Horse Racing questions and answers

[JBEX]

you even have tampa bay close by and they have n1y and n2y claiming races..endless possibilities
which gIves the horse some value..ok i'll stop on this topic..thanks str

[JBEX]

hey str.. just put this up in my thread.. thought you'd find interesting.. the 3-5 was my pick.. this race was at tampa bay mcl 25k sprint

"2nd @ 3-5..first time starter won and paid around $38..passed horses around the turn like arazi in the breeders cup juvenile many years ago.. trainer's first starter going back to beginning of 2018 and she also owns the horse.. have to keep an eye out for her.. karyn phillip"


0-31 jockey aboard lol

[str]

hey str.. just put this up in my thread.. thought you'd find interesting.. the 3-5 was my pick.. this race was at tampa bay mcl 25k sprint

"2nd @ 3-5..first time starter won and paid around $38..passed horses around the turn like arazi in the breeders cup juvenile many years ago.. trainer's first starter going back to beginning of 2018 and she also owns the horse.. have to keep an eye out for her.. karyn phillip"


0-31 jockey aboard lol

2 complete no names with poor stats and the FTS horse went off 18-1 ?

Somebody knew something. That has 50-1 written all over it.

Were the exactas and doubles consistent ?

[JBEX]

2 complete no names with poor stats and the FTS horse went off 18-1 ?

Somebody knew something. That has 50-1 written all over it.

Were the exactas and doubles consistent ?

the exacta paid $112 with a 3-5 second so that wasn't played..double going forward ($6.20/166) was significantly higher and going in ($5.40/98) so about right..i'd say wasn't played in those..name of the horse"snow forecast" so anybody heading back north from a nice little florida respite might have pocketed a few sawbucks lol

[JBEX]

hey str

was thinking (don't ask me why lol) of some of the sire's back in the 80's-90's and just a few off the top of my head
(excluding the obvious ones northern dancer,mr prospector,seattle slew,storm cat etc) topsider,halo,forty
niner,private account,gulch,cure the blues to name a few..then I thought of another allen's prospect and thought I remembered him as a maryland sire..looked up to confirm and he was..mr p out of a swaps mare purchased by allen paulson at the keeneland yearling sales in 1983 for $560k..guess that would equate to a $1.5M+ horse easy today..being he was such a prominent maryland sire for all of the 90's into the early 2000's ,when he was euthanized ,do you remember having horse's by him (via the claim)..if you were interested in claiming a horse in general would the sire be a 4th or 5th (or lower) reason on occasion that would make the claim appealing to you ?

also believe he was a reasonable stud fee at the time..we're there a lot of allen's prospect's running on the maryland circuit back in those days ?

[str]

hey str

was thinking (don't ask me why lol) of some of the sire's back in the 80's-90's and just a few off the top of my head
(excluding the obvious ones northern dancer,mr prospector,seattle slew,storm cat etc) topsider,halo,forty
niner,private account,gulch,cure the blues to name a few..then I thought of another allen's prospect and thought I remembered him as a maryland sire..looked up to confirm and he was..mr p out of a swaps mare purchased by allen paulson at the keeneland yearling sales in 1983 for $560k..guess that would equate to a $1.5M+ horse easy today..being he was such a prominent maryland sire for all of the 90's into the early 2000's ,when he was euthanized ,do you remember having horse's by him (via the claim)..if you were interested in claiming a horse in general would the sire be a 4th or 5th (or lower) reason on occasion that would make the claim appealing to you ?

also believe he was a reasonable stud fee at the time..we're there a lot of allen's prospect's running on the maryland circuit back in those days ?

Q. do you remember having horse's by him (via the claim).

A. Yes. I had several. Early on, if I was not sure on if I should maybe claim the horse or not, being sired by Allen's Prospect pushed me towards doing so. But what I found out after I claimed a few of them was that the cheaper version type horse, who I suppose under achieved compared to others sired by A.P. that flourished was that they had two things in common. They were bleeders, but not necessarily bad bleeders but indeed they needed extra attention in that department and incredibly, and I say that because the good ones were gritty and real fighters through the stretch, they were chicken, or unwilling to overcome any adversity. Didn't run through holes, pin them and they quit, just for lack of a better term, just had no fight in them. Now the sample size was only 3 or 4 that I actually had, but after claiming a couple, I started watching everybody's that were by him and claimers. What I saw was the same thing. The good ones were warriors and the claimers were anything but warriors.

