[Dirty Bay Player]

At what point are the GOAT whispers going to stop for Brady?

Great QB - absolutely.

But plays against Jets / Miami / Buffalo 6 games per year. Plays on a team that knew the other teams' plays for years. Plays on a team where he has literally 6-8 seconds to survey the field (greatest O-Line of all time is more like it).

So many of his yards are little dinks and dunks that turn into big plays. He has no mobility.

I think Eli would have figured out a way to win that game last night. I think even Andrew Luck with his mobility would have been able to win that game last night.

Brady couldn't carry Montana's jock.

[ThaTopMoron]

Brady 7-7 last 14 playoff games.

In his first 10 (really 9, as he wasn't the QB vs Steelers in 2001 AFCCG) he only threw 14 TD passes.

Won multitude of playoff games by 3 (Vinatieri)

His career stats in AFCCG's are unimpressive. Might have more picks than TD's in 6 total games.

His only impressive SB in 5 of them is the Panthers game.

[rsnnh12]

In all fairness, Brady has never been pulled from a playoff game because he was sucking... Montana can't say the same

Montana is the GOAT, Brady played like shit last night, but he still has time to add to his legacy and be the best ever

[Capybara]

Your argument doesn't hold water.

What's his overall record as a starter? How many playoff games has he directed his team to? How many Championship games has he directed his team to? Early in his career he had a great defense and was able to just manage the game smartly, but that was a LONG time ago, this team has had to rely solely on the offense for the last 5 or 6 years and they still always win at least 12 games a year.

The only thing I'll admit is that he hasn't played his absolute BEST in some of the recent playoff games. But come on, HOW CLOSE WERE THEY TO WINNING A BUNCH OF THOSE??!?!?!

You can't just ignore shit. If Welker catches that pass last year, Super Bowl crown. If the Manning-to-Tyree miracle catch doesn't happen in 2008, Brady led the game-winning drive, Super Bowl crown. As for yesterday, the fact that Talib got hurt immediately meant the Pats could no longer run the defense they wanted to run, and so then Flacco could dominate the game with long possessions in the second half. And let's not forget that AGAIN Welker dropped an easy ball that would have continued a possession in the red zone when the Pats were up 6 in the second half.

It's retarded to take away what Brady's done -- the guy is an assassin and possibly the best ever, not saying definitely. But anyway, he's lost nothing off his fastball, so there's still time. But come on, 5 Super Bowls? 7 AFC Championship games?? That is sick stuff.

[ThaTopMoron]

your argument doesn't hold water.

What's his overall record as a starter? How many playoff games has he directed his team to? How many championship games has he directed his team to? Early in his career he had a great defense and was able to just manage the game smartly, but that was a long time ago, this team has had to rely solely on the offense for the last 5 or 6 years and they still always win at least 12 games a year.

The only thing i'll admit is that he hasn't played his absolute best in some of the recent playoff games. But come on, how close were they to winning a bunch of those??!?!?!

You can't just ignore shit. If welker catches that pass last year, super bowl crown. If the manning-to-tyree miracle catch doesn't happen in 2008, brady led the game-winning drive, super bowl crown. As for yesterday, the fact that talib got hurt immediately meant the pats could no longer run the defense they wanted to run, and so then flacco could dominate the game with long possessions in the second half. And let's not forget that again welker dropped an easy ball that would have continued a possession in the red zone when the pats were up 6 in the second half.

It's retarded to take away what brady's done -- the guy is an assassin and possibly the best ever, not saying definitely. But anyway, he's lost nothing off his fastball, so there's still time. But come on, 5 super bowls? 7 afc championship games?? That is sick stuff.

"if"

can be applied to anyone

[Dirty Bay Player]

Your argument doesn't hold water.

What's his overall record as a starter? How many playoff games has he directed his team to? How many Championship games has he directed his team to? Early in his career he had a great defense and was able to just manage the game smartly, but that was a LONG time ago, this team has had to rely solely on the offense for the last 5 or 6 years and they still always win at least 12 games a year.

The only thing I'll admit is that he hasn't played his absolute BEST in some of the recent playoff games. But come on, HOW CLOSE WERE THEY TO WINNING A BUNCH OF THOSE??!?!?!

