Horse Racing questions and answers

[str]

Quote : A few weeks ago, I think, I wrote about running a high claimer in one of these and learning all about " since" dates and the monsters sitting on the bench getting ready to run. How would you like to be the guy in the next stall over at the gate running for 62,500? Might win, but oh my!




Answer: I don't know if that since date is used all the time or not but this looks like one of those things where a trainer has a "chat" with the racing secretary about a certain type of race he needs and pays that back by filling other small fields at some point in the meet or over time. I help you...you help me. It's politics within racing.
Again, don't know if this is that. It reminds me of it though. And it is absolutely legal. It's just one of those things fans never see happen. Just like Debbie's Turn in my case.

[JBEX]

i don't think it is in these types of races but not 100% sure..what you said could be a possibility

when you think about the fact he started at gulfstream,his pedigree and the year he had a lot is on the line beyond purses if he has a great year..as we both agree the launching point being right is very important



.

[JBEX]

so I guess debbie's turn was this type of situation ?

[str]

i don't think it is in these types of races but not 100% sure..what you said could be a possibility

when you think about the fact he started at gulfstream,his pedigree and the year he had a lot is on the line beyond purses if he has a great year..as we both agree the launching point being right is very important



.

Typically, what I am referring to is the "since a date" part of the condition. That date can be exactly 6 months, 9 months, or whatever. Not saying it happened. Just pointing out that it does happen now and then to help a high end horse start in a race other than a Stake for it's first race back from time off.

And yes, we both are on the same page with that 1st race back. Maybe less important than I, we, are making it out to be, but I'm on the outside looking in so my thoughts are based on things that might actually have little if any relevance.

The 4 horse ran in this race on January 20th. If the date of "since" was 9 months back,. so since April 20th, than this race just followed the book and pattern set of nine months.

[str]

so I guess debbie's turn was this type of situation ?

Yes. But the date DID jump to perfectly fit her timeline. Didn't realize that being a newby until the overnight came out. Lesson learned.

And she was a local Md. star who dominated there. When she went to NY and take on the best, there were mixed results.

But my Charlestown claimed, ex mid range claimer did not belong in the same gate with her. Pretty sure we did get a piece of that big purse, but it was a mistake made by a 1st year trainer for sure.

[JBEX]

Typically, what I am referring to is the "since a date" part of the condition. That date can be exactly 6 months, 9 months, or whatever. Not saying it happened. Just pointing out that it does happen now and then to help a high end horse start in a race other than a Stake for it's first race back from time off.

And yes, we both are on the same page with that 1st race back. Maybe less important than I, we, are making it out to be, but I'm on the outside looking in so my thoughts are based on things that might actually have little if any relevance.

The 4 horse ran in this race on January 20th. If the date of "since" was 9 months back,. so since April 20th, than this race just followed the book and pattern set of nine months.

yes me too on the since date (however long) ..otherwise just a regular allowance/OC


agree they probably could have found another good starting point but this is a bullseye imo


looking at at it again (and should've mentioned it before) at least 3 need the since condition (1,6,8) and more than likely the 2 and the 7 (at least 1 but doesn't go back far enough) so it wasn't just todd they were accomodating..it really fills the field

[str]

yes me too on the since date (however long) ..otherwise just a regular allowance/OC


agree they probably could have found another good starting point but this is a bullseye imo


looking at at it again (and should've mentioned it before) at least 3 need the since condition (1,6,8) and more than likely the 2 and the 7 (at least 1 but doesn't go back far enough) so it wasn't just todd they were accomodating..it really fills the field

After seeing the entries on paper, I agree. And because it is Gulfstream winter, they probably have to deal with this every year to accommodate real nice horses who are coming off layoffs from high end outfits.

[Da Manster!]

Da Man ! Somehow I missed this post until last night.

I really appreciate the kind words and you being a Bowie guy from back in the day.

God I loved that track.

And OMG, that friggin song Hi Ho Pimlico. It truly drove me crazy.

I heard that damn song 3 times a day from the middle of March until the end of May for two years at least.

They used to play it at 12:30 before the 1st race, 3:00, just after the 5th, and just before the last race EVERY DAY !!!

It would start really quietly and build up. I can STILL hear that damn song in my head. Lol.

