Kentucky derby thread thoughts and predictions . Keep it going only derby picks

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  • cbiscuit
    SBR Wise Guy
    • 03-14-07
    • 633

    #211
    Originally posted by mikemca
    because he is a anchor anywhere but Churchill Downs

    jk I dunno
    Calvin did not help ROC chances today. If he wasn't so keen on his rail-skimming rides and sent ROC outside 10 seconds earlier, he could have hit board. He stormed home once outside.
    Comment
    • cbiscuit
      SBR Wise Guy
      • 03-14-07
      • 633

      #212
      Originally posted by chaka
      you don't think danza carrying 8 more pounds vs last race just 3 weeks ago wont affect him?

      im pretty green at this but I seen danza tiring bigtime from the extra weight. Rest of the field has been carrying 122-124 regularly


      I know you are big on Wildcat Red but seems GenArod has been within a head with WR the last 3 Head to head races....seem interchangeable horses
      Your lean toward GenArod was wise regardless of outcome, better price, better pedigree for this and you knew WildRed was an easy toss after hideous works. Aneed the lead type horse toiling on CD track a few days before big race = not good.
      Comment
      • mikemca
        SBR Posting Legend
        • 03-10-10
        • 10047

        #213
        Originally posted by cbiscuit
        Calvin did not help ROC chances today. If he wasn't so keen on his rail-skimming rides and sent ROC outside 10 seconds earlier, he could have hit board. He stormed home once outside.

        Need to watch the race some more but there were several hidden good efforts.


        Originally posted by cbiscuit
        Your lean toward GenArod was wise regardless of outcome, better price, better pedigree for this and you knew WildRed was an easy toss after hideous works. Aneed the lead type horse toiling on CD track a few days before big race = not good.
        I think if anything this race went to show that all the workout hype by drf and others isn't too important.The top two supposedly looked bad while all the hype on Medal Count and Intense Holiday was just that.
        Comment
        • TonyP
          SBR Hall of Famer
          • 09-20-09
          • 8478

          #214
          hear there was a stong head wind in the stretch so the times are not as good in the KD as they would have been without the strong wind, also the performace was fairly strong
          Comment
          • dballard125
            SBR Rookie
            • 04-14-14
            • 4

            #215
            Originally posted by TonyP
            hear there was a stong head wind in the stretch so the times are not as good in the KD as they would have been without the strong wind, also the performace was fairly strong

            I was on the backside yesterday, and this is true. There was a 20-25 mph headwind in the stretch all day.
            Comment
            • TonyP
              SBR Hall of Famer
              • 09-20-09
              • 8478

              #216
              it also looked to me like when he was asked to go he went then when Espinoza looked back seen no one challenging he rode out with plenty in tank for preakness.
              Comment
              • harthebar
                SBR Posting Legend
                • 12-09-11
                • 15708

                #217
                You are so right, he went from post 19 to rail and top of stretch he went from rail back to post 19, and he ran into about 5-6 horses in the back, and the 3 at top of strectch, that made him swing wide, he should of raced on the outside the entire, way,..he would have finished 3-4
                Originally posted by cbiscuit
                calvin did not help roc chances today. If he wasn't so keen on his rail-skimming rides and sent roc outside 10 seconds earlier, he could have hit board. He stormed home once outside.
                Comment
                • cbiscuit
                  SBR Wise Guy
                  • 03-14-07
                  • 633

                  #218
                  Originally posted by mikemca
                  Need to watch the race some more but there were several hidden good efforts.




                  I think if anything this race went to show that all the workout hype by drf and others isn't too important.The top two supposedly looked bad while all the hype on Medal Count and Intense Holiday was just that.
                  Right, Welch was skeptical on CalC but other clockers thought he was okay, can't remember what I heard about CommCurv now. But I do use workouts as a tool for TC races, these are developing 3yo that improve in leaps or level off/regress. WildRed, was not using him any way but his very slow workout made him an easy toss in my book for example. The best working horses don't always get it done but you'd rather have your horses acting like they are coming up for a big effort. FWIW, I thought the best 3 lookers in post parade (but none were standouts) were Dance With Fate, Tapiture and Intense Holiday and they didn't fare too well.
                  Comment
                  • cbiscuit
                    SBR Wise Guy
                    • 03-14-07
                    • 633

