Horse Racing questions and answers

[str]

hey str

delta

R9 #6 miss e fu (9-2) 5:40

concerns me a little that after a 4 month layoff they waited another 6 weeks to run her again..then 7 weeks up to this race .. works have been swift leading up to today's race..
does that spacing bother you for today's race and her last race ? maybe there's only so many spots available in this condition..like the horse for many reasons from a capping perspective


If you don't get to it before post time like your opinion anyway

Sorry I missed this one.
I don't get the spacing. It almost has to be something physical that prevents the trainer from doing more quicker. It looks to me to be a case of just being a slow horse that needs the right company. She seems to have found it here. She could have had somewhat of a breathing problem which made her stop like she has but that is a very minor fix that usually takes about 14 days from procedure to run, if the trainer wants to.
The drop in class should help . Looks like she fits here and can compete.


Just looked at the chart. She did win and hung on late. That's a good sign. Nice pick JBEX !

Lets see if it takes her 6 weeks to get back over there in a nw/2 for the same price.

[JBEX]

Sorry I missed this one.
I don't get the spacing. It almost has to be something physical that prevents the trainer from doing more quicker. It looks to me to be a case of just being a slow horse that needs the right company. She seems to have found it here. She could have had somewhat of a breathing problem which made her stop like she has but that is a very minor fix that usually takes about 14 days from procedure to run, if the trainer wants to.
The drop in class should help . Looks like she fits here and can compete.


Just looked at the chart. She did win and hung on late. That's a good sign. Nice pick JBEX !

Lets see if it takes her 6 weeks to get back over there in a nw/2 for the same price.

thanks str..a little scary at the end lol but persevered..yes will be interesting to see how long..between evangeline and delta have to think they'll be a good spot sometime in january or possibly later this month if she's up to it..going to attempt stabling but for whatever reason never seem to get that right ..thanks for the feedback

[JBEX]

hey str


aqueduct

R9 #10 courvoisier (12-1)

I actually could see this one going off around that but I think public perception is way off on these based on..

how much he cost..

what he's done..

including 2 turn experience and bred to go the longer route like today's

trainer solid numbers in applicable categories

just because he last ran at delaware , maybe avg ny jock and kelly breen on the ny scale is a cut below the big guys..post not a plus either from where they start but does have the speed to get position


any thoughts..as usual, your busy it's a write-up

[str]

hey str


aqueduct

R9 #10 courvoisier (12-1)

I actually could see this one going off around that but I think public perception is way off on these based on..

how much he cost..

what he's done..

including 2 turn experience and bred to go the longer route like today's

trainer solid numbers in applicable categories

just because he last ran at delaware , maybe avg ny jock and kelly breen on the ny scale is a cut below the big guys..post not a plus either from where they start but does have the speed to get position


any thoughts..as usual, your busy it's a write-up

I recall NY always snubbing Monmouth And Delaware Park form when it came to betting. And while I get the idea, it is not always correct. I do not know the quality of the fields at all three tracks as to the quality of the horses. I used to. And sometimes you could find solid over lays with horses shipping into NY from places just like this one shows because you knew more than the public. Because I no longer do, I'm no help but you probably have a grip on who some of those horses that ran 1,2,3 vs. Mott and the home favs as well as who those horses were at Monmouth And Delaware Park.
Usually , the price is more than fair. It's just knowing whose who that typically points you in the right direction.

If that is the case, go for it. And yes, this horse was very expensive and could easily fit and belong in NY. If you pay that much, it better fit up there. Lol. Knowing those he and the hometown favs ran against can really help . Hope you are on that track.
Good luck JBEX !

[str]

A little over 22 years ago, I had come to the conclusion that the game had let me down. And for a while, I was pretty sure I was correct. But as I kept thinking about it, I remembered what an old groom from my earliest days told me . I have said this once or twice over the years but it is worth repeating. He said “ the games on the level. It’s some of the people in it that aren’t.”

“The Game”. What a great game it is. And it is full of some of the nicest, kindest, most thoughtful, generous, horse loving people that I have ever had the pleasure of meeting.

All of those people, no matter the track, no matter the job description, no matter their status, are heart broken this morning. Heart broken for a race horse who came from selling at auction for 1,000.00 and won the Ky. Derby. Who did what many race horses do, which is to try with all they have to win. And they are heart broken for the game.

Like him or hate him, Bob Baffert has dominated the high profile races for years. But he has also dominated the drug violations and horse deaths and therefore the headlines. His numbers are both staggering and shocking. Those headlines have helped drag the game down in the eyes of the public.

At what point do the people in the game fight FOR the game instead of doing what they have done for years. Which is nothing!

I always thought nobody could be bigger than the game. Well, it looks like the game has met its match . Especially if they continue to do nothing.
The dozens upon dozens and more of positives is reason enough. No need to drag a tragedy into it.
The excuses are laughable. The reality is enough to make you cry.
Such a sad day for a game that WAS my life, all those years ago.

[Easy-Rider 66]

^ THX for the take STR. I know your feelings on Mr. Baffert. RIP for Medina Spirit. Maybe some good can result from his passing at such a young age.

[JBEX]

very well said str..this will be an afterthought in a month or two (if even that long) ..an investigation that will lead nowhere and things will continue on as if nothing had happened..business as usual

[Thunderground]

<br>I don't get how horse racing keeps shooting itself in the foot. Baffert did train two TC winners that lifted the sport to new levels of popularity. But everybody is talking about an overage violation that would have been a fine in California, would have been identified before the race in most states, and would have been allowed at Pimlico (if I understand this analysis correctly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpFX...nnel=NBCSports). Uniform rules are on the way for next year, for all states, but horsemen are fighting it. <br><br>If horsemen are not on the same page about uniform rules that would be good for the sport, then what else is going on behind the scenes? Is the East coast happy about the success of California horses? The mystery of many deaths after the surface was changed at SA is still unsolved. Yet the other big trainer, next to Baffert, Jerry Hollendorfer, was banned for life from Stronach owned tracks (if I remember correctly) because four of those horses were trained by him. Isn't that a bit too much of a coincidence? The two biggest trainers from the West coast... So the Stronach group can just decide that for Hollendorfer, while they themselves may be to blame for the deaths (as of today, nobody knows). <br><br>As to the medicinal side, I can't speak to it. But neither can 99% of the public. I switched to holistic medicine thirty years ago, and don't trust anything 'big pharma', so I would hope that trainers would also explore holistic medicine. (as far as I'm concerned mankind is being poisoned with vaccines, with many dropping dead, but this is not a story for the corporate media; yet Baffert is... Go figure). I would love to see a movement towards holistic medicine, for animals as well as humans. Let's focus on solutions. And let's get horsemen on the same page.

