Tournament Strategy

[RangeFinder]

Great thread.

I use to spend a lot of time in tournament poker. It took so much of my time I had to quit. I couldn't get anything done around the house, lol.

What's amazing is there are so many ways to play and there are no right or wrong answers to a lot of situations. What I've learned is that in tournament poker, you have to play your opponents more than worrying about pot odds. Odds are for long term outcomes, not short term like tournaments. A lot of pro's don't even consider pot odds anymore, because that is what everyone is doing. They play the table, pick their spots, watch the blind levels and proceed.

Just my years of observation.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Great comments, Range. I've just been trying to present my AMATEUR opinions. You play + observe.

I will echo one thing u say above. Poker is a HUGE time-consumer. Even if u could carve out a small edge + feel like u could beat the rake...the time element is big. Poker is a slow game. Even on-line, it doesn't move that fast. The endgame in poker tournaments is particularly slow. Nobody wants to go out on a weak holding.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Range, valid point on the Pot Odds. Of course, I'm always tracking the pot and comparing it to the bet size. Figuring out my calling odds etc.

But you have to consider the leveraging going on. One nice thing about calling w/ a strong draw. In that situation, if the calling odds are good...you have to believe you're catching FAIR ODDS vs (virtually) any holding your opponent has.

[RangeFinder]

Range, valid point on the Pot Odds. Of course, I'm always tracking the pot and comparing it to the bet size. Figuring out my calling odds etc.

But you have to consider the leveraging going on. One nice thing about calling w/ a strong draw. In that situation, if the calling odds are good...you have to believe you're catching FAIR ODDS vs (virtually) any holding your opponent has.

Spot on right there. The main goal, as you mentioned in previous posts, its to play potentially huge pots. At some point, you have to take chances in tournaments. I almost always do this stabbing at huge pots and being okay with busting out trying to do so. I found that just playing medium to short stacks all of the time leads to getting to the money, but never winning or getting a top 10 finish. Chip position is everything in a tournament just for the fact you have so many options, which puts the player at an advantage. I will take chances early in tournaments sometimes just to try to "chip up".

[ChuckyTheGoat]

I like it, Range. So often, tournaments are going to play out w/ similar chip stacks + similar talent. Then, it comes down to the flips.

Would love to get toward business end w/ a big chip-stack. That likely is going to mean a huge double-up at some point. At tail-end of tournament, it sucks to be short-stacked:
1) When u go all-in, u don't have any Fold Equity. Any2 is going to call w/ +200 odds.
2) And people attack your Big Blind. You have to have something close to Premium hand to go All-in. So, you wind up folding a lot of medium-strength hands.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Wanna see a funny hand?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL62RkxgF8A

This guy mis-plays his hand so badly that he gets opponent to lay down a Flush.

[daneblazer]

Pretty crazy... this is the first time I've even thought about poker in several months. Coming from someone who use to play several hours every day for years

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Dane, I'm just posting food for thought.

Tat made a true comment that this thread would have had more validity a decade ago. I never gave poker a 2nd thought until last few years. Part of me wishes I would have NEVER given poker a 2nd thought.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Have posted a lot of comments/ideas in here. One that comes to mind:

* An opponent's hand is (USUALLY) more intimidating b4 it goes face-up.

The conservative player has a tendency to think worst-case scenario. How often are u holding the stone-cold nuts? Not too often.

Therefore, you're always contemplating how u might beaten. HIS probability of catching a monster is same as yours. Sometimes, he's just playing u.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Another area where I admit to struggling =

* Blind on Blind situations.

My observation is that this USUALLY doesn't happen at full-ring. IE, there's action b4 the blinds. The hand USUALLY isn't folded to SmallBlind for 1st action.

One school of thought is that u always take a shot at the blinds. So "complete" would not be an option. If the SB is entering pot, you USUALLY come in for a raise.

For Blind on Blind, the Ranges are SO wide. If SmallBlind raises into you, BigBlind is often staring at +200 calling odds. You have to consider calling (or raising), w/ everything but pure-garbage hands.

Ace-hi has to be considered a real hand in Blind on Blind. If there is action here, have to think about the worst hand you're willing to play here.

Similarly, Blind on Blind = business end of tournament, when you're down to L2.

I've made some bad plays in this situation. I normally don't give my opponent credit for much of a hand.