Some of these situations could very well have been caused by the bleeding that had undoubtedly started early in their careers. Bleeding through lasix or even without lasix is no fun for a horse. It makes them feel terrible . Kind of like the flu is how it was explained to me by highly respected veterinarians. The horse will experience this feeling instantly as thy bleed so this is during the race.
Some horses it really affects mentally early on and they never really get over it. Others just get over it and fight on. Just like people and various personalities.
They also had bad knees but that is the Mr. Prospector and that wasn't that big a deal unless it was THAT that kept them from trying as hard as needed. I look more towards the bleeding because that was a constant while some of the Allan's Prospects did not have much or any knee problems at all, be it my horses or other trainers horses.
So instead of calling them chicken crap horses, my assumption was that these most likely were victims of early severe bleeding and it altered their efforts which made them underachievers. If they made the lead and had a real nice trip, they would run well, but again, any adversity whatsoever and they would pack it in. At least that was my experience and what I witnessed when I watched others that had underachieving Allan's Prospects. It was enough of a trait in the lesser Allan's Prospects that it became obvious to me and from that point on, unless they they were that rare atypical claimer by A.P., I did not consider claiming them.

Funny you ask about him because I do not think I ever told anybody that before. Well maybe a couple of jocks who rode for me like Larry Saumell or Joe Rocco who rode them and would report back with what I just said, but never any other trainers or owners other than my own. Why? Because what I just said is a knock on a really nice sire and it sounds like I blamed the horse instead of maybe myself for not getting more out of them. That and , after watching plenty of others have the same problems, I sure was not going to alert other trainers I was competing against that they should watch for that. I mean, plenty were my friends and some of them really good friends but I am competing everyday against the same guys and girls and if I have figured out something that makes me have knowledge about a horse or a situation I don't want to let everybody know it. I would end up a nice guy that has no edges. I always tried to be a nice guy and would do alot for some of them but when the flag went up it was me vs. them. Lastly, if I talked about this and my friend does not claim the horse and it goes on and does great for someone else, it's like talking your buddy off a winning triple ticket. That never ends well and is never forgotten.

When I saw another trainer that was in my race had this type of horse, I would discuss with Larry, Joe, or whoever that maybe we pin or look in the eye that sired horse if we had similar running styles. That was a tactical advantage I had to keep close. And what if I told my friend about this and then I go and pin his early speed in a race and they know why I did that? I might very well lose a friend over a claiming race. It was a lose lose situation for me to talk about that stuff. I never discussed tactics with other trainers. That way if indeed something like that happened, I could just blame the rider.

I guess all this sounds ruthless and harsh but it's competitive as hell and it's win or go home when you are a claiming trainer. I had my years when I won and had some years when I was way down. It's the nature of the business. It's a tough business. And you better have edges if you want to shine. Legal ones that is. ( The illegal stuff pisses me off and both they and I know who I am referring to ). That's how I played the game . Honest, fair, tough and constantly looking for edges like biases, little things like what we just talked about, riders fitting certain horses, etc. Everything possible to be just a little better than most. Because the difference between the best and the worst just isn't that much. Like in baseball where the best team wins 6 out of every 10 and the worst team loses 6 out of every 10. Doesn't seem like much but it is huge, right?
Another example, Belichick and Reid are friends but Reid isn't going to tell Belichick his right outside linebacker will never contain his jet sweep with his footwork right? Not that he would need to lol, but you get what I am saying I'm sure.

Q. if you were interested in claiming a horse in general would the sire be a 4th or 5th (or lower) reason on occasion that would make the claim appealing to you ?

A. Yes again. It would rarely be a deterrent ( but Allan's Prospect actually was after a while) but it could be 4th or 5th on a list of appealing reasons or not appealing reasons. South American bred horses that ran cheap were also difficult sometimes. I would claim one but only after I watched for some things I would not necessarily worry about with most others. Most of them are what I called rubber neck horses. They are weird , probably from how they were broke and taught, but I'm not sure and never looked into why because I just knew they were and that's all I really cared about. And at that point there was no fixing them. Not a chance and a total waste of time to try.
Only certain riders seemed to get the most out of those horses. Some riders flat out hated those types. They would get off the horse angry about that . So if I claimed one of those, which was rare but I did from time to time, I knew only certain riders would fit that type of horse and I knew who those riders were. Another edge that you don't announce to the world. But in THAT case , I might go to a really good friend that was maybe talking about a poor effort their (ARG) bred or something like that had just run and I might mention, "hey , maybe try ...... on the horse next time. I bet he would fit that horse." I would not tell them why, but would mention it if asked. J.K. Adams taught me that my first year of training. He was a middle of the program rider that was a really nice kid. Unfortunately, he went down in a spill and really got hurt badly. Wasn't sure he was going to make it for a while. It was a severe head injury. He tried to ride again after about two years but that quickly ended. Man he could fit certain horses that most could not. When I had that type of horse I chose him over anybody knowing full well he would get the best out of the horse. And he did.