                    #219
                    Originally posted by harthebar
                    You are so right, he went from post 19 to rail and top of stretch he went from rail back to post 19, and he ran into about 5-6 horses in the back, and the 3 at top of strectch, that made him swing wide, he should of raced on the outside the entire, way,..he would have finished 3-4
                    Not hating on Calvin now but if he just left the horse out in middle figuring best path entering stretch he may have been in the exacta. Now wondering if they change riders for Prkns? Calivn on half the time but others ride him also.
                    Comment
                    • mikemca
                      SBR Posting Legend
                      • 03-10-10
                      • 10047

                      #220
                      Wildcat Red wasn't getting the distance bad workout or not.Even when CD is playing speed friendly it is much more demanding than GP.

                      I saw quite a few people liking Curve beforehand but it was because of his figs and past races.

                      I agree about workouts and get work reports pretty often but I had this conversation before the derby on another board.It's like people handicap one way 364 days a year and then on derby day they throw everything out the window and go by who clockers say looks good.

                      A horse working phenomenal at 5 or 6 furlongs doesn't tell you anything about going 10f.It just tells you they are in good health.I find the reports are great for maiden races otherwise they are a small part of the equation.
                      Comment
                      • str
                        SBR Posting Legend
                        • 01-12-09
                        • 11754

                        #221
                        Originally posted by dballard125
                        I was on the backside yesterday, and this is true. There was a 20-25 mph headwind in the stretch all day.
                        This will favor the horses towards the lead and hinder the deep closers. Vice versa when it blows the other way when that strong.
                        Comment
                        • str
                          SBR Posting Legend
                          • 01-12-09
                          • 11754

                          #222
                          Originally posted by mikemca
                          Wildcat Red wasn't getting the distance bad workout or not.Even when CD is playing speed friendly it is much more demanding than GP.

                          I saw quite a few people liking Curve beforehand but it was because of his figs and past races.

                          I agree about workouts and get work reports pretty often but I had this conversation before the derby on another board.It's like people handicap one way 364 days a year and then on derby day they throw everything out the window and go by who clockers say looks good.

                          A horse working phenomenal at 5 or 6 furlongs doesn't tell you anything about going 10f.It just tells you they are in good health.I find the reports are great for maiden races otherwise they are a small part of the equation.
                          The 48 and 112 fractions at Gulfstream in the Fla. derby had me wondering about how hot the pace would be. No wonder they ran 1,2,3 gate to wire. They could have gone around again after that. I caved to the hype. Stupid me.

                          It means something when they really seem to be blossoming at the right time when it comes to the Derby but I agree Mike, a lot of people put WAY too much in to what clockers say. If I had booked every bet they made during my time at the track, I never would have left. Don't get me wrong, some really get it but most don't and how can anyone say how well or poorly a horse looks unless they have seen that horse work 20 times at least over the last year. The only way you would truly know is if you had something to compare to. It's hype most of the time and yes, nobody considers that stuff the rest of the year. And right again, a horse working in front of an empty grandstand in the AM has no bearing on how they will run twice as far with a packed house and all the noise that comes with it, in the PM. Great for firsters as you said.
                          Comment
                          • harthebar
                            SBR Posting Legend
                            • 12-09-11
                            • 15708

                            #223
                            Str , i really know nothing about clockers, but explain it to me, when the horses work out in the morning arent the times reported, or is it an unofficial workout that your out there with your horse and guys are just watching the horses,, when you do those types of works, does the general public clockers always know who the horse is, do they have any colors on, to tell , how would you get a true read, there is no traffic, ,how can one tell other than the jock and trainer ,
                            Originally posted by str
                            the 48 and 112 fractions at gulfstream in the fla. Derby had me wondering about how hot the pace would be. No wonder they ran 1,2,3 gate to wire. They could have gone around again after that. I caved to the hype. Stupid me.