[daneblazer]

Dane, I'm just posting food for thought.
Tat made a true comment that this thread would have had more validity a decade ago. I never gave poker a 2nd thought until last few years. Part of me wishes I would have NEVER given poker a 2nd thought.

Poker is best treated as a casual hobby for the vast majority of people. Just my opinion...If you're smart enough to succeed at poker, you are smart enough to succeed at other ventures in life and the time you spend on poker can usually be better spent concentrating on something else. There are exceptions. You really have to enjoy the game and be able to emotionally survive the bad runs and flat lining for it to be worthwhile. It can be a nice income supplement and it's pretty damn cool to say you play poker for a living or even a semi pro, but money can't buy happiness and it can't buy time.

That said, I think the US has another poker boom in it if we can get it legalized. Right now it's just a hassle to play the game in most states. The player pool is much more educated than it was 10 years ago. Team that with a shitty environment for poker players and ya it's probably more relevant 10 years ago. Doesn't mean you can't get good stuff from it tho

[ChuckyTheGoat]

No doubt, Dane. Best as a hobby.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Wanted to stress one concept that I've listed previously:

* Opponent's betting patterns represents an Exploding Bet Ratio.

Some people will call losing w/ a "good" hand a "cooler" when it loses to a better hand.

Doesn't have to always play out like that. Consider the phrase I call "Exploding Bet Ratio."

If opponent was betting $2 Pre-flop but wakes up on Flop/Turn...to the point of betting a HUGE amount like $100. Don't think about it too hard...they made their hand. They didn't grow more fond of their hand. They MADE their hand.

I'm usually pretty aware of this, but I've been burnt, too. If Opponent tries to enter pot cheaply and later bets like he discovered Plutonium...it's b/c he did. His hand is now Gold. Show it proper respect. Your top-pair is no good.

[DwightShrute]

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Got another topic to discuss. What about:

* Checking to Induce Bluff on River.

There's a saying that u normally can't get more than 2 streets of Value on a hand. The thinking is that the value hands change on some street. RARELY does a hand go Bet/Call 3x. Normally, it's going to be some permutation of Bet/Raise or Bet/Fold on some street.

I'll give a hand example: I raise w/ K9 (spades) in mid-pos. Get called from late-pos. Flop is 9-hi w/ 2hearts.

I bet flop, get called. Turn is paired 4, still 9-hi w/ 2hearts. I bet again, and get called. Pretty ez to put him on a Flush Draw.

River is a low-brick, not a Heart. If I bet here, I think I get a lot of Folds. I like my hand, but don't love it.

I check, face a sizable bet (close to pot-size). I grudgingly Call. He had busted Flush Draw, I win some extra $$.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Another topic to consider:

* In short-stack situations, when to play Wider than the Shove charts indicate.

This is a topic that can be villain-specific. Late in the tournament, people KNOW that the short-stacked Big Blind can't defend many hands. If you don't have $$ for odds behind, u have to Fold or Shove. Can't call.

What about a Villain who is repeatedly attacking the Blinds? If u see him opening 4 hands in a row, he's overplaying his Strong Hand frequency. If u notice this, it's ok to Shove wider from Big Blind.

I saw this happening. Guy kept opening and taking down Blinds. I'm in BB w/ modest Ace (a5 offsuit). He opens, I'm at 8BB. Good enough, I shove. Opponent normally WON'T fold if he's getting +200 calling odds. He calls, he had 98(diamonds). My Ace held, I win hand.

[Jayvegas420]

Chucky, we're sitting in seat 9 at the $110 nightly NL Holdem tourney at The Golden Nugget Poker Series & we have $10,800 of a starting $10,000 stack. We have just had a smoke & we are sitting down into SB after the first break. The ante is $75 & the blinds are $300/ $600 & we look down to see pocket 6's.

Now remember, this is a $110 tournament with a ton of house juice attached to it. Only $80 went into the prize pool and I'm sure there were guys playing who were drinking tons of beer just to break even on the entry fee.
Seats 1-3 & 4 are playing the loosest and have everyone out stacked by 7x-10x & I'm sitting to the left of a 65 year old grandma from Texas, who has been seeing a lot of flops but not raising PF.

There are two Limpers in front of the puck & she raised 1BB, I raise 2BB & everyone else folds but her, she smooth calls.

I flop 6-7-8 & of course check, she open with a min bet and I shove & she snap calls. Has me covered by a couple grand.

The turns was a 9 & the river was a brick KING & Grandma sends me packing.