Pimlico was very good to me over the years. A lot of history there and that's where I got to get up close to Secretariat and met his groom Eddie Sweat, who by the way is getting ready to be enshrined posthumously along with another groom whos name escapes me into a subset of the horse racing HALL OF FAME. Don't know the exact name of that branch but I heard it's coming later this year or thereabouts. With no place to honor grooms and backstretch workers in horse racing, this is way overdue. Without them, nobody wins a race.

Also, thank you, along with everyone else that did so, for the nomination of this thread. It's been a long run and I've enjoyed every minute of it. I hope it goes for 13 more years. I always enjoyed talking with people that went to the track. I was one of those before I started full time there.

I hope you get a chance to skim through the years and find some posts that hit home with Bowie or other Md. racing chat. If you do, please ask away as you see fit.
All the best my friend. Glad to see you in here. Oh, and, nice pun.

str (which if you look closely at the blinkers of the horse in my avatar, were on most of my blinkers way back when). The entire staff of the racing secretary's office called me that. Lol. I've been called worse.

Excellent post STR! both of us were very lucky to grow up in the DMV! especially in Maryland! Good horse tracks all around us! Pimlico, Bowie, Laurel, Preakness, etc! and what memories with that song! I still remember it like it was yesterday!...

[JBEX]

here are the races and post times .. locked (other derby future) is more of my own interest but figure put it here anyway


gulfstream

R6 #5 kingsbarns (8-5) @ 1:44

R14 fountain of youth @ 6:10
#8 locked (5-2)

.
aqueduct
R10 gotham stakes @ 5:36

#3 deterministic (9-2)


.

[str]

here are the races and post times .. locked (other derby future) is more of my own interest but figure put it here anyway


gulfstream

R6 #5 kingsbarns (8-5) @ 1:44

R14 fountain of youth @ 6:10
#8 locked (5-2)

.
aqueduct
R10 gotham stakes @ 5:36

#3 deterministic (9-2)


.

Thanks JBEX.

You have mapped out my day.

I don't even have a future bet but I'm still pumped up for you guys.

I'll be watching.

[JBEX]

Thanks JBEX.

You have mapped out my day.

I don't even have a future bet but I'm still pumped up for you guys.

I'll be watching.

no problem str ..only damper ,pun intended, is more than likely aqueduct will be sloppy ..his sire's progeny love off tracks so makes up for it a bit..definitely a fun day

[JBEX]

no problem str ..only damper ,pun intended, is more than likely aqueduct will be sloppy ..his sire's progeny love off tracks so makes up for it a bit..definitely a fun day

seems like rain amounts have been lowered about a quarter inch from yesterday and will probably come in at under a half inch

[JBEX]

here are the races and post times .. locked (other derby future) is more of my own interest but figure put it here anyway


gulfstream

R6 #5 kingsbarns (8-5) @ 1:44

R14 fountain of youth @ 6:10
#8 locked (5-2)

.
aqueduct
R10 gotham stakes @ 5:36

#3 deterministic (9-2)


.

scratched..probably end of his derby hopes
unless they're going to try with one prep

[str]

scratched..probably end of his derby hopes
unless they're going to try with one prep

Locked being scratched is not what Todd wanted. I did not hear as to why but even a fever would set him back.
That’s a tough one. We will see but I agree that the Derby is a big ask. We will see if we get more clarity.

Kingsbarns I am quietly pleased with his effort.
Relax- yes
Behind leaders -yes
Went inside horses -yes
Answered when asked -yes
Galloped out and looked good coming back —. ? Who would know. Coverage is terrible. But if you want to know about the money line in the NBA I got to see that.
What a clown show. And… you can hang out with Tom Brady At Gulfstream. Woo Hoo.
They make me puke. Lol.

[Easy-Rider 66]

Locked being scratched is not what Todd wanted. I did not hear as to why but even a fever would set him back.
That’s a tough one. We will see but I agree that the Derby is a big ask. We will see if we get more clarity.

Kingsbarns I am quietly pleased with his effort.
Relax- yes
Behind leaders -yes
Went inside horses -yes
Answered when asked -yes
Galloped out and looked good coming back —. ? Who would know. Coverage is terrible. But if you want to know about the money line in the NBA I got to see that.
What a clown show. And… you can hang out with Tom Brady At Gulfstream. Woo Hoo.
They make me puke. Lol.