Q. we're there a lot of allen's prospect's running on the maryland circuit back in those days ?


A. There were plenty but not as many as you might think. The higher priced horses were bought by trainers that were in NY or NJ or wherever. So they stayed there to run. They could ship in for a Md. Bred stake but the purses were not that great . However, they all showed up on Md. million day when almost all the races were 100k or more.

[JBEX]

wow ..can't wait to read the whole thing but busy right now..definitely get back to you

[JBEX]

Q. do you remember having horse's by him (via the claim).

A. Yes. I had several. Early on, if I was not sure on if I should maybe claim the horse or not, being sired by Allen's Prospect pushed me towards doing so. But what I found out after I claimed a few of them was that the cheaper version type horse, who I suppose under achieved compared to others sired by A.P. that flourished was that they had two things in common. They were bleeders, but not necessarily bad bleeders but indeed they needed extra attention in that department and incredibly, and I say that because the good ones were gritty and real fighters through the stretch, they were chicken, or unwilling to overcome any adversity. Didn't run through holes, pin them and they quit, just for lack of a better term, just had no fight in them. Now the sample size was only 3 or 4 that I actually had, but after claiming a couple, I started watching everybody's that were by him and claimers. What I saw was the same thing. The good ones were warriors and the claimers were anything but warriors.

Some of these situations could very well have been caused by the bleeding that had undoubtedly started early in their careers. Bleeding through lasix or even without lasix is no fun for a horse. It makes them feel terrible . Kind of like the flu is how it was explained to me by highly respected veterinarians. The horse will experience this feeling instantly as thy bleed so this is during the race.
Some horses it really affects mentally early on and they never really get over it. Others just get over it and fight on. Just like people and various personalities.
They also had bad knees but that is the Mr. Prospector and that wasn't that big a deal unless it was THAT that kept them from trying as hard as needed. I look more towards the bleeding because that was a constant while some of the Allan's Prospects did not have much or any knee problems at all, be it my horses or other trainers horses.
So instead of calling them chicken crap horses, my assumption was that these most likely were victims of early severe bleeding and it altered their efforts which made them underachievers. If they made the lead and had a real nice trip, they would run well, but again, any adversity whatsoever and they would pack it in. At least that was my experience and what I witnessed when I watched others that had underachieving Allan's Prospects. It was enough of a trait in the lesser Allan's Prospects that it became obvious to me and from that point on, unless they they were that rare atypical claimer by A.P., I did not consider claiming them.

Funny you ask about him because I do not think I ever told anybody that before. Well maybe a couple of jocks who rode for me like Larry Saumell or Joe Rocco who rode them and would report back with what I just said, but never any other trainers or owners other than my own. Why? Because what I just said is a knock on a really nice sire and it sounds like I blamed the horse instead of maybe myself for not getting more out of them. That and , after watching plenty of others have the same problems, I sure was not going to alert other trainers I was competing against that they should watch for that. I mean, plenty were my friends and some of them really good friends but I am competing everyday against the same guys and girls and if I have figured out something that makes me have knowledge about a horse or a situation I don't want to let everybody know it. I would end up a nice guy that has no edges. I always tried to be a nice guy and would do alot for some of them but when the flag went up it was me vs. them. Lastly, if I talked about this and my friend does not claim the horse and it goes on and does great for someone else, it's like talking your buddy off a winning triple ticket. That never ends well and is never forgotten.

When I saw another trainer that was in my race had this type of horse, I would discuss with Larry, Joe, or whoever that maybe we pin or look in the eye that sired horse if we had similar running styles. That was a tactical advantage I had to keep close. And what if I told my friend about this and then I go and pin his early speed in a race and they know why I did that? I might very well lose a friend over a claiming race. It was a lose lose situation for me to talk about that stuff. I never discussed tactics with other trainers. That way if indeed something like that happened, I could just blame the rider.