I should have shoved PF but my thinking at the time was that if she came back over top ALL IN....I could muck 66 without feeling like a total Donk.
Either way I fell like I played it wrong but inevitably after the flip, I appear to be huge & she's not going anywhere.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Jay, my 2-cents. Again, these are MY amateur opinions:

* I don't mind your play. In some ways, u did get coolered. Some thoughts:

I am very used to playing these "turbo" tournaments, where stack depths are marginalized by the 1st break. You're holding 18BB, so you have a limited # of moves left. Mentally, when I'm at <20BB, I feel like I can call once OR move all-in.

When she raises Pre-flop, I personally feel like I Call or go All-in. By raising, you're very close to being pot-committed. I mentally use a 25% of Stack rule. Your 4BB bet is 22% of 18BB stack. If u had gone all-in in THIS particular situation, I still think u get called. I don't think she folds unless she's SUPER-TIGHT.

Post-Flop, I just think the $$ is going in. U have Set on wet-board. She has Overpair on top of StraightDraw, which is a very strong holding.

Even if u just call Pre-Flop, the $$ is going in. Either on Flop or on Turn.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Wanted to stress one concept that I've listed previously:

* Opponent's betting patterns represents an Exploding Bet Ratio.

Some people will call losing w/ a "good" hand a "cooler" when it loses to a better hand.

Doesn't have to always play out like that. Consider the phrase I call "Exploding Bet Ratio."

If opponent was betting $2 Pre-flop but wakes up on Flop/Turn...to the point of betting a HUGE amount like $100. Don't think about it too hard...they made their hand. They didn't grow more fond of their hand. They MADE their hand.

I'm usually pretty aware of this, but I've been burnt, too. If Opponent tries to enter pot cheaply and later bets like he discovered Plutonium...it's b/c he did. His hand is now Gold. Show it proper respect. Your top-pair is no good.

I'm going to re-post this. Just b/c it's a weakness for me. When Opponent's Bet-size is growing exponentially, have to show proper respect.

[Jayvegas420]

I'm not so concerned about the result of the hand, that was inevitable.
I'm more concerned with whether I got my roll in good. At the right street.
Might have been stupid to throw out that min raise PF, only to fold if she comes over top.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXGCa2a4NMY

Neeme has pretty good VLOGs. At 21:00, he makes good comment. "Have to forgive yourself for making mistakes."

I like it. OK to make mistakes, but u have to learn from them. Live + learn. Get better for next time.

[daneblazer]

I'm going to re-post this. Just b/c it's a weakness for me. When Opponent's Bet-size is growing exponentially, have to show proper respect.

These bets boil down to player type. If it's a nit or station, like less than 1% chance the spaz shove/overbet is a bluff. Bad lag, maniac, or sometimes tag the overbet or shove can be a bluff in a head to head pot. Biggest hand I've ever won, I bluff caught a busted blush draw with ace high. When in doubt and until you are comfortable making those reads, it's probably safer to fold.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Jay, I'll disagree w/ your rationale a bit here. In tournament poker, chips are so valuable.

If you're super-deep, there's wiggle room. At < 20BB, there is very little wiggle-room. Betting 22% of stack to potentially fold, I don't like it.

Keep an eye on YOUR stack + the pot size. If OldLady comes over top there, by my count...

...you'd be staring at 14 to win 26. That's about +185 odds. Not too bad for middling Pocket Pair.

I say that b/c most players HATE to play AK post-flop. They'll gladly get it in and take their chances. But they hate the idea of bricking the flop and having to bluff at it. The pro-tournament players will say that u have to take +200 odds on Any2, and scale down from there.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

These bets boil down to player type. If it's a nit or station, like less than 1% chance the spaz shove/overbet is a bluff. Bad lag, maniac, or sometimes tag the overbet or shove can be a bluff in a head to head pot. Biggest hand I've ever won, I bluff caught a busted blush draw with ace high. When in doubt and until you are comfortable making those reads, it's probably safer to fold.

Dane, depends on how the hand plays out. I mentioned a Busted Flush Draw above.

Yes, if u strongly feel like an Opponent's Draw busted on river, bluff-catching is reasonable play.

In my personal experience, I'd have to say "Hero Call" is my least profitable betting category. So often, an Opponent's bet-size is directly correlated to their hand-strength.