                            It means something when they really seem to be blossoming at the right time when it comes to the derby but i agree mike, a lot of people put way too much in to what clockers say. If i had booked every bet they made during my time at the track, i never would have left. Don't get me wrong, some really get it but most don't and how can anyone say how well or poorly a horse looks unless they have seen that horse work 20 times at least over the last year. The only way you would truly know is if you had something to compare to. It's hype most of the time and yes, nobody considers that stuff the rest of the year. And right again, a horse working in front of an empty grandstand in the am has no bearing on how they will run twice as far with a packed house and all the noise that comes with it, in the pm. Great for firsters as you said.
                            Comment
                            • str
                              SBR Posting Legend
                              • 01-12-09
                              • 11754

                              #224
                              Originally posted by harthebar
                              Str , i really know nothing about clockers, but explain it to me, when the horses work out in the morning arent the times reported, or is it an unofficial workout that your out there with your horse and guys are just watching the horses,, when you do those types of works, does the general public clockers always know who the horse is, do they have any colors on, to tell , how would you get a true read, there is no traffic, ,how can one tell other than the jock and trainer ,
                              The clockers know each trainers saddle towel colors as well as their riders that work for them. They see them every day. If they are not sure who a horse is, they will call the trainer and ask them. They can verify who the trainer said the horse was by writing down the horses markings , like a white left hind leg and things like that and checking the foal papers in the racing office. No horse is allowed on the grounds without papers with all markings so they can be identified. If you lie to them, ok, you get by them once or twice, but when you get caught, and you will, you are screwed as they will report it to the Stewards. So, you can't lie. You would have to be an idiot. They work for and are paid by the DRF and it is their job to report works for the public. They are there from 6AM(5;30 in the summer)when the track opens, and they stay until it closes for training , usually at 10AM, everyday. Nothing gets by them.
                              Comment
                              • harthebar
                                SBR Posting Legend
                                • 12-09-11
                                • 15708

                                #225
                                YEA BUT DONT THEY HAVE TO REPORT ALL WORKOUT ANY TO THE DRF. WHATS THE BIG ADVANTAGE.
                                YOU MADE ME THINK OF A MOVIE, ITS A BLACK AND WHITE, BEST HORSE RACING MOVIE I EVER SEEN, YOU HAVE TO SEE, THE HORSE IN THE MOVIE IS CALLED WHITE CARGO...DO YOU KNOW THE MOVIE.....I THINK PECK IS IN IT

                                Turner Classic Movies presents the greatest classic films of all time from one of the largest film libraries in the world. Find extensive video, photos, articles, forums, and archival content from some of the best movies ever made only at TCM.com.


                                Originally posted by str
                                The clockers know each trainers saddle towel colors as well as their riders that work for them. They see them every day. If they are not sure who a horse is, they will call the trainer and ask them. They can verify who the trainer said the horse was by writing down the horses markings , like a white left hind leg and things like that and checking the foal papers in the racing office. No horse is allowed on the grounds without papers with all markings so they can be identified. If you lie to them, ok, you get by them once or twice, but when you get caught, and you will, you are screwed as they will report it to the Stewards. So, you can't lie. You would have to be an idiot. They work for and are paid by the DRF and it is their job to report works for the public. They are there from 6AM(5;30 in the summer)when the track opens, and they stay until it closes for training , usually at 10AM, everyday. Nothing gets by them.
                                Comment
                                • harthebar
                                  SBR Posting Legend
                                  • 12-09-11
                                  • 15708

                                  #226
                                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvYu2h0YXIM WATCH THIS CLIP
                                  Comment
                                  • mikemca
                                    SBR Posting Legend
                                    • 03-10-10
                                    • 10047

                                    #227
                                    Originally posted by harthebar
                                    YEA BUT DONT THEY HAVE TO REPORT ALL WORKOUT ANY TO THE DRF. WHATS THE BIG ADVANTAGE.
                                    The final time of the work is meaningless

                                    Anyone can encourage their horse to run a 46 half or 59 5f.

                                    It's how they do it that makes workout reports valuable.

                                    For instance Horse A worked 59 flat with the rider still as a statue
                                    Horse B worked 59 flat under mild/heavy encouragement

                                    Also Horse A worked 59 flat going out in 26 but flying home in last furlong in 11 is a lot different then Horse B going out in 23 and stumbling home in 13.