I guess all this sounds ruthless and harsh but it's competitive as hell and it's win or go home when you are a claiming trainer. I had my years when I won and had some years when I was way down. It's the nature of the business. It's a tough business. And you better have edges if you want to shine. Legal ones that is. ( The illegal stuff pisses me off and both they and I know who I am referring to ). That's how I played the game . Honest, fair, tough and constantly looking for edges like biases, little things like what we just talked about, riders fitting certain horses, etc. Everything possible to be just a little better than most. Because the difference between the best and the worst just isn't that much. Like in baseball where the best team wins 6 out of every 10 and the worst team loses 6 out of every 10. Doesn't seem like much but it is huge, right?
Another example, Belichick and Reid are friends but Reid isn't going to tell Belichick his right outside linebacker will never contain his jet sweep with his footwork right? Not that he would need to lol, but you get what I am saying I'm sure.

Q. if you were interested in claiming a horse in general would the sire be a 4th or 5th (or lower) reason on occasion that would make the claim appealing to you ?

A. Yes again. It would rarely be a deterrent ( but Allan's Prospect actually was after a while) but it could be 4th or 5th on a list of appealing reasons or not appealing reasons. South American bred horses that ran cheap were also difficult sometimes. I would claim one but only after I watched for some things I would not necessarily worry about with most others. Most of them are what I called rubber neck horses. They are weird , probably from how they were broke and taught, but I'm not sure and never looked into why because I just knew they were and that's all I really cared about. And at that point there was no fixing them. Not a chance and a total waste of time to try.
Only certain riders seemed to get the most out of those horses. Some riders flat out hated those types. They would get off the horse angry about that . So if I claimed one of those, which was rare but I did from time to time, I knew only certain riders would fit that type of horse and I knew who those riders were. Another edge that you don't announce to the world. But in THAT case , I might go to a really good friend that was maybe talking about a poor effort their (ARG) bred or something like that had just run and I might mention, "hey , maybe try ...... on the horse next time. I bet he would fit that horse." I would not tell them why, but would mention it if asked. J.K. Adams taught me that my first year of training. He was a middle of the program rider that was a really nice kid. Unfortunately, he went down in a spill and really got hurt badly. Wasn't sure he was going to make it for a while. It was a severe head injury. He tried to ride again after about two years but that quickly ended. Man he could fit certain horses that most could not. When I had that type of horse I chose him over anybody knowing full well he would get the best out of the horse. And he did.

Q. we're there a lot of allen's prospect's running on the maryland circuit back in those days ?


A. There were plenty but not as many as you might think. The higher priced horses were bought by trainers that were in NY or NJ or wherever. So they stayed there to run. They could ship in for a Md. Bred stake but the purses were not that great . However, they all showed up on Md. million day when almost all the races were 100k or more.

what a great read.. I love how you actually observed that the better bred ones tended to be runners and handle adversity but the claiming variety not so much.. also the fact they were bleeders an important consideration.. he was a modest priced stallion if I remember correctly.. guess he'd get everything from occasional big time mares (race record and production) and more modest ones.. can understand not sharing those observations with your competitors even if some of them were your friends..can definitely see how it could be a competitive advantage to know those things if you were running against one of his progeny.. guess some other claiming trainers had certain sire preferences also..understand they're probably not frontline reasons to make a claim or not


so all this being said were there any sires who you thought were a positive as claiming horses? I should say I also understand that just because a horse stands in maryland doesn't necessarily mean he'll have an abundance of his progeny running in-state ..that's fair to say ?

[str]

what a great read.. I love how you actually observed that the better bred ones tended to be runners and handle adversity but the claiming variety not so much.. also the fact they were bleeders an important consideration.. he was a modest priced stallion if I remember correctly.. guess he'd get everything from occasional big time mares (race record and production) and more modest ones.. can understand not sharing those observations with your competitors even if some of them were your friends..can definitely see how it could be a competitive advantage to know those things if you were running against one of his progeny.. guess some other claiming trainers had certain sire preferences also..understand they're probably not frontline reasons to make a claim or not


so all this being said were there any sires who you thought were a positive as claiming horses? I should say I also understand that just because a horse stands in maryland doesn't necessarily mean he'll have an abundance of his progeny running in-state ..that's fair to say ?