As far as the beautiful Medina Spirit. He did what he came to do. Rags to riches. Then laid down on the track after a workout and went on to greener pastures. Considering the insanity of mankind during our covid era, this makes me slightly envious. Good for him that he won't have to stand stud.

[str]

<br>I don't get how horse racing keeps shooting itself in the foot. Baffert did train two TC winners that lifted the sport to new levels of popularity. But everybody is talking about an overage violation that would have been a fine in California, would have been identified before the race in most states, and would have been allowed at Pimlico (if I understand this analysis correctly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpFX...nnel=NBCSports). Uniform rules are on the way for next year, for all states, but horsemen are fighting it. <br><br>If horsemen are not on the same page about uniform rules that would be good for the sport, then what else is going on behind the scenes? Is the East coast happy about the success of California horses? The mystery of many deaths after the surface was changed at SA is still unsolved. Yet the other big trainer, next to Baffert, Jerry Hollendorfer, was banned for life from Stronach owned tracks (if I remember correctly) because four of those horses were trained by him. Isn't that a bit too much of a coincidence? The two biggest trainers from the West coast... So the Stronach group can just decide that for Hollendorfer, while they themselves may be to blame for the deaths (as of today, nobody knows). <br><br>As to the medicinal side, I can't speak to it. But neither can 99% of the public. I switched to holistic medicine thirty years ago, and don't trust anything 'big pharma', so I would hope that trainers would also explore holistic medicine. (as far as I'm concerned mankind is being poisoned with vaccines, with many dropping dead, but this is not a story for the corporate media; yet Baffert is... Go figure). I would love to see a movement towards holistic medicine, for animals as well as humans. Let's focus on solutions. And let's get horsemen on the same page.

As far as the beautiful Medina Spirit. He did what he came to do. Rags to riches. Then laid down on the track after a workout and went on to greener pastures. Considering the insanity of mankind during our covid era, this makes me slightly envious. Good for him that he won't have to stand stud.

Nice to hear from you.

There are a lot of questions in this post. I will do my best to answer them. Some answers are fact, some will have to be opinion because I was not in the room at the time.

Q. I don't get how horse racing keeps shooting itself in the foot.

A. This has gone on since long before I was around. While serving on the board of the Horseman's Protective Benevolent Assn. which I was voted onto at the ripe old age of 22 years old by my piers, I sat next to and became very good friends with Frank De Frances. He was a brilliant man, a high powered Washington DC lawyer, and a friend. He taught me more in those few years than than I would have learned in a lifetime on my own. He told me way back then that there is no way horse racing would ever evolve into what it could be as long boards like the one we sat on together, ran a states industry. The level of horsemanship was high on that board. The level of understanding economics and reality was as low as it could be. And he was right.

Our board had the power to make policy. And we did. Some highly important decisions were made during my time there. ( I served one term and wanted out. I could not stand to be part of that ridiculous board that had some of the dumbest, load mouthed, trainers, that because they were older, talked down to anyone that dare question their narrow minded, uneducated, drivel.)

Frank left the board as well because he was to become the owner of Laurel raceway which became Freestate raceway, a harness track just up the street from Laurel Park. A few years after that, he became the owner of Laurel Race Course .

During that time, that board made decisions on probably the most important piece of legislation racing has had. Lasix. I regret to this day my vote on that subject. At the time it seemed to all make sense. But over generations it has become clear that it weakened the sport and the breed terribly, IMO.

Q. Baffert did train two TC winners that lifted the sport to new levels of popularity. But everybody is talking about an overage violation that would have been a fine in California, would have been identified before the race in most states, and would have been allowed at Pimlico (if I understand this analysis correctly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpFX...nnel=NBCSports).

A. He did train 2 TC winners which helped the sport. However, it can certainly be argued that Justify, had his positive test in the SA Derby been made public prior to the Derby, which it most certainly should have, would not have been eligible to run in the Derby. The shenanigans within that story is a disgrace in itself. But the spin, along with the next shoe dropping and the next shoe dropping allows us to forget the details.
The frustration with this is that in the YouTube clip, they talk about a picogram. They allude to how small one picogram is. One trillionth of a gram. Yes, that is small. But, it was large enough for me to serve 10 days and lose a 2nd place purse at Pimlico in the late 70's because my horse came back with one trillionth of a gram of a banned substance in her. One picogram. Records showed that that picogram came from a series of antibiotics that were given for an infection in her hip due to a rat bite at lovely Pimlico.( As hard as we tried to keep an immaculate shed row, that place was a shithole. That old barn has since been torn down.) The stop time for that drug was 7 days before the race. I stopped at 13 days before the race. But still had that one picogram show up. All shots were administered by the vet. Never anyone else in all my years on the track. Never.

That was my only positive test in over 7,000 starters. But it was a positive and we lost on appeal to the Md. Racing Comminsion when the head of the Commission asked me on the stand if I was driving 55 and one trillionth MPH in a 55 zone, would I be speeding. I don't remember my exact answer but I recall saying something to the affect of, "I guess it depends who was driving the car". He didn't like that. But I was going to lose no matter what anyway so I thought I would throw that out there. Guess I was a young wiper snapper in his eyes.
What I feel to this day was if it was Bud Delp or my mentor, they would have let him off. Might sound bitter about it but I am not. That's life and the big names get special treatment, just like in what we are talking about IMO.