                                    Just about all trainers will work them slow for the first 3/4 of the drill and then have them come home fast with a nice gallop out

                                    That's also another thing reports give is after the official workout time is over they give you the gallop out time

                                    Worked in 59 then galloped out 6f in 1:12 and 7f in 1:26

                                    A horse that is raring to go is hard to pull up


                                    There are a bunch of services .I think DRF just got in the game the last few years.I liked bruno de julio until he started thinking his w/o reports were worth more than they are.
                                    Comment
                                    • harthebar
                                      SBR Posting Legend
                                      • 12-09-11
                                      • 15708

                                      #228
                                      GINO THE GUY ON TVG....WHO ARE SOME COMPANIES THAT REPORT THEM , IM CURIOUS HOW IT WORKS, OR HOW THEY LAY IT OUT.I GET WHAT YOUR SAYING, SO WHAT DOES THE OFFICIAL WORKOUT MEAN..... ITS WHAT YOU JUST SAID, BUT ITS HOW THEY DO IT.....MEANING HORSE A CAN HAVE FASTEST WORK OF THE DAY SO THEY LIST IT AS 1/21 BUT HE COULD HAVE worked 59 flat with the rider still as a statue SO BASICALLY HE COULD HAVE GONE MUCH FASTER, WHICH WE DONT SEE......LIKE THE WORKOUT GOLDENSCENTS JUST HAD ON TVG AT SANTA ANITA IN THE MIDDLE OF THE CARD....7F IN 1:21.7
                                      Originally posted by mikemca
                                      The final time of the work is meaningless

                                      Anyone can encourage their horse to run a 46 half or 59 5f.

                                      It's how they do it that makes workout reports valuable.

                                      For instance Horse A worked 59 flat with the rider still as a statue
                                      Horse B worked 59 flat under mild/heavy encouragement

                                      Also Horse A worked 59 flat going out in 26 but flying home in last furlong in 11 is a lot different then Horse B going out in 23 and stumbling home in 13.

                                      Just about all trainers will work them slow for the first 3/4 of the drill and then have them come home fast with a nice gallop out

                                      That's also another thing reports give is after the official workout time is over they give you the gallop out time

                                      Worked in 59 then galloped out 6f in 1:12 and 7f in 1:26

                                      A horse that is raring to go is hard to pull up


                                      There are a bunch of services .I think DRF just got in the game the last few years.I liked bruno de julio until he started thinking his w/o reports were worth more than they are.
                                      Comment
                                      • mikemca
                                        SBR Posting Legend
                                        • 03-10-10
                                        • 10047

                                        #229
                                        This is who I use





                                        then there are these for Cali



                                        (www.hreport.com) Handicapper's Report - Horse Racing Handicapping for Thoroughbreds in Southern California for over 35 years. Look here for help with horse racing handicapping, picks, betting, systems



                                        Plus DRF clockers report and a couple others

                                        Most guys don't have a site you just have to know them
                                        Comment
                                        • harthebar
                                          SBR Posting Legend
                                          • 12-09-11
                                          • 15708

                                          #230
                                          Cool, they just show all the works, .
                                          Comment
                                          • mikemca
                                            SBR Posting Legend
                                            • 03-10-10
                                            • 10047

                                            #231
                                            here is an example ...don't think I'll get in trouble if it's from a while ago


                                            this is one race...so all these were entered is say race 5 and then every horse in the race that is in the database gets listed


                                            Epoustouflant (KY) 10/16/2012 KEE 47.20 hg
                                            Epoustouflant and Whatdidyousee worked from the Pletcher barn. Whatdid was best
                                            and finished in 23.1, 47.1 and 101 flat. Epou was quick in 23.1, 47.1 and finished
                                            101 but was being asked and looked second best. 2 star

                                            Epoustouflant (KY) 10/7/2012 KEE 48.00 bg
                                            Worked with Bow Bells and showed ton of speed in 23.1, 33.3 and then pulled up in
                                            48 flat. Much better than looked. 3 star

                                            Epoustouflant (KY) 10/1/2012 kee 49.00 b
                                            Go Olivia Go and Epoustouflant worked from the pole here and went in 24.1 through
                                            the lane here with Epoustouflant being the better of the two. Finished in 24.1. EZ out
                                            in 102.3. 3 star

                                            Hey Leroy 9/30/2012 cd 50.2 b
                                            3wd, pushed some, tired some over chewed up track, poor maintenance. 1 star

                                            Holden On (FL) 10/7/2012 KEE 48.80 b
                                            EZ here and finished in hand for Catalano. Caught the eye here. 4 star

                                            Indy Awesome 10/16/2012 cd 103 b
                                            Worked with Snowfinch and didn't work sharply here after working well solo all
                                            along 1 star
                                            Comment
                                            • BGboothA
                                              SBR MVP
                                              • 08-07-08
                                              • 4202