You can't just ignore shit. If Welker catches that pass last year, Super Bowl crown. If the Manning-to-Tyree miracle catch doesn't happen in 2008, Brady led the game-winning drive, Super Bowl crown. As for yesterday, the fact that Talib got hurt immediately meant the Pats could no longer run the defense they wanted to run, and so then Flacco could dominate the game with long possessions in the second half. And let's not forget that AGAIN Welker dropped an easy ball that would have continued a possession in the red zone when the Pats were up 6 in the second half.

It's retarded to take away what Brady's done -- the guy is an assassin and possibly the best ever, not saying definitely. But anyway, he's lost nothing off his fastball, so there's still time. But come on, 5 Super Bowls? 7 AFC Championship games?? That is sick stuff.

And what if not for the tuck rule against the Raiders? And what if Vinateri hadn't made those field goals? And what if the Pats hadn't been benefitting from Spygate? And what if his offensive line weren't the best in the NFL, and he had the same limited amount of time to get rid of the ball as all the other QBs in the NFL? With his mobility - ANY type of pass rush pressure and he is not the same QB, by a long shot. There are a lot of active QBs who - given the amount of time that Brady has - would have at least equal #'s (Eli and Payton, Matt Ryan, Rodgers, potentially Roethlisberger).

I don't think the measure of the "best of all time" is the cumulative wins - the measure is PERFECTION. Montana was perfect in Super Bowls - ZERO ints. Montana never got up-staged TWICE by another QB (as Brady did with Eli).

Part of the "greatest of all time" isn't just what you accomplish, but that you didn't fail. Brady has had large helpings of fail over the last 5 years, and hasn't even looked like the best QB on the field in the most recent playoffs, let alone the greatest of all time. There is no doubt that Eli was better than Brady in both of those games.

And Spygate isn't just some hysterical stuff by people who hate the Pats. They had a decided advantage by cheating and haven't been able to get that monkey off their back.

Brady could have risen to the occasion yesterday and marched them back. But he threw a pass into a defensive lineman that was deflected and picked, and ultimately that much more directly cost them the game than Wes Welker missing a single catch. That interception sealed their fate, and the one he threw in the last Giants game (that deep bomb / questionable prayer that got picked in that with still more than a quarter of play left) had a huge part to do with them losing that one as well.

Had Brady won that first superbowl against the Giants and completed the perfect season and retired that day, I'd be the first to call him the greatest of all time. But he didn't. And then he proceeded to have a very mediocre body of work in the rest of his playoff career, and was a total pu s s y / classless coward in defeat each time to boot. Not only is his body of work not the same degree of masterpiece that Montana achieved, he's been exposed as a pouty primadona.

[rsnnh12]

^lol

If Spygate was so bad and such an advantage, why are teams now absolutely allowed to videotape from the sideline?

And that "greatest offensive line of all time" allowed Matt Cassel to be sacked almost 50 times... the only QBs who had a year with more sacks in the last 5 years are Rodgers, Cutler, and Big Ben. This was back when Cassel was a decent QB, and he's also much more mobile than Brady. With the same exact oline, Brady was sacked 26 fewer times. Go ahead, explain that. Brady helps make the line what it is through his ability to read a defense. Period. The only elite lineman he has is Vollmer, and he's been dinged up the last cpl years.

[Dirty Bay Player]

^lol

If Spygate was so bad and such an advantage, why are teams now absolutely allowed to videotape from the sideline?

And that "greatest offensive line of all time" allowed Matt Cassel to be sacked almost 50 times... the only QBs who had a year with more sacks in the last 5 years are Rodgers, Cutler, and Big Ben. This was back when Cassel was a decent QB, and he's also much more mobile than Brady. With the same exact oline, Brady was sacked 26 fewer times. Go ahead, explain that. Brady helps make the line what it is through his ability to read a defense. Period. The only elite lineman he has is Vollmer, and he's been dinged up the last cpl years.

Well, Cassel was sacked 42 times the next year, for a different team - so it's probable that's more about Cassel and not knowing how to throw the ball away.