But back to the picogram story, as I said, on You Tube they talk about one picogram just like the lawyer said. But it WAS NOT one picogram in Medina Spirit's test. It was 21 picograms. That's 21 times the amount the lawyer and people speaking on the subject leads the public to believe with spin.

I do not know the tolerance level of Pimlico for that substance or anywhere else. But... If I am a trainer from Calif. that has had many many positives prior to this, and I run at least one horse EVERY YEAR in Ky. in the Derby as well as the Preakness, you can bet your ass that I know, exactly, the rules of those states going in. And so would Bob. The vets that he employs from Ky. and Md. for those races each year certainly know those rules.
Above that, for a vet to give that ointment to the Baffert barn TWICE in April leading up to the Derby inexcusable. This is vet work 101 on the backside. I understand people do not know this, but I lived it and I do. And so does Bob and every other trainer with half a brain in there head. And it is this reason, that makes this whole thing stink if you are someone that lived it and truly understands it. What is being portrayed makes absolutely no sense if you understand the inner workings of a barn. And THAT barn, with the greatest collection of horses in the world? It's simply unfathomable.

Q. Uniform rules are on the way for next year, for all states, but horsemen are fighting it. If horsemen are not on the same page about uniform rules that would be good for the sport, then what else is going on behind the scenes?

A. Having explained who makes up most of these "Horsemen Boards", all they know how to do is fight anything but status quo. Sadly, other than horses exactly, too many of these "board" members are simply not equipped to make serious decisions about the sport. these votes used to be all in favor raise your hand votes. So, the pier pressure was high. If I voted against something at the age of 22 that an old established trainer disagreed with, you can bet the next morning he was smearing me to anyone that would listen, including management, where in my case, his wife conveniently worked as a stewards secretary. Think about that for a minute.

Q. Is the East coast happy about the success of California horses?

A. There has always been a rivalry between east and west. Seems like the west has dominated for so long, there isn't much of a rivalry anymore. But other than that, I don't know what bearing it would have on this subject. If you expound on that, I will be happy to answer it.

Q. The mystery of many deaths after the surface was changed at SA is still unsolved.

A. I think it has been solved. The surface was terrible, it was fixed as well as it can be, and they rarely train on sloppy tracks . They seem to cancel when heavy rain comes in. All good things IMO.
Other than that, it's been kept out of the news by many less fatalities and management keeping a low profile on the subject. Good PR move IMO.

Q. Yet the other big trainer, next to Baffert, Jerry Hollendorfer, was banned for life from Stronach owned tracks (if I remember correctly) because four of those horses were trained by him. Isn't that a bit too much of a coincidence? The two biggest trainers from the West coast... So the Stronach group can just decide that for Hollendorfer, while they themselves may be to blame for the deaths (as of today, nobody knows).

A. No sense on me commenting on the Stronach situation because I don't really know what is going on behind the scenes there. I have no problem commenting what I absolutely know but in this case, I'm an outsider. I will say that they showed me all I needed to see when they could have had the casinos at Laurel and Pimlico which would have been a HUGE move , one that was fought for years and decades by horsemen and management all get thrown away when they failed to send a check in with the bid for those rights. Whoops.

Q. As to the medicinal side, I can't speak to it. But neither can 99% of the public

A. That is why I am. But only what I know, not what I think.

Q. I switched to holistic medicine thirty years ago, and don't trust anything 'big pharma', so I would hope that trainers would also explore holistic medicine. I would love to see a movement towards holistic medicine, for animals as well as humans. Let's focus on solutions. And let's get horsemen on the same page.

A. You will be pleased to know that horsemen DO use this approach. I did in the 90's and I was not alone then. I have to think it has become more popular since then but I cannot say to what extent.

Q. (as far as I'm concerned mankind is being poisoned with vaccines, with many dropping dead, but this is not a story for the corporate media; yet Baffert is... Go figure)

A. Once this topic became political, especially today where you can get your "news" in any version you choose by selecting different channels, I was done with it.
Baffert is because of the outrageous totals of positives as well as the outrageous amount of sudden deaths that he has pilled up. When you are the top dog, you can expect more scrutiny no matter the sport. Like LeBron and whatever he says vs. what a small forward from the the Pistons would say. Or what Arron Rodgers says vs. what Jacksonville's backup QB thinks about the subject. It goes with the territory in any sport and most walks of life for that matter.

Q. As far as the beautiful Medina Spirit. He did what he came to do. Rags to riches. Then laid down on the track after a workout and went on to greener pastures.

A. It was terrible news to hear. My guess , and it is only a guess, is heart failure or a ruptured aorta. Both fairly common when these cases occur and the horse does that. But it is just a guess. At least he didn't suffer.
We will hear in due time I guess.

Hope all this helps. Any follow ups, feel free.

All the best.

[JBEX]

turfway


R8 #7 high meadows (10-1)

hey str

wanted to see what you think of this one

what I see..


did some running in his first two races against much better

wide post at churchill off a 6+ week layoff and did nothing..possible she's just a hurting horse but would like to hold some hope because of that post, ran vs better company and potential for a big price here

has some nice works mixed in including his last one 5 days ago on the churchill training track

pretty nice purse for a 15k mcl race.. only cost $28kearlier this year so this is a more realistic spot than first 3 races

understand its tapeta but like that her first 2 were on the turf.. always consider that a possible indicator more-so than dirt that she might take to this surface


both the also eligibles are out and it's a 12 horse field..
any opinions on the race go right ahead.. if you can't, as always, it's a write-up

[Easy-Rider 66]

Hey STR: I hit you up with 200 points in Post #5360. Owe you 500 more ducks and will pay there. Vene hit me up with some points today. THX for the front.

