If a creator was involved, doesn't that carry over to know all?
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there is no need for gotcha moments... the bible contradicts itself over and over again and science proves its complete fiction... made up bullshit...very little about it is factual... bottom line... if the bible is fiction, why do people have this warped imagination that its main character is somehow real and we are somehow here because of two other characters who were tricked by a talking snake .. jaaaaaaaysus wake the fukk up
kvb, if throw a name out there, its nothing personal, only applies to your thoughts on this issue... and again i type the way i talk... its a friendly discussion.. i would talk to everyone the same way.. no harm meant... but you and others simply dont realize how foolish your beliefs in the unproven are... being threatened , with a higher power, is an awful epidemic that will always cause more harm that good... facts are in front of your face and you ignore them ... i feel really bad that so many have this mental disorder...its not your fault, its your parents and others you grew up around...and they cant help their close minded ignorance either...brainwashing is evil, unless it involves the religious... I guess
are you going to touch on any of my questions, since you know the book so well, that is... there must be some reasoning behind your interpretation of the "story" ... that was really just another piece of scripture thrown out there in the middle of all the other jibberishComment -
Raydog, it's difficult to converse with you because you throw things out there with little basis.
The bible does not contradict itself over and over, whether you believe in it or not. I mentioned there are a few tough spots, but you are nowhere near being able to tackle those.
A story is a story, whether you believe it or not, it doesn't change the story. You change the story.
Jtoler is right about "gotcha moments" and I am right when I say your process in this instance is best described as eisegesis.
I did not grow up in the church or around those in the church. I lived some 30 years on this earth without ever taking a leap of faith and rarely being challenged to. With so many wrong assumptions made under an agenda, especially the one that everyone else has an agenda, it's difficult to converse with you.
I know you want to argue and I wish I could say it's difficult to converse with you because you make tough, valid points in argument; but for the most part, on this topic, you don't.
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i dont want to argue, i want answers... or at least more awful excuses
i guess what i dont understand about the 120yr scenario is this...
if god wasnt talking about how long he would let man live, then he was talking about creating mankind and killing mankind in the next 120yrs... if this is the case, then god knew he was going to create evil and dispicable humans, who he knew would disobey him and do evil things and in return, he knew he would end up killing...i guess for what? the fun of it? god needed trail and error???
if your interpretation is correct, then these are the underlying words of this scripture, no?...this isnt a trick question , its more common sense... is this point valid enough for you? because apparently, the other points, that were common sense and backed by scientific proof, werent enough for you to understand...
i ask you , who in their right minds would want to obey and give praise to the most cruel force in the universe??Comment -
Any revelations today?Comment -
so? whats the final verdict hereComment -
the best thing kvb said in this thread is that the bible is a work of literature... thats true.. its a book... a completely fictional book, not meant to be taken literally... unfortunately, christians are threatened , with god and heaven, to take it literally... when will the brainwashing end?
the worst thing he said is that im not making valid points... he is a typical religious person who is in complete denial of facts and the obvious... believing what you are told, without a shred of evidence, in the past or in todays everyday life, is not only a disorder, its dangerous... too many people stuck inside a religious box... no questions being asked, accepting pain and turmoil as if it was brought upon them, SPECIFICALLY, to test them.... all the people in the world and the god fearing think they are being singled out by a higher power for something
.. shit is too damn funny... throw coincidence and randomness totally out of the window only makes you look foolish.
being threatened, not to ask questions, is a way to keep the sheep in order... this will never changeComment -
He's saying there are a few verses that could make one see something contradictory with no understanding... But you haven't address any of them. Main thing I see from you ray, is the question... If God were real, why let so much pain occur, rape, killings, aids and ext. ..and every person is different every situation is different with God own intended purpose. I take Gods word fundamentally and literal ... By the way everything I've discussed here, I did not learn at a bible college or some school... My own independent research in to the word, with serious dedication and prayer... God gave understanding where I had none, but I appreciate KVB correction if I'm wrong on something and also appreciate him saying I wear my armor well, I don't claim to know it all ..the best thing kvb said in this thread is that the bible is a work of literature... thats true.. its a book... a completely fictional book, not meant to be taken literally... unfortunately, christians are threatened , with god and heaven, to take it literally... when will the brainwashing end?