Explain the fact that Cassel had 21 TDs and a 93 QB rating the first year taking over for Brady? If Cassel had those #'s with that O-line, how do you think any of the other elite QBs in the league would do? Coming back that next year, Brady's rating was 96. So the GOAT is 3 points better than Cassel in the exact same system, with the exact same offensive line?

O-line advantage aside, Tom Brady is 2-3 in playoff games in since 2008. Game log:
2008 against the Giants: 29/48, 266 yards, 1 TD, 5.54 yards per attempt
2009 against the Ravens: 23/42, 154 yards, 2 TDs, 3 INTs, 3.67 yards per attempt
2011 against the Jets: 29/45, 299 yards, 2 TDs, 1 INT, 6.64 yards per attempt
2012 against the Broncos: 26/34, 363 yards, 6 TDs, 1 INT, 10.68 yards per attempt
2012 against the Ravens: 22/36, 0 TDs, 2 INTs, 6.64 yards per attempt

Since all that Brady's fanboys care about is the raw #s, they will devour the 6 TDs against the Broncos and overlook the fact that in the rest of the games, he threw 7 INTS in five games. 7 INTS in five games is more Philip Rivers regular season -esque than Montana comparison worthy.

[Dirty Bay Player]

In fact, really what would settle this whole argument is that Brady is the best regular season QB of all time. He is, by the #'s, indisputably.

In the playoffs, he was close to being the best of all time. But the last 5 years have eroded that case by quite a bit.

The whole point of the thread is - if not now, at what point do Brady fanboys start to concede that the GOAT talks are delusional? Great, you love the guy and you have the fathead poster hanging up in your bedroom. Awesome, everyone needs their heroes.

But try to get real. You're measuring against almost perfect (and completely perfect in superbowls, which are without question the most important metric). So how can you take something perfect and compare it against something imperfect?

If Brady loses in the AFC championship next year, do you still think he's the GOAT? If he goes to the SB and loses, do you still think he's the GOAT? If he throws a critical pick in the first round of the playoffs and they get sent packing is he still the GOAT?

Just trying to understand how deep the insanity and delusion of the Brady hand job artists goes.

[rsnnh12]

Except that the year before Cassel got there, the KC line allowed 37 sacks... clearly its not just Cassel.

The real truth is that Brady makes that line elite. How else do you explain a 27 sack swing?

Brady was coming off a devastating knee injury in 09 and clearly wasn't himself if you actually watch the games. How about we look at the difference between the 07 and 08 teams, which had much closer to the same personnel.

Brady had 2 more passing TDs per game than Cassel, was sacked 26 fewer times, and led them to 7 more wins, 5 being in the regular season. Matt Cassel, while being a solid QB at the time, was NOWHERE NEAR as successful as Brady in the same offense. Two more passing TDs PER GAME

[rsnnh12]

I fully agree that Montana is the GOAT, but you act like he's untouchable. Again, he got pulled from a playoff game because he was playing terribly. If that happened to Brady, people would be all over him calling him overrated, and yet the almost undisputed GOAT had that happen to him

[Dirty Bay Player]

Except that the year before Cassel got there, the KC line allowed 37 sacks... clearly its not just Cassel.

The real truth is that Brady makes that line elite. How else do you explain a 27 sack swing?

Brady was coming off a devastating knee injury in 09 and clearly wasn't himself if you actually watch the games. How about we look at the difference between the 07 and 08 teams, which had much closer to the same personnel.

Brady had 2 more passing TDs per game than Cassel, was sacked 26 fewer times, and led them to 7 more wins, 5 being in the regular season. Matt Cassel, while being a solid QB at the time, was NOWHERE NEAR as successful as Brady in the same offense. Two more passing TDs PER GAME

My original argument is not that Brady is not a great QB. My argument is that you have to be a total Pats homer to believe he is better than Montana. The fact that Cassel comparisons are even being entertained proves my ultimate point.

[Dirty Bay Player]

I fully agree that Montana is the GOAT, but you act like he's untouchable. Again, he got pulled from a playoff game because he was playing terribly. If that happened to Brady, people would be all over him calling him overrated, and yet the almost undisputed GOAT had that happen to him

He's not untouchable. But he is untouchable by Brady now. He's had too many big losses, and he's been outplayed too many times in big playoff games. I have no doubt that if Eli and Brady had a 3rd and 4th SB matchup, Eli would be 3-0 or 4-0. Eli owns Brady. When you are owned by another QB in your current class, you are not a GOAT discussion candidate.