                                              #232
                                              Originally posted by mikemca
                                              HOnestly this is one of the best in the business...I use this site very regularly on bigger days.
                                              Comment
                                              • TonyP
                                                SBR Hall of Famer
                                                • 09-20-09
                                                • 8478

                                                #233
                                                interesting piece of info. both the oaks and derbies grandsire is Pulpit, also what is the date of preakness?
                                                Comment
                                                • mikemca
                                                  SBR Posting Legend
                                                  • 03-10-10
                                                  • 10047

                                                  #234
                                                  Borel off Ride On Curlin....Rosario up for Preakness
                                                  Comment
                                                  • trytrytry
                                                    SBR Posting Legend
                                                    • 03-13-06
                                                    • 23649

                                                    #235
                                                    Originally posted by TonyP
                                                    interesting piece of info. both the oaks and derbies grandsire is Pulpit, also what is the date of preakness?
                                                    May 17th
                                                    Comment
                                                    • TonyP
                                                      SBR Hall of Famer
                                                      • 09-20-09
                                                      • 8478

                                                      #236
                                                      Originally posted by trytrytry
                                                      May 17th
                                                      5-17
                                                      Comment
                                                      • Easy-Rider 66
                                                        BARRELED IN @ SBR!
                                                        • 02-14-12
                                                        • 36100

                                                        #237
                                                        California Chrome received a 97 Beyer and a 110 Timeform figure for his Derby score. Lowest beyer ever assigned to a Derby winner since they were offered. Both figures were increased by about 5 points because of the wind.
                                                        Comment
                                                        • trytrytry
                                                          SBR Posting Legend
                                                          • 03-13-06
                                                          • 23649

                                                          #238
                                                          Originally posted by Easy-Rider 66
                                                          California Chrome received a 97 Beyer and a 110 Timeform figure for his Derby score. Lowest beyer ever assigned to a Derby winner since they were offered. Both figures were increased by about 5 points because of the wind.
                                                          which also virtually guarentees he will not bounce at all for Preakness, probably hit a new top fig and win by 6 or 7
                                                          Comment
                                                          • mikemca
                                                            SBR Posting Legend
                                                            • 03-10-10
                                                            • 10047

                                                            #239
                                                            Originally posted by Easy-Rider 66
                                                            California Chrome received a 97 Beyer and a 110 Timeform figure for his Derby score. Lowest beyer ever assigned to a Derby winner since they were offered. Both figures were increased by about 5 points because of the wind.

                                                            Everyone making excuses on why they have it so slow.I'm not buying it.No way every single horse regressed.At least CJ bumped it up a bit more than Beyer.Timeform 110 equates to a 103 beyer.

                                                            I'll back TFUS figs 100% but I think they can't figure out how much the wind factored most of all but also how much the track changed in the 2 hours 45 minutes since the last dirt race was ran race 9.
                                                            Comment
                                                            • str
                                                              SBR Posting Legend
                                                              • 01-12-09
                                                              • 11754

                                                              #240
                                                              Originally posted by mikemca
                                                              Everyone making excuses on why they have it so slow.I'm not buying it.No way every single horse regressed.At least CJ bumped it up a bit more than Beyer.Timeform 110 equates to a 103 beyer.

                                                              I'll back TFUS figs 100% but I think they can't figure out how much the wind factored most of all but also how much the track changed in the 2 hours 45 minutes since the last dirt race was ran race 9.
                                                              Well Mike, one of these days I might be able to disagree with you but you have , in my estimation, hit it right on the head again.

                                                              When dirt sits unwatered for a long period of time, it changes. That is an absolute given. Even if they watered it, which I would be shocked if they did not, after the turf race, it is nowhere near the same. That said, the track sitting for two hours plus is WAY over Andy's head. I have known him for too many years to count, him being a Washington Post guy for years before working for DRF. As of when I left or just before, he truly did not understand this concept like he should have. You could not convince him of the notion. We had a mutual friend that discussed this with me multiple times.
                                                              Between the idle track and the wind, it is a lost cause when it comes to beyers #'s in this case. This is one of many reasons that over the years I have said it is fine to look at them, but do not rely on them. When it came to my horses and the efforts put forth sometimes they were right but just as often they were not. And sometimes they were so far off it was laughable.
                                                              I never professed to know everything, but I sure as heck knew my horse . That being said, What I saw as proof, I was unable to show to others. You, they, and anyone else will simply have to believe me or not. It's totally up to each individual.