Fanduel TV STR? I watch the live feed on RTN.

[str]

[/B]Fanduel TV STR? I watch the live feed on RTN.

Help me out EZ.
Where do I find RTN. Asking for an old friend that is clueless. Lol.

[Easy-Rider 66]

Help me out EZ.
Where do I find RTN. Asking for an old friend that is clueless. Lol.

Racetrack television network. Check the website. you can watch on tv as well on some apps. I watch on the computer.

[Easy-Rider 66]

Hey STR have you seen any Laurel Park races with the percentage predictor?

[str]

Racetrack television network. Check the website. you can watch on tv as well on some apps. I watch on the computer.

You are “ my man” EZ.
I prefer to watch on the computer.
Appreciate it.

[Easy-Rider 66]

You are “ my man” EZ.
I prefer to watch on the computer.
Appreciate it.

but STR it's $15 a month to subscribe and you get all N. American t-breds tracks live and replay. And some international tracks as well. For 50 cents a day a great deal.

[str]

but STR it's $15 a month to subscribe and you get all N. American t-breds tracks live and replay. And some international tracks as well. For 50 cents a day a great deal.

I'll look at the website asap.

Thanks again !

[Easy-Rider 66]

I'll look at the website asap.

Thanks again !

you also get the Capital OTB Network channel which show harness as well like Meadowlands, Yonkers, Woodbine Mohawk etc. any questions hit me back. and fox horse network show too.

[captrobey]

How should i have bet this

[JBEX]

Locked being scratched is not what Todd wanted. I did not hear as to why but even a fever would set him back.
That’s a tough one. We will see but I agree that the Derby is a big ask. We will see if we get more clarity.

Kingsbarns I am quietly pleased with his effort.
Relax- yes
Behind leaders -yes
Went inside horses -yes
Answered when asked -yes
Galloped out and looked good coming back —. ? Who would know. Coverage is terrible. But if you want to know about the money line in the NBA I got to see that.
What a clown show. And… you can hang out with Tom Brady At Gulfstream. Woo Hoo.
They make me puke. Lol.

I agree with your kingsbarns assessment..he answered some questions regarding his running style but it wasn't a "wow" type of effort you might have expected at this level ..the leader was unchallenged and the fractions were fast so maybe it was a bit of an advantage to stay on the rail the whole way .. cautiously optimistic going forward with him

[JBEX]

encouraging to see deterministic get out alertly and right into the flow as he didn’t do that winning his debut in his only other start.. rosario wanted to go outside at the top of the stretch but was impeded a bit by just a touch .. may have won by more if he didn’t have to stay inside and go between horses late.. not much more to say other than it was a great effort..to win a 2nd leg derby prep in your 2nd career start when your debut was at saratoga is very impressive..guessing it will be the wood memorial next and feel good about his chances.. at least a "good" 2nd or maybe even 3rd could get him to the derby

[str]

I agree with your kingsbarns assessment..he answered some questions regarding his running style but it wasn't a "wow" type of effort you might have expected at this level ..the leader was unchallenged and the fractions were fast so maybe it was a bit of an advantage to stay on the rail the whole way .. cautiously optimistic going forward with him

I get the "not a wow type effort", and I agree, but I am thinking that Todd was so focused on getting him back to his old self mentally, he didn't drill him too much and get him all amped up. That would fit correctly if it's indeed correct.
We will see next out if he moves forward, which if what I am talking about is correct, we should see.

Sure hope so but a solid return to action for him yesterday IMO.

[str]

How should i have bet this

Lol. These things are always a mess. The whatever that is supposed to be on the lead has it's head straight up. If it starts raining, he will probably drown. The one to his outside is running sideways. Can't save ground going a 1/16th on a straightaway. The thing in the 3 stall dwelt. Love the little kid next to the starter on the rail.

Only way to bet that is to watch them warm up I guess. Haha.