[str]

turfway



R8 #7 high meadows (10-1)

hey str

wanted to see what you think of this one

what I see..


did some running in his first two races against much better

wide post at churchill off a 6+ week layoff and did nothing..possible she's just a hurting horse but would like to hold some hope because of that post, ran vs better company and potential for a big price here

has some nice works mixed in including his last one 5 days ago on the churchill training track

pretty nice purse for a 15k mcl race.. only cost $28kearlier this year so this is a more realistic spot than first 3 races

understand its tapeta but like that her first 2 were on the turf.. always consider that a possible indicator more-so than dirt that she might take to this surface


both the also eligibles are out and it's a 12 horse field..
any opinions on the race go right ahead.. if you can't, as always, it's a write-up

She fits the others. Probably right where she belongs.

The old adage " no hop like the drop". Lol.

I have no problem with that play.

Go for it.

Gl.

[JBEX]

She fits the others. Probably right where she belongs.

The old adage " no hop like the drop". Lol.

I have no problem with that play.

Go for it.

Gl.

ok str ..thanks for the feedback

[Thunderground]

Thanks str. Great insight, as always.

I've been slow to 'attack' Baffert for two reasons.
1) my mentor told me that the big trainers, like Pletcher and Baffert, get first shot at the best horses, so they don't need to cheat.
2) the program I was able to write, thanks to all the insight offered by the same mentor, focuses on the form of day. As such, it is very easy to see which trainers cheat, because their horses will perform well when their form of day is poor. These trainers stick out like sore thumbs.

The reason I had to identify those trainers is that they steal money from exotic players. I prefer to skip those races. From my practical perspective, whatever Baffert does or does not do, does not affect the outcome of the race. When his horses have poor form of day, they will not perform well. That's my measuring stick. It doesn't mean that Baffert is doing it all by the book. I know that he doesn't. But, for me, in my own experience, it doesn't cross the line.

It was a lot of fun to write that program, and I would have considered it absolutely impossible until you started this thread. One thing led to the next. The problem on the chopping block now is perhaps the most abstract. What is luck? (app in beta testing).

So I have to keep my focus positive and creative. As a matter of survival. Horse racing is not perfect. I know that. But as a microscosm it is incredibly beautiful compared to just about any other microcosm I have come across.

Have a great day, and thanks for all the insight.

[Easy-Rider 66]

A little over 22 years ago, I had come to the conclusion that the game had let me down. And for a while, I was pretty sure I was correct. But as I kept thinking about it, I remembered what an old groom from my earliest days told me . I have said this once or twice over the years but it is worth repeating. He said “ the games on the level. It’s some of the people in it that aren’t.”

“The Game”. What a great game it is. And it is full of some of the nicest, kindest, most thoughtful, generous, horse loving people that I have ever had the pleasure of meeting.

All of those people, no matter the track, no matter the job description, no matter their status, are heart broken this morning. Heart broken for a race horse who came from selling at auction for 1,000.00 and won the Ky. Derby. Who did what many race horses do, which is to try with all they have to win. And they are heart broken for the game.

Like him or hate him, Bob Baffert has dominated the high profile races for years. But he has also dominated the drug violations and horse deaths and therefore the headlines. His numbers are both staggering and shocking. Those headlines have helped drag the game down in the eyes of the public.

At what point do the people in the game fight FOR the game instead of doing what they have done for years. Which is nothing!

I always thought nobody could be bigger than the game. Well, it looks like the game has met its match . Especially if they continue to do nothing.
The dozens upon dozens and more of positives is reason enough. No need to drag a tragedy into it.
The excuses are laughable. The reality is enough to make you cry.
Such a sad day for a game that WAS my life, all those years ago.

University of Minnesota researchers will assist in investigating the death of famed Kentucky Derby winner Medina Spirit, who collapsed and died on the racetrack Monday in Arcadia, California, of a suspected cardiac event.
The horse's necropsy—the animal equivalent of an autopsy—will be conducted at the University of California, Davis. But samples of hair, blood, and heart tissue are en route to the College of Veterinary Medicine's (CVM) Equine Genetics and Genomics Laboratory, where scientists studying cardiac arrhythmias and sudden cardiac death in racehorses will apply their expertise to the overall picture of the 3-year-old colt's death.
Unlike the breakneck pace for which he was famous in life, the study of Medina Spirit's death will be slow and methodical. California racing authorities have said there is no timetable for necropsy results but that it could take months. The CVM researchers will release the results of their analysis to the California Horse Racing Board separately, and likely much later. Ultimately, to buttress the necropsy, the researchers hope to determine whether Medina Spirit had specific genetic factors putting him at risk for sudden cardiac death.

[Thunderground]

Five years in prison for one of the cheaters: https://www.horseracingnation.com/ne...s4s9GXMWC933u0
Would that make a difference for others in that camp?

[str]

Five years in prison for one of the cheaters: https://www.horseracingnation.com/ne...s4s9GXMWC933u0
Would that make a difference for others in that camp?

It already has for a number of trainers. But not all of them.

If you took a program from just before those indictments were served at many tracks and looked at the trainers that were constantly 25-35% win rate trainers and looked at a program now or in the past few months I think you would see that some names of perennial winners are now not there. What happened?
I don't mean guys that get hot for a while. That happens for plenty of honest reasons, many of which I have talked about in here. I mean meet after meet they were always strong and now they are no longer strong. There are a couple in Md. that come to mind but I don't follow the other places. But it is there to see.

As for the verdict. That needed to happen as did the strong language by the judge. What I was looking for was the reaction from the charged trainer as well as others. The " others" will show in time but we saw the guilty party react for all to see. He showed true emotion in front of the judge, saying he was sorry and weeping. But then, he found himself making an excuse for it. Saying, in so many words, that he thought the only way he would ever get really nice horses was to do what he was doing. Wow.

But the telling tale for me was when he was no longer in front of the judge and the verdict had been read. He acted differently outside the courtroom in response to a question from a DRF reporter. My take on his response was that he insinuated that many many people are cheating but he got caught. I find that insulting and an excuse. That is just my opinion and maybe I'm wrong but it is how I feel.

Lastly, Coach John Wooten said: "The true test of a man's character is what he does when no one is watching".

That pretty much sums things up for me.