                                                              Hope that helps.
                                                              Comment
                                                              • TonyP
                                                                SBR Hall of Famer
                                                                • 09-20-09
                                                                • 8478

                                                                #241
                                                                Originally posted by TonyP
                                                                5-17

                                                                the derby exacta lol
                                                                Comment
                                                                • harthebar
                                                                  SBR Posting Legend
                                                                  • 12-09-11
                                                                  • 15708

                                                                  #242
                                                                  mike or STR how do they even come up with the beyer.or any other speed figure they use, as you all know, i only been into flats for about two years, if that, im a harness, , but im finding out , more money in flats, value, so you guys have been my teachers...lol for real, i see everyone is talking about how slow they went, i dont know if this is a silly question, but could they have gone faster if they wanted, it just seemed to me going a mile and a quarter, all the horses were very ..cautious , about going,not knowing how long they would last, i dont know......,speed was holding pretty solid that day,wasnt it,,dont thge horses that closed into that race, get any credit......in the preakness , i think they will all know what they have, and blast out of there, cc isnt going to have a easy time like the derby, he had the pwerfect trip..right...
                                                                  Originally posted by str
                                                                  Well Mike, one of these days I might be able to disagree with you but you have , in my estimation, hit it right on the head again.

                                                                  When dirt sits unwatered for a long period of time, it changes. That is an absolute given. Even if they watered it, which I would be shocked if they did not, after the turf race, it is nowhere near the same. That said, the track sitting for two hours plus is WAY over Andy's head. I have known him for too many years to count, him being a Washington Post guy for years before working for DRF. As of when I left or just before, he truly did not understand this concept like he should have. You could not convince him of the notion. We had a mutual friend that discussed this with me multiple times.
                                                                  Between the idle track and the wind, it is a lost cause when it comes to beyers #'s in this case. This is one of many reasons that over the years I have said it is fine to look at them, but do not rely on them. When it came to my horses and the efforts put forth sometimes they were right but just as often they were not. And sometimes they were so far off it was laughable.
                                                                  I never professed to know everything, but I sure as heck knew my horse . That being said, What I saw as proof, I was unable to show to others. You, they, and anyone else will simply have to believe me or not. It's totally up to each individual.

                                                                  Hope that helps.
                                                                  Comment
                                                                  • mikemca
                                                                    SBR Posting Legend
                                                                    • 03-10-10
                                                                    • 10047

                                                                    #243
                                                                    Originally posted by Easy-Rider 66
                                                                    California Chrome received a 97 Beyer and a 110 Timeform figure for his Derby score. Lowest beyer ever assigned to a Derby winner since they were offered. Both figures were increased by about 5 points because of the wind.
                                                                    Originally posted by mikemca


                                                                    Everyone making excuses on why they have it so slow.I'm not buying it.No way every single horse regressed.At least CJ bumped it up a bit more than Beyer.Timeform 110 equates to a 103 beyer.

                                                                    I'll back TFUS figs 100% but I think they can't figure out how much the wind factored most of all but also how much the track changed in the 2 hours 45 minutes since the last dirt race was ran race 9.
                                                                    TG has it Pair-Top-Pair-Off-Pair for the top 5
                                                                    Comment
                                                                    • mikemca
                                                                      SBR Posting Legend
                                                                      • 03-10-10
                                                                      • 10047

                                                                      #244
                                                                      Originally posted by harthebar
                                                                      mike or STR how do they even come up with the beyer.or any other speed figure they use,

                                                                      You're gonna have to research that urself

                                                                      Way too hard to explain but at the core of it is par times for the track>slap a variant on it>put fig according to ur scale

                                                                      The top 2 I mentioned earlier are much more in depth but Beyer/Bris not so much
                                                                      Comment
                                                                      • Easy-Rider 66
                                                                        BARRELED IN @ SBR!
                                                                        • 02-14-12
                                                                        • 36100

                                                                        #245
                                                                        Originally posted by mikemca
                                                                        TG has it Pair-Top-Pair-Off-Pair for the top 5
                                                                        Have not looked at T-graph figures yet. But makes sense that Commanding curve got a top and Wicked Strong regressed. A little surprised Danza got a pair. I will be interested to see what Timeform has him at. Thx for the info.
                                                                        Comment
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