[str]

encouraging to see deterministic get out alertly and right into the flow as he didn’t do that winning his debut in his only other start.. rosario wanted to go outside at the top of the stretch but was impeded a bit by just a touch .. may have won by more if he didn’t have to stay inside and go between horses late.. not much more to say other than it was a great effort..to win a 2nd leg derby prep in your 2nd career start when your debut was at saratoga is very impressive..guessing it will be the wood memorial next and feel good about his chances.. at least a "good" 2nd or maybe even 3rd could get him to the derby

A very impressive effort I think JBEX. All you mentioned are real positive things. He is a nice ticket to have my friend.

He ran faster than the olders and showed up and ran like a good horse does. Just can't have asked for more than that.

Excited to see him run back. That was a very good find.

Nice job !

[JBEX]

A very impressive effort I think JBEX. All you mentioned are real positive things. He is a nice ticket to have my friend.

He ran faster than the olders and showed up and ran like a good horse does. Just can't have asked for more than that.

Excited to see him run back. That was a very good find.

Nice job !

thanks str and was aware they went faster then their elders in the prior race..hopefully he's OK and will have something nice to root for in a final prep which I guess will be the wood ..hard level to try two turns for the first time but no choice at this point


nothing at kee is a good fit for kingsbarns imo..both aqueduct and gulfstream have a 2 turn g3 route on 3/30..1 1/8 and 1 1/16 respectively..would think if that was the choice the latter would be more appealing ..will keep tabs on both over the next few weeks


.

[str]

I saw a very old post of mine in here where I responded to the question about future Derby betting.

My answer at that time was that I suggested not doing it. That was based solely on value of that exact bet.


In hind sight, I should have made things more clear. Sure, betting futures is a tough way to make a buck. No question about it. But... the amount of involvement, watching races, and form study is such a big plus that if it takes a few bucks to get a player that wants to learn the game from the inside out, I think it is a great investment.

Being involved in a future play or two at high odds leads you to watching and learning so many things, many that you probably never noticed before, that will ultimately help your overall handicapping down the road that I would even recommend it, as long as you have recreational time and the interest to follow it forward.

Workout patterns, trainer patterns, decisions made by riders as well as trainers, watching these preps and learning from what you see, it all adds up to being a better horse player.
If you don't have the time or the interest, I get it. But if you do, and want to be better at handicapping and knowing what you are watching which includes seeing more things that take place during a race, it can be a learning tool that is well worth a small enjoyable wager.

And of course, any questions as to what you saw or maybe did not see in a race ? Just ask away. I'm happy to help.

GL everyone.

[JBEX]

I saw a very old post of mine in here where I responded to the question about future Derby betting.

My answer at that time was that I suggested not doing it. That was based solely on value of that exact bet.


In hind sight, I should have made things more clear. Sure, betting futures is a tough way to make a buck. No question about it. But... the amount of involvement, watching races, and form study is such a big plus that if it takes a few bucks to get a player that wants to learn the game from the inside out, I think it is a great investment.

Being involved in a future play or two at high odds leads you to watching and learning so many things, many that you probably never noticed before, that will ultimately help your overall handicapping down the road that I would even recommend it, as long as you have recreational time and the interest to follow it forward.

Workout patterns, trainer patterns, decisions made by riders as well as trainers, watching these preps and learning from what you see, it all adds up to being a better horse player.
If you don't have the time or the interest, I get it. But if you do, and want to be better at handicapping and knowing what you are watching which includes seeing more things that take place during a race, it can be a learning tool that is well worth a small enjoyable wager.

And of course, any questions as to what you saw or maybe did not see in a race ? Just ask away. I'm happy to help.

GL everyone.

agree with you on this str..lots you can learn and fun to take a position besides..understand I'm a little biased on this with a few positions still alive


question on what i feel my best chance is with deterministic


considering the challenges of age, the distances (7f and 1TM), layoff,debut,track condition and class in his first two starts do you think going 2 turns with a race in him might actually be an easier task than what he's tried so far ?


1TM = 1 turn mile

[str]

agree with you on this str..lots you can learn and fun to take a position besides..understand I'm a little biased on this with a few positions still alive


question on what i feel my best chance is with deterministic


considering the challenges of age, the distances (7f and 1TM), layoff,debut,track condition and class in his first two starts do you think going 2 turns with a race in him might actually be an easier task than what he's tried so far ?