[rsnnh12]

My original argument is not that Brady is not a great QB. My argument is that you have to be a total Pats homer to believe he is better than Montana. The fact that Cassel comparisons are even being entertained proves my ultimate point.

The comparisons are only made by people who hate Brady/the Pats, and they truly are ridiculous comparisons for the reasons I gave.

[rsnnh12]

He's not untouchable. But he is untouchable by Brady now. He's had too many big losses, and he's been outplayed too many times in big playoff games. I have no doubt that if Eli and Brady had a 3rd and 4th SB matchup, Eli would be 3-0 or 4-0. Eli owns Brady. When you are owned by another QB in your current class, you are not a GOAT discussion candidate.

Eli owns Brady? He's a Samuel drop/Tyree helmet catch and Welker drop away from being 0-2 in Super Bowls, and Brady is that close to being 5-0. That's hardly "owning". If they had won those games by 2+ scores I would agree, but that's not the case. Both were great games that came down to the wire, and the Giants players made the plays they needed to.

[ThaTopMoron]

Brady had a wonderful total team early in his career. He had the coaching to get him to play the games just right and do just enough to win, he had a great defense that was very opportunistic in the playoffs causing turnovers and getting great field position for the offense. He had the undisputed greatest clutch kicker in NFL history to make, not shank them field goals. The total coaching effort of the Pats was great and they knew how to game plan and execute, and they had the people to do the job in all phases of the game.

He got his.

But ever since he messed up in Denver in 2005, remember that critical pick he threw to Champ in the endzone and that Champ returned 100+ yards to the 1 yard line?

Ever since then, Brady has not gotten it done. He has lost 2 of 4 AFCCG and in the 2 wins he still didn't have a good game.

His team had a 21-3 lead in 2006 and they blew it. Choked big time. It was a sign of future events. Brady ends the game with a pick when he was at the Colts 45 yard line.

In his wins, he was outplayed by Flacco last year and in 2007 he threw 3 picks and was lucky that the Chargers superstars were all injured and they couldn't convert in the redzone.

He is 0-2 in the Super Bowl, both times as a favorite. Including blowing a 18-0 team going for perfection. Blame the defense all you want for both of them, but the defense was good enough... the Giants just made very clutch plays. Brady and the offense should have put up more than 14 and 17 points in the f u c k i n g Super Bowl. You score less than 20 and expect to win? Nah. GTFO

He also went 1 and done in 2009 and 2010 back to back years, losing to wild card teams @ home to the Ravens and Jets.

[Dirty Bay Player]

Eli owns Brady? He's a Samuel drop/Tyree helmet catch and Welker drop away from being 0-2 in Super Bowls, and Brady is that close to being 5-0. That's hardly "owning". If they had won those games by 2+ scores I would agree, but that's not the case. Both were great games that came down to the wire, and the Giants players made the plays they needed to.

Unfortunately for Brady, the only stat that matters there is 0-2. Yes, Eli owns him. Because his team won both times they played the most important game.

All the Raiders needed was a b.s. no tuck rule not to come into play - what might have been for them? What if's and "all he needed(s)" are irrelevant.

[ThaTopMoron]

eli owns brady? He's a samuel drop/tyree helmet catch and welker drop away from being 0-2 in super bowls, and brady is that close to being 5-0. That's hardly "owning". If they had won those games by 2+ scores i would agree, but that's not the case. Both were great games that came down to the wire, and the giants players made the plays they needed to.

if if if if if if if if if

What if Holmes didn't catch that pass from big Ben in 2008.

What if brady's tuck rule was not overturned in 2001.

What if vinatieri missed them field goals and we had super bowls in ot.

What if lee evans caught that pass from flacco last year.

What if the guy on san fran didn't fumble.

What if vick didn't throw that late pick vs the packers in 2010 wild card rd.

What if the Denver D didn't give up a miracle 70 yard bomb to Flacco?

What if Favre didn't throw that pick late in the game vs the Saints?

What if the Saints didn't go for an onside kick vs the Colts?