[Triple_D_Bet]

Chucky, we're sitting in seat 9 at the $110 nightly NL Holdem tourney at The Golden Nugget Poker Series & we have $10,800 of a starting $10,000 stack. We have just had a smoke & we are sitting down into SB after the first break. The ante is $75 & the blinds are $300/ $600 & we look down to see pocket 6's.

Now remember, this is a $110 tournament with a ton of house juice attached to it. Only $80 went into the prize pool and I'm sure there were guys playing who were drinking tons of beer just to break even on the entry fee.
Seats 1-3 & 4 are playing the loosest and have everyone out stacked by 7x-10x & I'm sitting to the left of a 65 year old grandma from Texas, who has been seeing a lot of flops but not raising PF.

There are two Limpers in front of the puck & she raised 1BB, I raise 2BB & everyone else folds but her, she smooth calls.

I flop 6-7-8 & of course check, she open with a min bet and I shove & she snap calls. Has me covered by a couple grand.

The turns was a 9 & the river was a brick KING & Grandma sends me packing.

I should have shoved PF but my thinking at the time was that if she came back over top ALL IN....I could muck 66 without feeling like a total Donk.
Either way I fell like I played it wrong but inevitably after the flip, I appear to be huge & she's not going anywhere.

You're making this way harder than it needs to be. You have enough for about 6 orbits, which is borderline shove-with-any-two territory. It definitely isn't deep enough to be betting small, especially with a weaker hand. If there's already like 6 BB in the pot, you sure as hell shouldn't be 3betting to 4 BB and giving her 5:1 ....either shove or bet about half your stack (with intention of shoving the rest on flop regardless, although this is riskier; if she bets as first to act can be tough to call). If those options aren't appealing, you can fold, that's it...you don't have room for post-flop plays or expectations at that point.

[Triple_D_Bet]

Poker is best treated as a casual hobby for the vast majority of people. Just my opinion...If you're smart enough to succeed at poker, you are smart enough to succeed at other ventures in life and the time you spend on poker can usually be better spent concentrating on something else. There are exceptions. You really have to enjoy the game and be able to emotionally survive the bad runs and flat lining for it to be worthwhile. It can be a nice income supplement and it's pretty damn cool to say you play poker for a living or even a semi pro, but money can't buy happiness and it can't buy time.

That said, I think the US has another poker boom in it if we can get it legalized. Right now it's just a hassle to play the game in most states. The player pool is much more educated than it was 10 years ago. Team that with a shitty environment for poker players and ya it's probably more relevant 10 years ago. Doesn't mean you can't get good stuff from it tho

Just the thought exercise of learning this stuff can be eye-opening...I know it was for me. The excruciating analysis isn't need though; just read harrington on holdem and you'll be ahead of at least 50% of live tourney players before you even finish the book.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

What about this spot?

* Button Opens vs SmallBlind.

My observation is that so many blind-steals are taking place from the Button. These are (often) very weak leads.

The SmallBlind is normally not getting good Calling Odds. You normally have to put in >80% of full-fare to see a flop.

You know the Button often isn't too strong (if they're opening > 40% of the time). In SmallBlind, of course you're 3-Betting w/ Premium hands. But the pros are adding Hands to their 3-betting range. Modest holdings like Low suited Aces (A5s, A4s).

They want to put the pressure back on the Button. Often, this will produce Fold from Button raise.

Follow-up comment on Post-Flop play. If SmallBlind simply Calls...that normally represents Strength. Pocket-Pair, big Ace, or Suited Broadway. It's a pretty tight range. If SB calls my open, I normally don't Fake the C-bet. I know his range is stronger than mine.

[daneblazer]

Just the thought exercise of learning this stuff can be eye-opening...I know it was for me. The excruciating analysis isn't need though; just read harrington on holdem and you'll be ahead of at least 50% of live tourney players before you even finish the book.

Yea. Learn M. Have a minimal understanding of icm, Learn what to do vs certain player types, don't get blinded out...you'll do just fine at your local poker room.

I still use skills I learned in poker in everyday life. Certainly look at risk and money management differently

[Triple_D_Bet]

What about this spot?

* Button Opens vs SmallBlind.

My observation is that so many blind-steals are taking place from the Button. These are (often) very weak leads.

The SmallBlind is normally not getting good Calling Odds. You normally have to put in >80% of full-fare to see a flop.

You know the Button often isn't too strong (if they're opening > 40% of the time). In SmallBlind, of course you're 3-Betting w/ Premium hands. But the pros are adding Hands to their 3-betting range. Modest holdings like Low suited Aces (A5s, A4s).