1TM = 1 turn mile

I think that anytime a horse can run a bit more reserved early, that will always be more manageable for the horse overall than if they are physically pushed to their limits.
However, it becomes ALL about the mentality of the horse in that exact situation. What I mean is, if they have a chance to relax and pace their breathing , will they indeed do that? Or will the intensity of the moment and two turn experience be too much to overcome. Will they control their inner workings mentally, or will the moment get them off topic and they fall prey to the difficult situation because of the newness of the moment?
Does that make sense?
We saw the moment and situation eat up Kingsbarns with lingering side affects in the Derby. In his position of only a few races and always needing to give AND learn more each race, it is not uncommon and should be understood by his trainer. ( Something I had no idea existed when I first started training, nor would close to any trainer with limited experience like I had. Four years from greenhorn to a trainer).

But in this situation, if you had a short list of trainers that had the Derby on their minds all winter, IF it was obtainable, Clement would be on that list. No, he is not a yearly Derby trainer. But he trains just like one. I met him briefly when I was at Saratoga on the backside visiting Tony D. about 10 years ago. Tony gave him very high praise back then. Tony doesn't just throw that around so I heard him loud and clear. Since then, we have seen it time after time with the horses he sends out. The guy is super at training a horse, getting them to relax, and of course, finish. And he is passing that down to his kids, the oldest of which is down in Florida overseeing Deterministic everyday.

That said, this horse , it is now obvious, has been pointing to the Derby for the entire winter. And why not? It does not hurt to point for something and then not make it unless you are pushing the limits to get there. So far from what I have seen, the horse has not been "pushed" towards the 1st Saturday in May, simply been put on a path. If he had run so-so last week, that would have been that. But he passed the test with flying colors. So... The journey continues but running two turns in my mind would seem more natural to him than running one turn. It's just his style, what little we have seen of it. And you can bet that he has a solid understanding from daily training, what two turns is all about. I have to think he has been doing a smaller version of that everyday with the clubhouse turn and far turn this winter to the point where although he has not run 2 turns yet, he has trained like it's all part of the routine. I would be very surprised if his daily routine is to start to relax through the lane the 1st time around, start to pick up the bit as he enters going down the backside, feel another gear mentally if not asked physically as he hits the far turn, and wanting to fly though the lane. while all this can be controlled by the rider, the seed gets planted all the time so it becomes a routine in the horses head. All the small details JBEX. That what sets apart ok, good and great trainers AND horses.

Plenty of critical steps remain for all the horses. Each race will answer questions along the way. The amazing thing is, as soon as the Derby has run, every horse has a new challenge. For some, it will be trying to collect themselves from tough Derby run. For others, build off of the Derby and continue forward.

I'm sure I sound like a broken record but it's all about taking steps forward and keeping your cool doing so. So you know the drill. Can he do so next out around two turns? I'll say probably yes because if their is any place to get a horse ready to relax and be totally fit, it's Payson Park in Florida. If there is a trainer that trains to relax and go on, it's C. Clement. And the horse looked like he knew what he was doing in that last race. So we will cross our fingers and continue to watch.

If Clement was switching gears because of that win and now needed to rush him, that would be a difficult ask, but this is definitely not that.

On a side note, this is two years in a row you have had a solid run in the futures at a real nice price. I have not kept up with the futures thread as much as I would like, but will get caught up soon.
Keep up the good work JBEX and all of you guys in their with you longshots. You have had me drink the Kool-Aid for Derby futures with all that can be learned and applied in everyday handicapping.

Heck of a lot of entertainment and learning for a few bucks here and there.

[Madison]

Pretty interesting claiming story

TB R11 #3 Give Me Liberty. 400K Stk today.

On 11/13 trainer/barn Brisset puts him in 62K purse, 100K claimer at CD 6.5F. Runs 8th
(Looking like a genius) trainer/barn Diordoro claims him.

2 115K MSW's 8F at OP in which he ran relatively impressive 2nd's to 2 8/5 favorites, he finds himself still a maiden but racing in a 400K stakes in his 4th start.

I would assume the Brisset connections can't be to happy??