[Dirty Bay Player]

The comparisons are only made by people who hate Brady/the Pats, and they truly are ridiculous comparisons for the reasons I gave.

I don't pretend not to hate Brady or the Pats. They were good for a long time, and Boston fans are tough to suffer. Of course those are ridiculous comparisons. Similar to comparing Brady's blemished playoff / super bowl career to Montana's.

[Dirty Bay Player]

Brady had a wonderful total team early in his career. He had the coaching to get him to play the games just right and do just enough to win, he had a great defense that was very opportunistic in the playoffs causing turnovers and getting great field position for the offense. He had the undisputed greatest clutch kicker in NFL history to make, not shank them field goals. The total coaching effort of the Pats was great and they knew how to game plan and execute, and they had the people to do the job in all phases of the game.

He got his.

But ever since he messed up in Denver in 2005, remember that critical pick he threw to Champ in the endzone and that Champ returned 100+ yards to the 1 yard line?

Ever since then, Brady has not gotten it done. He has lost 2 of 4 AFCCG and in the 2 wins he still didn't have a good game.

His team had a 21-3 lead in 2006 and they blew it. Choked big time. It was a sign of future events. Brady ends the game with a pick when he was at the Colts 45 yard line.

In his wins, he was outplayed by Flacco last year and in 2007 he threw 3 picks and was lucky that the Chargers superstars were all injured and they couldn't convert in the redzone.

He is 0-2 in the Super Bowl, both times as a favorite. Including blowing a 18-0 team going for perfection. Blame the defense all you want for both of them, but the defense was good enough... the Giants just made very clutch plays. Brady and the offense should have put up more than 14 and 17 points in the f u c k i n g Super Bowl. You score less than 20 and expect to win? Nah. GTFO

He also went 1 and done in 2009 and 2010 back to back years, losing to wild card teams @ home to the Ravens and Jets.

Thank you. We hear nothing but adoration for Brady, and these key moments where they stumbled and / or the offense didn't really show up are justified as being the fault of dropped passes, or some external factors. Forget Welker's dropped pass yesterday, and even forget the deflected pick (which was partly bad luck, though I'd argue he's still the one who threw it and allowed it to be deflected) -- THEY ONLY SCORED 13 POINTS!!!! How is the supposed GOAT QB involved on a team that scores 13 points in a home playoff game? How can a guy be considered GOAT when he's had a few of those stinkers in the playoffs, in games where the opposing QB has better stats and bigger throws to win it?

This guy gets the benefit of the doubt every time they stumble, they never answer any questions and act put out to have to talk to mere mortals after every loss, and the guy gets his d i k sucked by the east coast media all offseason. And then going into every postseason it's Brady who's propped up as deity. He sure as hell doesn't suck, and he'd sure as hell make 90% of NFL teams better if he were traded to them. But he's nowhere near the untouchable stature that they afford him back east.

[ThaTopMoron]

Thank you. We hear nothing but adoration for Brady, and these key moments where they stumbled and / or the offense didn't really show up are justified as being the fault of dropped passes, or some external factors. Forget Welker's dropped pass yesterday, and even forget the deflected pick (which was partly bad luck, though I'd argue he's still the one who threw it and allowed it to be deflected) -- THEY ONLY SCORED 13 POINTS!!!! How is the supposed GOAT QB involved on a team that scores 13 points in a home playoff game? How can a guy be considered GOAT when he's had a few of those stinkers in the playoffs, in games where the opposing QB has better stats and bigger throws to win it?

This guy gets the benefit of the doubt every time they stumble, they never answer any questions and act put out to have to talk to mere mortals after every loss, and the guy gets his d i k sucked by the east coast media all offseason. And then going into every postseason it's Brady who's propped up as deity. He sure as hell doesn't suck, and he'd sure as hell make 90% of NFL teams better if he were traded to them. But he's nowhere near the untouchable stature that they afford him back east.

Yep. Thread over. Brady better hope he gets to retire with a 3-2 mark in the Super Bowl.

[rsnnh12]

You guys are delusional. Montana had 7 playoff losses, and in those games, his team put up a whopping 3 points TWICE (with the GOAT WR both times), 13 twice, and 17. Montana did so poorly in 1 that he got pulled. How can the GOAT QB be pulled in a playoff game?