the worst thing he said is that im not making valid points... he is a typical religious person who is in complete denial of facts and the obvious... believing what you are told, without a shred of evidence, in the past or in todays everyday life, is not only a disorder, its dangerous... too many people stuck inside a religious box... no questions being asked, accepting pain and turmoil as if it was brought upon them, SPECIFICALLY, to test them.... all the people in the world and the god fearing think they are being singled out by a higher power for something .. shit is too damn funny... throw coincidence and randomness totally out of the window only makes you look foolish.
being threatened, not to ask questions, is a way to keep the sheep in order... this will never change
but pain will be a part of the world raydog, as long as we turn our back on God and continue to sin .. Pains not going anywhere..Comment -
Bible is a book for application not just reading, you want to understand, follow the step by step guide to getting to know God.Comment -
Raydog is not reading my posts or not understanding them, or choosing not to understand.
I corrected the thread on a story from the Bible. Whether you, I or anyone believes the story is true irrelevant. The story was wrong and out of context. The thread says there were four little pigs, I’m telling you the story is about 3 little pigs. That’s the fact. Whether the pigs existed or built houses doesn’t matter. It’s not some wild defensive interpretation.
Really? Now aren’t we wasting our time? This isn’t a question of “interpretation.” Never was.
Who again cherry picked a scripture and created an alternate story around it? Just to waste time or perhaps to try and prove this statement…
This is a tough issue to tackle even for the scholars because the statement can be argued as false. In the few instances where this question is tough, Raydog is nowhere near tackling them. Why? Because he has an agenda and keeps firing empty bullets.
It doesn’t look good to make this assertion about contradiction then tell the story wrong to show the contradiction. I will assume rayodog just didn’t know the story and grabbed a flashpoint mainstream falsehood and ran with it.
The only alternative is that he purposely changed the story to continue to knowingly, falsely argue. In which case, SBR members would likely bury him, perhaps I am now.
That raydog is using a scenario that is nonacademic and inconsistent with the literature and is actually arguing about it. That it appears raydog has done this to further an agenda that the bible is full of contradiction.
Instead, he could have taken an actual story and shown its contradiction….or could he?
I could post over and over again that there is no juice or seeds in an orange. At one point readers have to question whether I’ve actually opened an orange and looked inside or just want to argue.
These are the invalid points I’m talking about. They are very specific. Raydog, not getting it, still arguing interpretation, goes on…
This too is invalid. Raydog does not know me, not one bit. This is proof. Yet you still attack, more empty bullets. I have not entered this part of the conversation as a follower or believer, just as someone who actually read the story.
I’m trying to tell raydog…
I am very specific on where raydog fails to make valid points and it isn't a matter of interpretation. Raydog has an agenda, will not see facts, wants it to be interpretation when it is not, and frustrated with his own questions of how and why, he attacks anyone who tries to help.
Raydog, I understand that you cannot reconcile bad things happening in the world with the concept of some benevolent god behind it. That’s not easy by any means.
It could do you good to understand that everyone likely has an idea of a perfect world…it may not agree with your idea. “There mustn’t be a god because if there was such and such would never happen, it’s not logical.” This is a dangerous small picture rationale; I can assure you that my arguments for no god are much more sophisticated, even if no more valid.
But Raydog, you are difficult to converse with because it doesn’t seem to be that you understand what the book says, or many posts about it. Your skills in logic, science, and common sense, all of which you are riding on may not be as strong as you think.
Here’s a start. Try actually reading the stories, for real. If you have read them, read them again without the eisegesis.
Maybe then you can get to a level of discussion that doesn’t have you replying to every intelligent post with…
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It's a constant source of amusement than creationists will insist that most of evolution is unprovable because we didn't directly observe it, but everything that happened several thousand years ago they claim as "proof' can't be directly observed either
Sorry freezer, none of what you quoted contradicts what it's claimed Jesus said straight out, that the law shall remain unchanged.
Have read the scripture a bit, among other things...part of being open minded
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You came from an animal?It's a constant source of amusement than creationists will insist that most of evolution is unprovable because we didn't directly observe it, but everything that happened several thousand years ago they claim as "proof' can't be directly observed either
Sorry freezer, none of what you quoted contradicts what it's claimed Jesus said straight out, that the law shall remain unchanged.