Here is what I am talking about:

Navarro, given the opportunity to address the court, read prepared remarks apologizing to the court and the government “and most of all to my family and racetrack family.”
He grew emotional as he talked about how he succumbed to pressure to become a top trainer because “I thought I had to win to become respected in the horse racing industry. I wanted to train top-quality horses and I lost my way and betrayed the horse business I loved so much.
“I should have quit when I couldn’t handle the pressure,” Navarro added.
Outside the court as he left with his family – including his wife, Jennifer, who sobbed often during the proceedings – Navarro was asked by Daily Racing Form if he had any comment on the sentencing.
“The day they catch everyone, we’ll talk,” he said.

[Thunderground]

Thanks str,

I think I would be paranoid about the security of horses in their barns. Does such fear exist among trainers?

Medicine, as the present world is showcasing, is a highly volatile topic. Coming from the holistic corner, I would be inclined to label 90 percent of modern pharma as a scam; not intended to solve problems, but designed to make people come back for more (or, worse, control them). But I'm aware that many people assign a near godlike status to their doctors, so I have to respect their attitudes as well. I'm just wondering if this dynamic would also spill over into horse racing. Are there trainers who turn to medicine too easily, not to cheat, but to err on the side of caution, for instance? A million dollar car is not the same as a 20K car, so ...

[str]

Thanks str,

I think I would be paranoid about the security of horses in their barns. Does such fear exist among trainers?

Medicine, as the present world is showcasing, is a highly volatile topic. Coming from the holistic corner, I would be inclined to label 90 percent of modern pharma as a scam; not intended to solve problems, but designed to make people come back for more (or, worse, control them). But I'm aware that many people assign a near godlike status to their doctors, so I have to respect their attitudes as well. I'm just wondering if this dynamic would also spill over into horse racing. Are there trainers who turn to medicine too easily, not to cheat, but to err on the side of caution, for instance? A million dollar car is not the same as a 20K car, so ...

Q. I think I would be paranoid about the security of horses in their barns. Does such fear exist among trainers?

A. Yes. That has always been a concern. The barns are wide open. Security typically stinks from when I was there. Hell, the Lieutenant in charge of security at Laurel was paid off, and in on, a break in at my barn in the 80's when I had a very expensive sonic machine ( similar to todays version of a tens units) stolen along with some saddles from my tack room. I went to get updates on the investigation daily from him. And turned out, he was in on it. Cost him his job. Me, about 2,500. Found the machine up in Charlestown about 6 months later broken, and in a dumpster. That was decent money 40 years ago. Can't imagine the security has gotten any better. Bunch of Barney's back then.
Or thieves.
Funny ending, I ran into that Lieutenant about a year or two later. He was working as a locksmith. Fixing locks and opening car doors for people and such. Guess locks was in his blood. Lol. I can laugh now. Back then I wasn't. Worthless friggin crook.


Q. Medicine, as the present world is showcasing, is a highly volatile topic. Coming from the holistic corner, I would be inclined to label 90 percent of modern pharma as a scam; not intended to solve problems, but designed to make people come back for more (or, worse, control them). But I'm aware that many people assign a near godlike status to their doctors, so I have to respect their attitudes as well.

A. Once they found the way to stop polio and it ended, drug companies learned it would be more lucrative to maintain instead of cure. Once again, it's all about the money.

Q. Are there trainers who turn to medicine too easily, not to cheat, but to err on the side of caution, for instance?

A. Not so much. The reality is that if you are by a sire that bled, out of a mare that bled, you are going to need Lasix and probably other legal remedies to help prevent bleeding. That's just the way horses pass along traits.

With other medications for aches and pains, you use those on a case by case basis. No need to give a totally sound horse bute , and a trainer won't until race time in most cases. Why then? Well, it was my stance that the horse did not need it to train so I didn't give it ( I actually trained very few on bute) but when I compete against a full field of horses with controlled amounts of bute in them, I am going to be on a level playing field.
At first, some might not feel that way but get beat a couple of noses and that will fix that thought. In high competition, you try and level the field all you can. Not take an edge, but make sure the others are not talking that edge against you.

Same thing with Lasix, although if you scoped every horse every race and nobody ran on Lasix, or any of the 20 some other anti bleeding drugs the public knows nothing about, you would find that the vast majority of those horses showed anywhere from trace amounts of bleeding all the way up to heavy bleeding. Those other drugs I refer to do not help performance other than to help stop bleeding, but the public is unaware. Back in the hay, oats and water days of NY racing with no Lasix, those "other" anti bleeding meds were used by everybody everyday, yet to this day, I still hear people talking about the good ole days of NY racing. Lol. Dream on.

So I guess my answer would have to be, the better, smarter, more highly educated from high end trainers growing up that the trainer is, the better the chance of less drugs while training. But the weaker the trainer when it comes to knowing what to do, the more that trainer will rely on the vet and drugs to train for them. Hope that makes sense.

[JBEX]

hey str

gulfstream R2 #3 miss beth' el (9-2)

kind of an interesting race.. 20k clm for 2yo fillieswhat I see..


5th career start


broke slow ran evenly back of the pack debut

decent 3rd in poly sprint 2nd race


from 12 post start 3 going 2 turns again poly.. tough


last race breaking from the rail wins easy going the same dirt mile as today.. was dropping another level but not sure it matters that much with the surface switchunderstand there's other expenses involved but relative to what she cost and has earned this is a pretty nice spot to be in.. Up for $20k with a very nice purse relative to the class level.. was able to take to the mile very first time and from a difficult post and won going away.. figure a little low but only horse with dirt mile experience .. comes back in a similar amount of time that she did prior to her last race win

kind of short notice so if you can't I understand.. it's a write-up anyway


sorry about the clumped write-up.. my tablet behaves badly when posting and I usually do it from my phone

[str]

hey str

gulfstream R2 #3 miss beth' el (9-2)

kind of an interesting race.. 20k clm for 2yo fillieswhat I see..