Q. so all this being said were there any sires who you thought were a positive as claiming horses?

A. Sure,there were plenty of them. I think that the main thing was to know what traits the sire passed on in the way of soundness or a lack thereof. Not all, but plenty of sires consistently threw horses with similar problems. So if I saw a horse that I had not memorized from seeing multiple times in the past, I would check my programs that had every horses leg chart hand written on them. I kept these records from about a year earlier and could go back and see what I wrote each race to get a good feel of what problems I saw or didn't see. Then, I had a library of replays and could watch them. All this was well before video replay being offered at tracks. I had a betamax recorder and set it for the home team sports network to record the previous days races that came on at around 4AM each day. Between the replays and the old programs I had a ton of info. When they came out with video replay being offered, that was an edge I lost as many started using it. But for several years I knew of no other trainer that was doing that in Md. and I did not broadcast it that I was.
Marking programs meant being there for all 9 or 10 races everyday. It was a huge commitment that became more and more difficult as I got older and started raising a family. It was a demanding job to say the least. Train from 5:30 am until 10am. Watch for the grader around 10:30 to 11AM for a track depth, run home and change , grab lunch and be at the paddock to mark legs at 12:10PM for a 12:30 post time and stay until after the last race to see if the grader came out after the last. A lot of that was predicated on impending weather, especially in the fall and winter and typically if they were grading after the last , they were trying to start before it was dark out so you could spot them watching the last race far off on the backside at the 1/2 mile pole with the engines running( 2 graders). Binoculars were necessary to see that but I always had myine with me to watch races and horses warming up and pulling up anyway.
Wow. I get tired now just thinking about it. Lol.

Q. I should say I also understand that just because a horse stands in maryland doesn't necessarily mean he'll have an abundance of his progeny running in-state ..that's fair to say ?

A. the cheaper stallions had lots of horses that stayed in Md. or nearby states but yes, the more prominent sires had horses that were out of state running for bigger purses typically.

[JBEX]

Q. so all this being said were there any sires who you thought were a positive as claiming horses?


A. Sure,there were plenty of them. I think that the main thing was to know what traits the sire passed on in the way of soundness or a lack thereof. Not all, but plenty of sires consistently threw horses with similar problems. So if I saw a horse that I had not memorized from seeing multiple times in the past, I would check my programs that had every horses leg chart hand written on them. I kept these records from about a year earlier and could go back and see what I wrote each race to get a good feel of what problems I saw or didn't see. Then, I had a library of replays and could watch them. All this was well before video replay being offered at tracks. I had a betamax recorder and set it for the home team sports network to record the previous days races that came on at around 4AM each day. Between the replays and the old programs I had a ton of info. When they came out with video replay being offered, that was an edge I lost as many started using it. But for several years I knew of no other trainer that was doing that in Md. and I did not broadcast it that I was.
Marking programs meant being there for all 9 or 10 races everyday. It was a huge commitment that became more and more difficult as I got older and started raising a family. It was a demanding job to say the least. Train from 5:30 am until 10am. Watch for the grader around 10:30 to 11AM for a track depth, run home and change , grab lunch and be at the paddock to mark legs at 12:10PM for a 12:30 post time and stay until after the last race to see if the grader came out after the last. A lot of that was predicated on impending weather, especially in the fall and winter and typically if they were grading after the last , they were trying to start before it was dark out so you could spot them watching the last race far off on the backside at the 1/2 mile pole with the engines running( 2 graders). Binoculars were necessary to see that but I always had myine with me to watch races and horses warming up and pulling up anyway.
Wow. I get tired now just thinking about it. Lol.

Q. I should say I also understand that just because a horse stands in maryland doesn't necessarily mean he'll have an abundance of his progeny running in-state ..that's fair to say ?

A. the cheaper stallions had lots of horses that stayed in Md. or nearby states but yes, the more prominent sires had horses that were out of state running for bigger purses typically.

do you think your clients realized that you put in this much work or they just liked the bottom line results
.. in other words did they feel you went above and beyond what many others on the circuit did to achieve success ??.. on a separate note, besides his sons, yourself and rudy were there any others who worked under dutrow sr who went out on their own to train?

[str]

do you think your clients realized that you put in this much work or they just liked the bottom line results
.. in other words did they feel you went above and beyond what many others on the circuit did to achieve success ??.. on a separate note, besides his sons, yourself and rudy were there any others who worked under dutrow sr who went out on their own to train?

Q. do you think your clients realized that you put in this much work or they just liked the bottom line results
.. in other words did they feel you went above and beyond what many others on the circuit did to achieve success ??

A. Most of them did. A few , mainly breeders of homebreds that did not claim, didn't care. It did not affect them that much but the claiming people knew I did and they appreciated it.