Have read the scripture a bit, among other things...part of being open mindedComment -
BoldIt's a constant source of amusement than creationists will insist that most of evolution is unprovable because we didn't directly observe it, but everything that happened several thousand years ago they claim as "proof' can't be directly observed either
We are claiming it true, by the unseen that is verifiable, love, peace, long suffering, joy, faith, things unseen but real... but not science, the burden lays on science to disprove.
Sorry freezer, none of what you quoted contradicts what it's claimed Jesus said straight out, that the law shall remain unchanged.
the law is unchanged, and still stands for those who don't accept the deal, to take the gift of the Holy Spirit, leaving your accuser with nothing to bring against you. We die by the flesh we will be accused by the flesh and the law..
Have read the scripture a bit, among other things...part of being open minded
good bud, I read some of the stuff to try to understand you guys but when it comes down to it...ok I have a question, can a bear evolve to a whale ?Comment -
One question. If we came from animals or the sea as some say. How come everyone didn't transform? Bi mean why were some still left behind to remain fish and so forth.Comment -
That's the exact opposite of how it works freezer; the burden is on folks to prove something is true, not for people to disprove any random assertion that someone claims...otherwise anyone could make up anything, and as long as they were careful to make it unfalsifiable, we'd have to treat it the same as actual facts
Do you happen to have a quote from the bible that supports your claim, which is that the law only applies to those who don't accept jesus?
In theory a bear's descendants could evolve into whales given the right environmental conditions. As it seems to have happened, a common ancestor of the two produced descendants which diverged into the two, among many others. Evidenced by the genetic similarities which are unlikely to have evolved separately.
We didn't evolve from fish; we had a common ancestor which produced descendants who split into different groups and adapted to various environments with less competition. The existing environment wouldn't be deserted, because it still supported life.Comment -
Just like which came first the chicken or the egg.Comment -
BoldThat's the exact opposite of how it works freezer; the burden is on folks to prove something is true, not for people to disprove any random assertion that someone claims...otherwise anyone could make up anything, and as long as they were careful to make it unfalsifiable, we'd have to treat it the same as actual facts
I've given a lot of proof along with others here as well. They are proof, they've shared a personal experience, and going out of our way to do so, and what about these fruits of the spirit, they exist, love, care, joy, peace, ?
Do you happen to have a quote from the bible that supports your claim, which is that the law only applies to those who don't accept jesus?
You should read what Paul said, who understood the matter more then most, 70% of the new testament was written by Paul. He's corrected Peter on a few matters and Peter even wrote how wise Paul was and said woe to those who don't understand what Paul writes and distorts scripture to there own destruction .. Paul details this well in Romans 6,7 & 8 ..the transformation from flesh to spirit.
Galatians 5:18
Living by the Spirit
…17For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
In theory a bear's descendants could evolve into whales given the right environmental conditions. As it seems to have happened, a common ancestor of the two produced descendants which diverged into the two, among many others. Evidenced by the genetic similarities which are unlikely to have evolved separately.
That Darwin himself must have had doubts about his statement, "I can see no difficulty in a race of bears being rendered, by natural selection, more and more aquatic in their habits, with larger and larger mouths, till a creature was produced as monstrous as a whale," since it was dropped from later editions of the Origin of the Species. (Why Darwin would only mention the mouth, and none of the other inconceivably complex modifications that would have to take place to turn a bear into a whale is not clear. It is also not clear why the assumption is simply that a whale has a larger mouth than a bear, as opposed to a mouth that is totally different in structure and function, and not just in size)
We didn't evolve from fish; we had a common ancestor which produced descendants who split into different groups and adapted to various environments with less competition. The existing environment wouldn't be deserted, because it still supported life.Comment -
Freeze, your "proof" is just people saying they think some stuff happened. It proves nothing, except maybe that they think it. When someone's unproven opinion goes against the well-proven nature of reality, it's not hard for a rational person to decide what to believe.
Interesting take on the law, and interesting that you're willing to take Peter's word for it instead of the supposedly-direct quote from Jesus. You're claiming that if you are "led by the Spirit", you're free from all law? The people who don't believe in the mythology need to follow its laws, but the people who believe don't? Why are Christians so caught up about the 10 commandments then?