5th career start


broke slow ran evenly back of the pack debut

decent 3rd in poly sprint 2nd race


from 12 post start 3 going 2 turns again poly.. tough


last race breaking from the rail wins easy going the same dirt mile as today.. was dropping another level but not sure it matters that much with the surface switchunderstand there's other expenses involved but relative to what she cost and has earned this is a pretty nice spot to be in.. Up for $20k with a very nice purse relative to the class level.. was able to take to the mile very first time and from a difficult post and won going away.. figure a little low but only horse with dirt mile experience .. comes back in a similar amount of time that she did prior to her last race win

kind of short notice so if you can't I understand.. it's a write-up anyway


sorry about the clumped write-up.. my tablet behaves badly when posting and I usually do it from my phone

I never know what to make of Poly. It wasn’t around when I did this everyday and never was able to form any kind of opinion about it.
That said, the race is essentially a n/w 2 . All the horses are pretty close according to how and for how much they won for. I can certainly see your viewpoint on this one. The only thing negative that caught my eye is the every other race trend. That might not actually exist with only four starts , different surfaces and distances. If it is real, this one should be a flat type of effort. Guess we won’t know that until it’s too late. Lol.
That trend does exist and especially in fillies. But impossible to know for sure today. I do like the rider change back to the winning rider. All in all, probably a decent play but if she doesn’t show up, give her a try next time on the good effort cycle. If she does run well, that cycle does not actually exist.
Hope that makes sense.
Good luck With the play JBEX!

[JBEX]

I never know what to make of Poly. It wasn’t around when I did this everyday and never was able to form any kind of opinion about it.
That said, the race is essentially a n/w 2 . All the horses are pretty close according to how and for how much they won for. I can certainly see your viewpoint on this one. The only thing negative that caught my eye is the every other race trend. That might not actually exist with only four starts , different surfaces and distances. If it is real, this one should be a flat type of effort. Guess we won’t know that until it’s too late. Lol.
That trend does exist and especially in fillies. But impossible to know for sure today. I do like the rider change back to the winning rider. All in all, probably a decent play but if she doesn’t show up, give her a try next time on the good effort cycle. If she does run well, that cycle does not actually exist.
Hope that makes sense.
Good luck With the play JBEX!

I view that wide post 2 back as an excuse rather than a reaction..understand that's not 100% positive thing but have to assume it's a disadvantage.. interesting that a filly might be more likely to throw a clunker than a colt after a good effort and think you've mentioned that before..used poly as an excuse and maybe that's not fair as her 2nd career race wasn't bad


main thing to me was the last race,from rail and placement today

as always appreciate the feedback str and happy holidays to you and your family

[str]

I view that wide post 2 back as an excuse rather than a reaction..understand that's not 100% positive thing but have to assume it's a disadvantage.. interesting that a filly might be more likely to throw a clunker than a colt after a good effort and think you've mentioned that before..used poly as an excuse and maybe that's not fair as her 2nd career race wasn't bad


main thing to me was the last race,from rail and placement today

as always appreciate the feedback str and happy holidays to you and your family

That outside post had to be a disadvantage. So your theory is sound I think. I like the play. But if it doesn’t pan out we might know why.
Happy holidays to you as well JBEX!
GL today.

[JBEX]

That outside post had to be a disadvantage. So your theory is sound I think. I like the play. But if it doesn’t pan out we might know why.
Happy holidays to you as well JBEX!
GL today.

thanks

[JBEX]

hey str

gulfstream

R8 #4 wolfe county (10-1)

loaded field but think this one might get lost in the shuffle a bit



what I see

very expensive horse..

nice spacing between races..

toss debut with blinkers..

2nd start at cd not bad at all..

like close to a fast pace at 1 1/8 and cuts back to 7f today

trainer roi's very solid over large samples


what you think and if you like another go right ahead

[str]

hey str

gulfstream

R8 #4 wolfe county (10-1)

loaded field but think this one might get lost in the shuffle a bit



what I see

very expensive horse..

nice spacing between races..

toss debut with blinkers..

2nd start at cd not bad at all..

like close to a fast pace at 1 1/8 and cuts back to 7f today

trainer roi's very solid over large samples


what you think and if you like another go right ahead

Interesting scenario here. The horse has stopped twice going long. It's one of two things in all probability. Physical or mental. Physical would be breathing or bleeding. No lasix and works 2 and 3 weeks after the race. So it's not that. Mental is not liking horses outside or dirt hitting him?? It's something because you just don't stop that fast because you are tired or outrun.
Blinkers came off so those were no help if indeed it was outside pressure. Probably was not.
Kind of odd but the trainer is no fool and that last work was real good.
He gets Tyler up off a terrible last race so there has to be an excuse that is legit. Horses like this come with an explanation to the jocks agent as to why he got crushed in his last start.
All in all, I like the play. The turnback is a big positive as you know. Gotta hope whatever makes him stop does not occur today. It looks like he was outside when he ran well and continued on. A replay would confirm that.
All four horses outside of him look to be ready to show speed of some sort so it will be interesting to see how he handles that, if that's even a problem. That so called problem is only a guess looking at his form with no replays.
If I knew more I would have a stronger opinion but can't just dismiss Tyler riding this one off the last race. Gotta think he is better than that.
If he runs back to that sprint race he will be tough to beat.
With a decent price, which I think you get, why not?
Probably impossible to sort out the firsters or Todd's horse and why he went from in hand to a drive so fast. No lasix there either so it wasn't that.
With most of the others you are guessing. At least yours has run a winning effort for this race before so you know he is capable, right?

Go for it and GL JBEX.