Here's a hint. Everybody has bad games, even at the most crucial points! It happens. That's why Montana got pulled, its why Brady has thrown picks, etc. None of them are perfect. Far from it. Its the fact that they consistently get their team in the playoffs with the ability to win it all any given year that makes these 2 the best QBs ever. They don't win all the time, but I guarantee you that defenses would rather see any QB in the playoffs than Brady and Montana (for their respective eras)

[titanium777]

"Montana has a career Super Bowl-record 11 passing touchdowns and no interceptions for a 127.8 Super Bowl Passer Rating, also a record."

11 TD, 0 INT in the big game; Joe Montana played in a different era where corners could get more physical w/ receivers. Joe Montana > Tom Brady.

[titanium777]

Also, Montana beat Elway 55-10 and Marino 38-16 in superbowls. Brady beat Delhomme and McNabb by 3

[rsnnh12]

"Montana has a career Super Bowl-record 11 passing touchdowns and no interceptions for a 127.8 Super Bowl Passer Rating, also a record."

11 TD, 0 INT in the big game; Joe Montana played in a different era where corners could get more physical w/ receivers. Joe Montana > Tom Brady.

I agree that Montana is better at this point... but he also played in an era where there was no salary cap. How else do you think the 9ers kept that dynasty going so long? Debartolo was willing to spend. Didn't the 9ers have the first private team plane in the NFL?

[Dirty Bay Player]

I agree that Montana is better at this point... but he also played in an era where there was no salary cap. How else do you think the 9ers kept that dynasty going so long? Debartolo was willing to spend. Didn't the 9ers have the first private team plane in the NFL?

Ultimately all of these conversations mean nothing. Shoe in hall of famer, one of the greatest QBs of all time. This is the kind of thing old men quibble over when they are drunk. I'm just saying, finding the chinks in the armor for Montana's career is tough, but for Brady, they are pretty visible. Not to mention one of the dudes is an all american hero type, and the other guy is a priss - so on the general test of time on how people look back at how studly their respective careers were, I think Montana's legacy holds up MUCH stronger (especially as Brady continues to lose big games in the playoffs in the waning years of his career). Part of this discussion is around leaving while you're on top. While the KC time for Montana was painful to his fans, he got out pretty quickly while his success is the only thing people remember. If Brady retired tomorrow I think the main memories would be the bitter losses over the last five years. That's a huge impact on a QB's legacy.

[Capybara]

DBP,

Listen, you make some decent points, and I agree about how these guys are all legends and it's only a matter of arguing over beers who's better for the fukk of it... we're all good there...

However, you've undermined some of your arguments with the same bullsh-t commentary not at all based in reality about Brady being a priss or a primadonna or pouty or any of that shit. It's complete baloney. I TOTALLY get why people think that stuff, given A) the perfect-looking genes he inherited, B) his supermodel wife, C) all the magazine covers and shit... It's only natural for people to hate him and say "Look at this prick." You ASSUME he's on his high horse thinking he's special and looking down at everyone and wanting special treatment. But that is just plain NOT TRUE AT ALL. NONE OF that circumstantial stuff tells who he is AT ALL.

It really fukkin steams me when people talk like that. Do you know how many opposing players talk ALL KINDS OF SMACK about the Pats the week leading up to games, all kinds of NASTY shit?! Pats are arrogant, Pats this, Pats that. Tell me the number times in 12 years Brady's talked ONE BIT OF TRASH back! You can't!! Cuz the answer is that even though he's EARNED the right to give it right back to these guys, he DOESN'T DO IT!! He only ever says "I respect so-and-so, I respect the ____s, they're a great team, we'll just do our best and see how it plays out." Same thing after games, in press conferences. I've watched EVERY ONE!!!! The ____s played better than we did, they deserved the win, we didn't make enough plays," etc. So what is this bullshit about classless??? Where the fukk does that even come from??!?! All the guy ever does is A) be a total leader in his locker room, trying to get everyone to prepare as furiously as he does for every game, and B) speak respectfully and politically correctly about fukkin EVERYBODY!!!!!! Sure, every once in a while, he'll snap A TINY BIT, and deal a little shit back, like I hate the Jets or whatever, but it's SOOOOO fukkin rare in all his years!!!!!! The guy is a decent, hard-working, family-oriented, down-to-earth dude, DESPITE HIS RIDICULOUS LIFE.