The mouth was mentioned because he was discussing bears swimming with their mouths open to catch insects, like whales. Darwin omitted the passage, but didn't seem to harbor any doubts, as he stated post-revision that he had no doubts it could be accomplished. There's no shortage of attacks against Darwin's books, creationists trying to pick apart a 150+ year old book as if somehow thinking finding a misstep in it will disprove the mountains of evidence discovered since....most of these arguments fall apart with a similarly short search on google and a few minutes worth of reading, if one feels like it instead of simply stopping when finding something that appears to support one's assumptions
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Freeze, your "proof" is just people saying they think some stuff happened. It proves nothing, except maybe that they think it. When someone's unproven opinion goes against the well-proven nature of reality, it's not hard for a rational person to decide what to believe.
You've said nothing of the fruits of the spirit ...still.
Interesting take on the law, and interesting that you're willing to take Peter's word for it instead of the supposedly-direct quote from Jesus. You're claiming that if you are "led by the Spirit", you're free from all law? The people who don't believe in the mythology need to follow its laws, but the people who believe don't? Why are Christians so caught up about the 10 commandments then?
Actually it's Paul not Peter but yes, they all agree, and yes I'm not claiming this.....this is Gods Word written by the Spirit, if you live in the Spirit against such there is no law...
Galatians 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
The mouth was mentioned because he was discussing bears swimming with their mouths open to catch insects, like whales. Darwin omitted the passage, but didn't seem to harbor any doubts, as he stated post-revision that he had no doubts it could be accomplished. There's no shortage of attacks against Darwin's books, creationists trying to pick apart a 150+ year old book as if somehow thinking finding a misstep in it will disprove the mountains of evidence discovered since....most of these arguments fall apart with a similarly short search on google and a few minutes worth of reading, if one feels like it instead of simply stopping when finding something that appears to support one's assumptions
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The Purpose of the LawInteresting take on the law, and interesting that you're willing to take Peter's word for it instead of the supposedly-direct quote from Jesus. You're claiming that if you are "led by the Spirit", you're free from all law? The people who don't believe in the mythology need to follow its laws, but the people who believe don't? Why are Christians so caught up about the 10 commandments then?
…23But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.Comment -
religion is very comforting
i wish i could still believe in itComment -
The "fruits of the spirit" are human behaviors for which no belief in the Christian God or any god is necessary, and are extensions of seemingly altruistic but evolutionary behaviors.
Sorry, Paul, not Peter, misread that and didn't go back to the source material So the bible boils down to "Forget the rest of this book, just believe that this one dude is god and you get a free pass in this world"? Sounds even more delusional than the original. Regardless, I think Christianity is suffering from a massive marketing failure then; all they'd have to do is say "Claim you believe in this dude and the law doesn't apply to you!", and membership would quickly rise. World would be a much worse place to live in, but I guess that's just an acceptable loss; why care about good times in the world we know exists when we might have the world that someone told us exists, which is conveniently unobservable? 
Yes, the link you posted repeats the same error, repeating the "you weren't there so you can't know" argument. Same thing could be said about everything Christianity is based on right? The major difference is we can see the results of evolution among us today; our bodies' continued existence is enabled by the simple organisms we came from (cell organelles), and the trail of evolutionary evidence is so widespread that our common ancestry is undeniable to anyone not rooted firmly in contradictory opinions.Comment -
BoldThe "fruits of the spirit" are human behaviors for which no belief in the Christian God or any god is necessary, and are extensions of seemingly altruistic but evolutionary behaviors.
Sorry, Paul, not Peter, misread that and didn't go back to the source material So the bible boils down to "Forget the rest of this book, just believe that this one dude is god and you get a free pass in this world"? Sounds even more delusional than the original. Regardless, I think Christianity is suffering from a massive marketing failure then; all they'd have to do is say "Claim you believe in this dude and the law doesn't apply to you!", and membership would quickly rise. World would be a much worse place to live in, but I guess that's just an acceptable loss; why care about good times in the world we know exists when we might have the world that someone told us exists, which is conveniently unobservable?
Your not understanding what it's saying... The law is a tutor .. How would you know if your doing wrong or not if it weren't by the law, the law is where we start from, once into the Spirit you go further then what the law represents, so we still keep Gods commands but in the Spirit, it's God working through us and we go further then what the law requires, like love your enemies type of stuff, not a command just something that's done through the Spirit.