[JBEX]

Interesting scenario here. The horse has stopped twice going long. It's one of two things in all probability. Physical or mental. Physical would be breathing or bleeding. No lasix and works 2 and 3 weeks after the race. So it's not that. Mental is not liking horses outside or dirt hitting him?? It's something because you just don't stop that fast because you are tired or outrun.
Blinkers came off so those were no help if indeed it was outside pressure. Probably was not.
Kind of odd but the trainer is no fool and that last work was real good.
He gets Tyler up off a terrible last race so there has to be an excuse that is legit. Horses like this come with an explanation to the jocks agent as to why he got crushed in his last start.
All in all, I like the play. The turnback is a big positive as you know. Gotta hope whatever makes him stop does not occur today. It looks like he was outside when he ran well and continued on. A replay would confirm that.
All four horses outside of him look to be ready to show speed of some sort so it will be interesting to see how he handles that, if that's even a problem. That so called problem is only a guess looking at his form with no replays.
If I knew more I would have a stronger opinion but can't just dismiss Tyler riding this one off the last race. Gotta think he is better than that.
If he runs back to that sprint race he will be tough to beat.
With a decent price, which I think you get, why not?
Probably impossible to sort out the firsters or Todd's horse and why he went from in hand to a drive so fast. No lasix there either so it wasn't that.
With most of the others you are guessing. At least yours has run a winning effort for this race before so you know he is capable, right?

Go for it and GL JBEX.

first let me correct what I said about being expensive..homebred by an elite sire out of a dam who was a good runner and produced some really good offspring ..potential there but was not a purchase


like what you said about these type of horses coming with an auto explanation as to what went wrong last out (when a better jock like tyler rides)

I watched his good race and got out alertly and was the lone stalker of the 5-2 second choice..there was a horse that came up inside of him a bit but for the most part just him..never liked that scenario especially with a legit horse on top

no question stopped abruptly last out but the combo of fast pace (at least on brisnets) and the fact he ran well at 7f two back makes me less concerned about that..maybe gulfstream will be more to his liking as more of a glib surface


todd's catching an extremely fast pace also might have had something to do with his stopping..likely up close again and todd's got another expensive firster outside of him..on fire is an understatement for what he's doing down there lol


should be an excellent race and could see a few good ones come out of this


thanks str

[JBEX]

hey str


R1 #9 afternoon anejo (3-1)

TRYING TO MAKE A CASE AGAINST IN CASE ANYBODY TAKES A QUICK GLANCE LOL


considering what he cost..

legit excuse behind a tepid pace last out..why give him up so quick for $30k


asmussen doing awful here with a decent sample size


one negative (positive for him) is the outside posts do well in turf routes

maybe another is he had him working at turfway park along the way..you would think he wouldn't do that with an expensive horse like this ..
maybe that's stretching things a bit

some red flags beyond the obvious up for $30k ..what do you think ?

[str]

hey str


R1 #9 afternoon anejo (3-1)

TRYING TO MAKE A CASE AGAINST IN CASE ANYBODY TAKES A QUICK GLANCE LOL


considering what he cost..

legit excuse behind a tepid pace last out..why give him up so quick for $30k


asmussen doing awful here with a decent sample size


one negative (positive for him) is the outside posts do well in turf routes

maybe another is he had him working at turfway park along the way..you would think he wouldn't do that with an expensive horse like this ..
maybe that's stretching things a bit

some red flags beyond the obvious up for $30k ..what do you think ?

I get the feeling this horse just cannot run like his price tag/ pedigree suggests he might. Every is work slow. So there is a good chance that the trainer is simply putting him where he should do well.
With all the horses he has in training, this horse is simply a number. And it is one that has been disappointing so far. He could win today and the light bulb go off, if there is one. Lol. He more than likely is a horse that just lacks a lot of talent in comparison to his pedigree and price tag.
I have to think that if the horse showed anything in the morning against others that he has an ability gauge on, he would be more patient. I guess he wants to win and if he gets claimed, oh well. Also, if he was totally sound and with no problems whatsoever he might be a bit more patient. Just a guess there but that seems logical.
The whole thing is a red flag of some sort. Just not sure what. Lol.
Good luck if you play. Also, this is the kind of race where if I find a horse I like other than him, I play the other horse to win and save with a straight exacta with this big favorite on top of the one I am trying to best him with. As long as that payoff has a reasonable price. Is that how you would play the race or differently?

[JBEX]

I get the feeling this horse just cannot run like his price tag/ pedigree suggests he might. Every is work slow. So there is a good chance that the trainer is simply putting him where he should do well.
With all the horses he has in training, this horse is simply a number. And it is one that has been disappointing so far. He could win today and the light bulb go off, if there is one. Lol. He more than likely is a horse that just lacks a lot of talent in comparison to his pedigree and price tag.
I have to think that if the horse showed anything in the morning against others that he has an ability gauge on, he would be more patient. I guess he wants to win and if he gets claimed, oh well. Also, if he was totally sound and with no problems whatsoever he might be a bit more patient. Just a guess there but that seems logical.
The whole thing is a red flag of some sort. Just not sure what. Lol.
Good luck if you play. Also, this is the kind of race where if I find a horse I like other than him, I play the other horse to win and save with a straight exacta with this big favorite on top of the one I am trying to best him with. As long as that payoff has a reasonable price. Is that how you would play the race or differently?

I usually just try to beat these types and not cover in exactas..but I could see having a little hedge with him on top considering the connections



with this owner/trainer combo I think he's sound and they just are accepting he's a mediocre horse at best
..winchell is loaded and can afford to let one go ..that being said along with the other things I mentioned think he's vulnerable ..I can't figure out who I like to beat him but since we're discussing it will take a shot with somebody

[JBEX]

I usually just try to beat these types and not cover in exactas..but I could see having a little hedge with him on top considering the connections



with this owner/trainer combo I think he's sound and they just are accepting he's a mediocre horse at best
..winchell is loaded and can afford to let one go ..that being said along with the other things I mentioned think he's vulnerable ..I can't figure out who I like to beat him but since we're discussing it will take a shot with somebody

#6 harmon killer brew (5-1) scratched

[str]

#6 harmon killer brew (5-1) scratched

When I was 10 years old, I saw him hit a ball against the Senators down the left field line that was the highest, longest hit home run that I had ever seen. I can still see it. He could bomb it out JBEX.

