might be a good sign .. I think the remaining 3 are going tomorrow

    Leave a comment:


  • batt33
    replied
    Originally posted by JBEX
    looks like the 2nd one sold for $175k ..you're right it's 6 altogether
    3rd army mule went for 22,000 dam is a producer I would say some conformation issues. It will be interesting to see what hip 554 goes for as a nice pedigree . Same consignor as the 950,000 horse

    Leave a comment:


  • str
    replied
    Originally posted by lesterdymond
    STR,

    How may races can the dope or Lasix give a horse an edge if any ?
    Do you mean bute when you say dope ?

    As for Lasix , what it does is allow the horse to not bleed which chocks them up . That way they can run to their true ability. That’s why you can’t take them off and put them back on . Once you are “ON “ the horse must stay on Lasix except for the Grade 1 races. And there are other things that can help prevent bleeding but it doesn’t get them high, or lit up, just anti bleeding.
    Let me know about the dope clarification and I will explain it.
    Hope that makes sense .
    Thanks Lester.

    Leave a comment:


  • lesterdymond
    replied
    STR,

    How may races can the dope or Lasix give a horse an edge if any ?

    Leave a comment:


  • JBEX
    replied
    looks like the 2nd one sold for $175k ..you're right it's 6 altogether

    Leave a comment:


  • JBEX
    replied
    Originally posted by batt33
    6 "Army Mules" at the OBS 2 year old in training sales. First one sold was a "homerun" $950'00. second highest of the day I believe.
    yeah I see that..thanks batt

    bought by the owners of army mule when he raced..dam sire violence is one of the best first out sires there is and horse has to be a beast with him on the bottom .. broken record I know but it's just extraordinary considering AM's modest fee at the time of conception

    Leave a comment:


  • batt33
    replied
    6 "Army Mules" at the OBS 2 year old in training sales. First one sold was a "homerun" $950'00. second highest of the day I believe.

    Leave a comment:


  • JBEX
    replied
    Originally posted by str

    I thought I saw 62,500 but no biggie. That would make sense though, being 25% higher than a claiming 50k, which they probably offer now and then. That odd amount would allow for a claimed 50k horse to run back in the next claiming rank up without necessarily having to run in an allowance race.

    The beauty of running for the 62,500 amount is it would allow you to win the same race twice. Once as a claimer, and again as an A other than maiden or claiming. Two wins in the same condition.

    Is it somewhat of a gamble. Oh yeah. Welcome to the cat and mouse game of claiming. I did it all the time and people asked me why I didn't bet on the horses very often. It is stuff like this I was betting on. And a lot more than I would have bet at the windows.
    my mistake ..think it is $62.5 ..really would seem about right for where WG is at this poin..whether it's two shots in the alw optional claimer or up from a 50k n2l if it was available

    can see how these must be tough decisions ..to lose a 3yo via claim who shows some talent and goes on to win some nice races must be to say the least..frustrating

    Leave a comment:


  • str
    replied
    Originally posted by JBEX


    thought it was a $65k n2L claiming race
    by what you said but see it's actually a race she'd qualify under the allowance n2L condition and not be up for sale .. $65k would be an odd amount for a clm n2L race and that's what made me look
    I thought I saw 62,500 but no biggie. That would make sense though, being 25% higher than a claiming 50k, which they probably offer now and then. That odd amount would allow for a claimed 50k horse to run back in the next claiming rank up without necessarily having to run in an allowance race.

    The beauty of running for the 62,500 amount is it would allow you to win the same race twice. Once as a claimer, and again as an A other than maiden or claiming. Two wins in the same condition.

    Is it somewhat of a gamble. Oh yeah. Welcome to the cat and mouse game of claiming. I did it all the time and people asked me why I didn't bet on the horses very often. It is stuff like this I was betting on. And a lot more than I would have bet at the windows.

    Leave a comment:


  • str
    replied
    Originally posted by Madison

    Kind of agree, but only 3rd start, plus 2nd back after a long layoff. I'll defer to our mentor/master to critique.
    When I saw the replay, it looked like the rider had discussed a lead change problem with the trainer prior to the race and was going to help or remind the horse to switch leads. But, just as the rider went to do that by shifting his weight from one stirrup to the other, the horse switched leads on it's own. Because they both occurred at the same time, it looked awkward and that is what that two stride oddity was. It just looked like something else maybe but that from my view was all that it was.

    Overall, this horse IMO just has not learned the full art of running yet. Still a little green. It usually takes time to learn all the little things that goes on for a horse. Simply put, the horse is just not mentally up to speed yet but the ability is certainly there. I would look for an improvement over the next 2-3 races and will be happy to point out those subtleties when watching the reruns in the future.
    Certainly a nice horse to follow. It has a ton of ability.

    Thanks Madison.

    Leave a comment:


  • JBEX
    replied
    Originally posted by JBEX

    amazing to the novice how much goes into getting a horse to perform at there best and cool to get a glimpse of it like you gave ..guess it's a natural thing fir you to see a young horse who shows a lot of potential but appears not to be spotted right or have races spaced optimally ... especially if the sire's army mule ..sure you would get the most out of her and probably as a young 3yo be an exciting prospect to work with .. you see lots of upside potential and feel it's not out of the question she could return to listed stakes races again ..pretty cool

    spot at laurel would be perfect and get a little extra protection at a $65k tag..in addition allowance races at laurel probably more in her range vs the ones in arkansas or ky so there'd be a good path to follow .. if you got a horse like that via claim or just a trainer change seems like a challenge you would've relished to take on back when you were active

    thought it was a $65k n2L claiming race
    by what you said but see it's actually a race she'd qualify under the allowance n2L condition and not be up for sale .. $65k would be an odd amount for a clm n2L race and that's what made me look

    Leave a comment:


  • JBEX
    replied
    by army mule .. gulfstream R4 #6 human desire (3-1) @ 2:26

    Leave a comment:


  • Madison
    replied
    Originally posted by batt33
    He really took off down the stretch when he finally changed leads.... looked like the jockey and him were fighting at the top of the stretch.
    Kind of agree, but only 3rd start, plus 2nd back after a long layoff. I'll defer to our mentor/master to critique.

    Leave a comment:

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