Yes, the link you posted repeats the same error, repeating the "you weren't there so you can't know" argument. Same thing could be said about everything Christianity is based on right? The major difference is we can see the results of evolution among us today; our bodies' continued existence is enabled by the simple organisms we came from (cell organelles), and the trail of evolutionary evidence is so widespread that our common ancestry is undeniable to anyone not rooted firmly in contradictory opinions.
I don't see it that way, why would Darwin redact that statement from his book if he were so confident? Zoologist today argue with one another about the bear to whale concept, don't know how you can dismiss it in a small paragraph with no explanation other then " you weren't there so you can't know "
but historical Jesus, do you believe He was real or no? There's evidence all over Israel of God by His followers through time, so why would we have to be there if we have had an experience with Him ourselves ? And history corresponds with that.
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Lol.. Kvb you are cracking me up... Until you can establish the difference between Proven fact and fiction, I'll stop addressing you here... You have ignored every single simple question I asked you to look into... Apparently, you don't care to address your God creating evil men, on purpose, so he has an excuse to kill them all off... You are to the point where you ignore every fact and piece of logic I provide.. It's okay, you are another weak minded, gullible sheep who doesn't care if scripture is proven false... You can't help it... Again, you don't ask questions to the suspicious, so your mind stays in a little box and you simply accept what the bible says, no matter if it's scientifically proven impossible.. You're guys are too funny .. Have a good day.. I'll have a better oneComment -
Look raydog, you really don't know me. If you want to tear down the Bible and people who've read it, by all means. I do it all the time. Only my conversations have a modicum of intelligence to them.
All I'm saying is use the actual book to do it, don't make alternate stories to do it, it really hurts you'r credibility.
And so what if the stories had God creating evil men and killing them off? If you've read the book you'll see it has God as one ruthless muthafukka in many instances. Nobody ignores these parts of the story, many have read them and had questions of why, just like yours, answered.
If you want to know what the three little pigs built there houses out of, read the story.
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So you're saying that christians should still follow the law, but not because it's the law? If that's the case, you're right back to what Jesus said about the law not changing, and you not following it in law or spirit
Darwin didn't redact anything; it was omitted from later revisions, but as I said, he still expressed his belief that it could be so. Again, he didn't say that bears turned into whales; he said that bears could evolve large mouths like whales under the right conditions. The "you weren't there so you can't know" argument isn't mine; I facetiously borrowed it from creationism and you yourself, as the main objection against evolution
It seems likely there's a basis for the mythology, and that there was a guy named Jesus. There are also several Jesus' in MLB alone, and all of them are about as likely to be divine as historical jesus was.Comment -
BoldSo you're saying that christians should still follow the law, but not because it's the law? If that's the case, you're right back to what Jesus said about the law not changing, and you not following it in law or spirit
Im saying the commandments are followed if your following the Holy Spirit.
Galatians 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Darwin didn't redact anything; it was omitted from later revisions, but as I said, he still expressed his belief that it could be so. Again, he didn't say that bears turned into whales; he said that bears could evolve large mouths like whales under the right conditions. The "you weren't there so you can't know" argument isn't mine; I facetiously borrowed it from creationism and you yourself, as the main objection against evolution
Why would he express it could be so, but omit it from his book ? Little contradictory ..
It seems likely there's a basis for the mythology, and that there was a guy named Jesus. There are also several Jesus' in MLB alone, and all of them are about as likely to be divine as historical jesus was.
Yes, but this particular Jesus has more written about Him in this period of history then any other. Eye witnesses including the apostles prove the Messiah true, and the Spirit written books testify to that.
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The Spirit said you should follow the Law, so if you're following the Spirit, you should follow the law...seems pretty simple. Nobody's saying there are any laws against joy, peace etc...
I couldn't tell you; perhaps he thought it distracted from the point he was trying to make in the writing? Revisions happen all the time for similar reasons. Regardless, he clearly didn't think it was implausible.
Yup, this particular Jesus had more myths recorded about him...same as Zeus, Odin, and many other more entertaining deities. Plenty of eyewitness accounts for those guys too, and yet you rightly doubt their validity...you just need to extend that same critical thinking one-three deities farther and you'll have it figured out
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