[JBEX]

When I was 10 years old, I saw him hit a ball against the Senators down the left field line that was the highest, longest hit home run that I had ever seen. I can still see it. He could bomb it out JBEX.

he was a great player but I was a little young for him (at least his better years)..read that he hit balls where nobody else could and obviously by what your saying you would agree

[Thunderground]

Q. I think I would be paranoid about the security of horses in their barns. Does such fear exist among trainers?

A. Yes. That has always been a concern. The barns are wide open. Security typically stinks from when I was there. Hell, the Lieutenant in charge of security at Laurel was paid off, and in on, a break in at my barn in the 80's when I had a very expensive sonic machine ( similar to todays version of a tens units) stolen along with some saddles from my tack room. I went to get updates on the investigation daily from him. And turned out, he was in on it. Cost him his job. Me, about 2,500. Found the machine up in Charlestown about 6 months later broken, and in a dumpster. That was decent money 40 years ago. Can't imagine the security has gotten any better. Bunch of Barney's back then.
Or thieves.
Funny ending, I ran into that Lieutenant about a year or two later. He was working as a locksmith. Fixing locks and opening car doors for people and such. Guess locks was in his blood. Lol. I can laugh now. Back then I wasn't. Worthless friggin crook.


Q. Medicine, as the present world is showcasing, is a highly volatile topic. Coming from the holistic corner, I would be inclined to label 90 percent of modern pharma as a scam; not intended to solve problems, but designed to make people come back for more (or, worse, control them). But I'm aware that many people assign a near godlike status to their doctors, so I have to respect their attitudes as well.

A. Once they found the way to stop polio and it ended, drug companies learned it would be more lucrative to maintain instead of cure. Once again, it's all about the money.

Q. Are there trainers who turn to medicine too easily, not to cheat, but to err on the side of caution, for instance?

A. Not so much. The reality is that if you are by a sire that bled, out of a mare that bled, you are going to need Lasix and probably other legal remedies to help prevent bleeding. That's just the way horses pass along traits.

With other medications for aches and pains, you use those on a case by case basis. No need to give a totally sound horse bute , and a trainer won't until race time in most cases. Why then? Well, it was my stance that the horse did not need it to train so I didn't give it ( I actually trained very few on bute) but when I compete against a full field of horses with controlled amounts of bute in them, I am going to be on a level playing field.
At first, some might not feel that way but get beat a couple of noses and that will fix that thought. In high competition, you try and level the field all you can. Not take an edge, but make sure the others are not talking that edge against you.

Same thing with Lasix, although if you scoped every horse every race and nobody ran on Lasix, or any of the 20 some other anti bleeding drugs the public knows nothing about, you would find that the vast majority of those horses showed anywhere from trace amounts of bleeding all the way up to heavy bleeding. Those other drugs I refer to do not help performance other than to help stop bleeding, but the public is unaware. Back in the hay, oats and water days of NY racing with no Lasix, those "other" anti bleeding meds were used by everybody everyday, yet to this day, I still hear people talking about the good ole days of NY racing. Lol. Dream on.

So I guess my answer would have to be, the better, smarter, more highly educated from high end trainers growing up that the trainer is, the better the chance of less drugs while training. But the weaker the trainer when it comes to knowing what to do, the more that trainer will rely on the vet and drugs to train for them. Hope that makes sense.

Thanks str. Much appreciated.

Losing a few times by a nose will fix a lot of things. lol (hence my study of luck)

I never really realized how polarizing the whole drug business can be until I saw it play out in society. What a ridiculous mess. Where do we even start?

Horse racing is one of a few remaining 'sanctuaries' to me, in an otherwise, I'm sad to observe, totally corrupt world. Imagine beating a guy for a fortune and then he turns around and says 'guess what, I'm too big to fail.' As soon as that term was introduced in 2008, I was done with stocks. And now we are on to mandated vaccines that were never even tested on animals. You can't make this sh*t up.

I stayed away from the ponies for a while, because of changes in my personal life. But man, what a great microcosm it is. Not perfect, but easily my favorite sport. I just try to avoid the cheaters. If I didn't recognize one, so be it. But I won't miss him again. They get a nice orange flag for a strong suspicion and a red flag if it happens again. So from a betting perspective it is a solvable problem. It would be a totally different problem from a trainer's perspective, and I apologize if I brought back some bad memories or feelings. All the best.

[str]

Thanks str. Much appreciated.

Losing a few times by a nose will fix a lot of things. lol (hence my study of luck)

I never really realized how polarizing the whole drug business can be until I saw it play out in society. What a ridiculous mess. Where do we even start?

Horse racing is one of a few remaining 'sanctuaries' to me, in an otherwise, I'm sad to observe, totally corrupt world. Imagine beating a guy for a fortune and then he turns around and says 'guess what, I'm too big to fail.' As soon as that term was introduced in 2008, I was done with stocks. And now we are on to mandated vaccines that were never even tested on animals. You can't make this sh*t up.

I stayed away from the ponies for a while, because of changes in my personal life. But man, what a great microcosm it is. Not perfect, but easily my favorite sport. I just try to avoid the cheaters. If I didn't recognize one, so be it. But I won't miss him again. They get a nice orange flag for a strong suspicion and a red flag if it happens again. So from a betting perspective it is a solvable problem. It would be a totally different problem from a trainer's perspective, and I apologize if I brought back some bad memories or feelings. All the best.

It was and still is a big problem for the industry and honest trainers which make up the vast majority of all trainers. I doubt it goes away ever, but if it is somewhat under control, maybe that's the best you can hope for. There will always be crooks in any game where money and risk is involved. Always has, always will.

As for bad memories, I promise you you did not. Some mixed feelings will always be with me to some degree along with the disappointment I felt that the game provided by letting drugs get so out of hand.

But, all the good feelings, like the sense of accomplishment, going toe to toe at the claiming box for years with great trainers, some of which are now in the Hall of Fame, (Delp and Leatherbury) as well as so many other very accomplished trainers. The friendships I made and the great people I met. From my childhood hero Mickey Mantle to a hot walker you've never heard of, and everyone in between, and of course, the work ethic I learned from my mentor and the game itself that I was lucky enough to to be a part of for all those years, will always far outweigh any negative thoughts that might rarely appear in my head.
All the best to you, Thunderground !