They want to put the pressure back on the Button. Often, this will produce Fold from Button raise.

Follow-up comment on Post-Flop play. If SmallBlind simply Calls...that normally represents Strength. Pocket-Pair, big Ace, or Suited Broadway. It's a pretty tight range. If SB calls my open, I normally don't Fake the C-bet. I know his range is stronger than mine.

Yes, people steal from late position...put them on a range of hands, do the math and figure out what you defend blind with. That's literally all there is to it.

Calling SB is strength from a good player. Plenty of weak ones will try to catch and fold to cbet....but if you don't have enough room to be OK if you don't win with cbet, you didn't have enough room to not-shove preflop in the first place.

As I said, once blinds reach a certain point, tourney poker is super-standard until you get deep in the money and every hand matters.

[Triple_D_Bet]

Yea. Learn M. Have a minimal understanding of icm, Learn what to do vs certain player types, don't get blinded out...you'll do just fine at your local poker room.

I still use skills I learned in poker in everyday life. Certainly look at risk and money management differently

I try not to educate live, but when I do occasionally describe a scenario using M, seems like I only ever get blank stares...makes me feel a lot better about continuing to play them

[ChuckyTheGoat]

I use some derivative of M-ratio. Actually met the guy who invented M-ratio (Paul Magriel). He shows up in some of the Vegas card rooms. Maybe Harrington + Magriel are actually credited w/ M-ratio.

Point is that u want to know your Chip-stack + Opponent's Stack at all times.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Got another spot to consider. BTW, this thread has gotten (mostly) positive reviews from guys like Range + BeerDog. Will continue to post, until someone tells me that it's become tiresome.

* I'm in SmallBlind and short-stacked. About 10BB. I know this is supposed to be a Shove-or-Fold spot.

But OTHER players are short-stacked, too. I mentioned the difficulty of playing strong hands (like AA) when operating w/ a short-stack. You want to get some value and not just take down the Blinds. Therefore, some players will limp AA and hope to take a passenger along for the ride.

If you're holding a speculative hand in small Blind here (like 97s), I feel like you're justified in calling 0.5BB to see Flop. Unless BB gets feisty, it's going to be a multi-way pot. Chance to flop something good. And an Overpair might just blast any flop (even if you improved beyond 1-pair).

[Triple_D_Bet]

Got another spot to consider. BTW, this thread has gotten (mostly) positive reviews from guys like Range + BeerDog. Will continue to post, until someone tells me that it's become tiresome.

* I'm in SmallBlind and short-stacked. About 10BB. I know this is supposed to be a Shove-or-Fold spot.

But OTHER players are short-stacked, too. I mentioned the difficulty of playing strong hands (like AA) when operating w/ a short-stack. You want to get some value and not just take down the Blinds. Therefore, some players will limp AA and hope to take a passenger along for the ride.

If you're holding a speculative hand in small Blind here (like 97s), I feel like you're justified in calling 0.5BB to see Flop. Unless BB gets feisty, it's going to be a multi-way pot. Chance to flop something good. And an Overpair might just blast any flop (even if you improved beyond 1-pair).

By all means keep going chuck, anyone with an issue can just not click the thread! Just pointing out that the shortcut to agonizing over all this stuff is to simply read a book which talks about all this and more.

Playing strong hands differently would be a huge alarm bell to good players...just play it as normal and get callers or don't. QQ winning the blinds isn't losing much equity compared to QQ having to go to showdown vs Ax...take the guaranteed win. If you can get value limping in for 0.5 BB, players are often weak enough to fold to your all in as well, and you can get more value by shoving. That's why shove or fold is a thing: the math makes it clear where the value lies.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Re-posting another topic that I've touched on previously:

* Post-flop, Opponent Bet-size is (usually) directly correlated to their hand-strength.

If an Opponent feels obligated to C-bet...but they don't have it, it's often a meager attempt at representing. So small that u have to call w/ anything.

If an Opponent is C-betting w/ the goods...they bet like they discovered Plutonium (b/c they did). I'm talking bets of Pot-size+.

Talk about blowing out the competition. Remember, in the Opponent mind, it isn't Value-betting. It's just "make a hand...bet the Max."

[daneblazer]

Something else you can do with your QQ hand is show it if everyone folds. That may buy you a few extra folds down the road when you shove with vulnerable hands.