Now, is he a vicious competitor? Fukk yeah, why do you think he's won so many games? Almost all the great ones are vicious on the field. So between the lines, of course he'll scratch and claw for every inch, LIKE EVERYONE DOES, and he'll talk smack sometimes or whatever, or yell at the refs for a call, but who cares about that, everyone does that. The stuff between the lines goes way beyond what most people even realize. Look at the game they're playing, guys careening into each other like freight trains, it gets nasty in those piles! But anyway, I digress... My main point is that once anyone starts to bring in the guy's character, like it's somehow poor, they've just killed their entire argument, cuz the shit is flat out unsubstantiated bull. You want to rip his play, have at it. (Even though I think that's folly too.) The other stuff is child's play.

[Dirty Bay Player]

DBP,

Listen, you make some decent points, and I agree about how these guys are all legends and it's only a matter of arguing over beers who's better for the fukk of it... we're all good there...

However, you've undermined some of your arguments with the same bullsh-t commentary not at all based in reality about Brady being a priss or a primadonna or pouty or any of that shit. It's complete baloney. I TOTALLY get why people think that stuff, given A) the perfect-looking genes he inherited, B) his supermodel wife, C) all the magazine covers and shit... It's only natural for people to hate him and say "Look at this prick." You ASSUME he's on his high horse thinking he's special and looking down at everyone and wanting special treatment. But that is just plain NOT TRUE AT ALL. NONE OF that circumstantial stuff tells who he is AT ALL.

It really fukkin steams me when people talk like that. Do you know how many opposing players talk ALL KINDS OF SMACK about the Pats the week leading up to games, all kinds of NASTY shit?! Pats are arrogant, Pats this, Pats that. Tell me the number times in 12 years Brady's talked ONE BIT OF TRASH back! You can't!! Cuz the answer is that even though he's EARNED the right to give it right back to these guys, he DOESN'T DO IT!! He only ever says "I respect so-and-so, I respect the ____s, they're a great team, we'll just do our best and see how it plays out." Same thing after games, in press conferences. I've watched EVERY ONE!!!! The ____s played better than we did, they deserved the win, we didn't make enough plays," etc. So what is this bullshit about classless??? Where the fukk does that even come from??!?! All the guy ever does is A) be a total leader in his locker room, trying to get everyone to prepare as furiously as he does for every game, and B) speak respectfully and politically correctly about fukkin EVERYBODY!!!!!! Sure, every once in a while, he'll snap A TINY BIT, and deal a little shit back, like I hate the Jets or whatever, but it's SOOOOO fukkin rare in all his years!!!!!! The guy is a decent, hard-working, family-oriented, down-to-earth dude, DESPITE HIS RIDICULOUS LIFE.

Now, is he a vicious competitor? Fukk yeah, why do you think he's won so many games? Almost all the great ones are vicious on the field. So between the lines, of course he'll scratch and claw for every inch, LIKE EVERYONE DOES, and he'll talk smack sometimes or whatever, or yell at the refs for a call, but who cares about that, everyone does that. The stuff between the lines goes way beyond what most people even realize. Look at the game they're playing, guys careening into each other like freight trains, it gets nasty in those piles! But anyway, I digress... My main point is that once anyone starts to bring in the guy's character, like it's somehow poor, they've just killed their entire argument, cuz the shit is flat out unsubstantiated bull. You want to rip his play, have at it. (Even though I think that's folly too.) The other stuff is child's play.

Fair enough. Most of my dislike of him is based on his facial expressions and his appearance of being smug, which is hardly scientific. Most of sportsfans' judgments of other teams are probably similarly based more on hunches than science. In my view of the world, I prefer to believe that the Pats and Boston sports teams and fans in general are largely pricks, and if that's wrong, I don't want to be right. Good luck to you and your teams, and glad that respectful debate is possible here. But seriously, I hope Tom Brady loses every postseason game left in his career and that the Red Sox finish in the cellar from here to eternity. Meanwhile, get ready for more Giants World Series and a potential dynasty in the Niners, pal.