[JBEX]

I think that anytime a horse can run a bit more reserved early, that will always be more manageable for the horse overall than if they are physically pushed to their limits.
However, it becomes ALL about the mentality of the horse in that exact situation. What I mean is, if they have a chance to relax and pace their breathing , will they indeed do that? Or will the intensity of the moment and two turn experience be too much to overcome. Will they control their inner workings mentally, or will the moment get them off topic and they fall prey to the difficult situation because of the newness of the moment?
Does that make sense?
We saw the moment and situation eat up Kingsbarns with lingering side affects in the Derby. In his position of only a few races and always needing to give AND learn more each race, it is not uncommon and should be understood by his trainer. ( Something I had no idea existed when I first started training, nor would close to any trainer with limited experience like I had. Four years from greenhorn to a trainer).

But in this situation, if you had a short list of trainers that had the Derby on their minds all winter, IF it was obtainable, Clement would be on that list. No, he is not a yearly Derby trainer. But he trains just like one. I met him briefly when I was at Saratoga on the backside visiting Tony D. about 10 years ago. Tony gave him very high praise back then. Tony doesn't just throw that around so I heard him loud and clear. Since then, we have seen it time after time with the horses he sends out. The guy is super at training a horse, getting them to relax, and of course, finish. And he is passing that down to his kids, the oldest of which is down in Florida overseeing Deterministic everyday.

That said, this horse , it is now obvious, has been pointing to the Derby for the entire winter. And why not? It does not hurt to point for something and then not make it unless you are pushing the limits to get there. So far from what I have seen, the horse has not been "pushed" towards the 1st Saturday in May, simply been put on a path. If he had run so-so last week, that would have been that. But he passed the test with flying colors. So... The journey continues but running two turns in my mind would seem more natural to him than running one turn. It's just his style, what little we have seen of it. And you can bet that he has a solid understanding from daily training, what two turns is all about. I have to think he has been doing a smaller version of that everyday with the clubhouse turn and far turn this winter to the point where although he has not run 2 turns yet, he has trained like it's all part of the routine. I would be very surprised if his daily routine is to start to relax through the lane the 1st time around, start to pick up the bit as he enters going down the backside, feel another gear mentally if not asked physically as he hits the far turn, and wanting to fly though the lane. while all this can be controlled by the rider, the seed gets planted all the time so it becomes a routine in the horses head. All the small details JBEX. That what sets apart ok, good and great trainers AND horses.

Plenty of critical steps remain for all the horses. Each race will answer questions along the way. The amazing thing is, as soon as the Derby has run, every horse has a new challenge. For some, it will be trying to collect themselves from tough Derby run. For others, build off of the Derby and continue forward.

I'm sure I sound like a broken record but it's all about taking steps forward and keeping your cool doing so. So you know the drill. Can he do so next out around two turns? I'll say probably yes because if their is any place to get a horse ready to relax and be totally fit, it's Payson Park in Florida. If there is a trainer that trains to relax and go on, it's C. Clement. And the horse looked like he knew what he was doing in that last race. So we will cross our fingers and continue to watch.

If Clement was switching gears because of that win and now needed to rush him, that would be a difficult ask, but this is definitely not that.

On a side note, this is two years in a row you have had a solid run in the futures at a real nice price. I have not kept up with the futures thread as much as I would like, but will get caught up soon.
Keep up the good work JBEX and all of you guys in their with you longshots. You have had me drink the Kool-Aid for Derby futures with all that can be learned and applied in everyday handicapping.

Heck of a lot of entertainment and learning for a few bucks here and there.

just thought "if" he could manage that first turn and settle on the backstretch it would be a less stressful early part of the race than his first two starts..maybe having experienced things in more difficult circumstances it might perk him up if he feels hes got more in the tank later in the race
..understand there's no guarantee that he will adapt to the new challenge but from what you are saying about clement i like the chances that he will..especially that tony dutrow is more reserved with praise and spoke highly of clement and that it's likely they've been exposing him to it in his regular training routine


appreciate the feedback str and look forward to his next outing wherever that may be ..don't think it necessarily has to be the wood memorial but my guess is it's the most likely spot..if it isnt my other guess would be the bluegrass at keeneland

[Madison]

SA R8 300K STK. 3/9

8 entries, 4 of which haven't run in 4 months or more. 3 of the 4 are favorites. Only in horse racing!!

Interesting breeding on the #9 American Pharaoh by Tapit. 30-1

BOL today gentlemen.