Q. on a separate note, besides his sons, yourself and rudy were there any others who worked under dutrow sr who went out on their own to train?

A. It's a fairly nice training tree.
I hate to make a list because I will forget several but here goes nothing.

Over 1,000 wins besides Tony, Rick, Rudy...

Ron Alfano
Mark Reid
Mike Pino
str

At least 200 wins

Larry Horning
Dove Houghton
Michelle Nevin
Andrew Carter
Tom Caviness

A total of at least 12,000 wins from the names listed.

[JBEX]

Q. do you think your clients realized that you put in this much work or they just liked the bottom line results
.. in other words did they feel you went above and beyond what many others on the circuit did to achieve success ??

A. Most of them did. A few , mainly breeders of homebreds that did not claim, didn't care. It did not affect them that much but the claiming people knew I did and they appreciated it.

Q. on a separate note, besides his sons, yourself and rudy were there any others who worked under dutrow sr who went out on their own to train?

A. It's a fairly nice training tree.
I hate to make a list because I will forget several but here goes nothing.

Over 1,000 wins besides Tony, Rick, Rudy...

Ron Alfano
Mark Reid
Mike Pino
str

At least 200 wins

Larry Horning
Dove Houghton
Michelle Nevin
Andrew Carter
Tom Caviness

A total of at least 12,000 wins from the names listed.

heard of the all the guys above you and if I remember correctly you said reid has been involved in other areas of the business (pinhooking?).. alfano is a name i haven't seen in a while and pino i believe is still active ..of the bottom ones nevin and houghton are familiar names to me.. 12,000 + wins.. obviously passed on a lot of knowledge to you guys

[str]

heard of the all the guys above you and if I remember correctly you said reid has been involved in other areas of the business (pinhooking?).. alfano is a name i haven't seen in a while and pino i believe is still active ..of the bottom ones nevin and houghton are familiar names to me.. 12,000 + wins.. obviously passed on a lot of knowledge to you guys

Ronnie retired last year. He was at Delaware Park for the previous decade or so. Great guy.
Mark is at Laurel these days I think. Need to go see him if he is. Another great guy.
Mike travels around. Not sure where he is. He went to work after I left so never knew him that well.
Larry no longer trains. Injuries from the ill fated flight from Saratoga that killed trainer Harrison Johnson many years ago among other things have slowed him down some. Yet another really good guy.
Dove and Michelle are still active. They came after me as well.
The other two are not to my knowledge.

If you wanted to learn how to work your ass off and win races legally, that barn was one of the best in the country to do it. Those win totals were no accident. Man, so many memories.
Thanks JBEX.

[JBEX]

another question.. someone who apprentices under a claiming trainer vs another who learns the ropes with a trainer who has mostly allowance or stakes horses.. do you think the one who came up under the claiming trainer would be better suited to train higher end horses vs the person who came up with the better stock trainer be suited to start training claiming horses? I'm guessing the former and that the one who has worked under a claiming trainer will most likely get his start on his own with claimers.. to me it would seem to be a better education learning under the claiming trainer

[str]

another question.. someone who apprentices under a claiming trainer vs another who learns the ropes with a trainer who has mostly allowance or stakes horses.. do you think the one who came up under the claiming trainer would be better suited to train higher end horses vs the person who came up with the better stock trainer be suited to start training claiming horses? I'm guessing the former and that the one who has worked under a claiming trainer will most likely get his start on his own with claimers.. to me it would seem to be a better education learning under the claiming trainer

In a perfect world where all that matters was horses and the single goal in life was to become the best horse trainer you could be, I would recommend a person work for a high end claiming outfit 1st and after they grew to become a foreman or asst. trainer, leave and become an asst. trainer for a high end stakes quality outfit. They would learn from the best of the best in two completely different environments.
That is a commitment that would have to include going as far away as across the country or multiple states. That's a huge commitment.

As for your question, I would think the transition from working for a claiming trainer and training stake horses would indeed be easier than the other way around. I have seen that happen a lot. The other way, not very often.

[JBEX]

In a perfect world where all that matters was horses and the single goal in life was to become the best horse trainer you could be, I would recommend a person work for a high end claiming outfit 1st and after they grew to become a foreman or asst. trainer, leave and become an asst. trainer for a high end stakes quality outfit. They would learn from the best of the best in two completely different environments.
That is a commitment that would have to include going as far away as across the country or multiple states. That's a huge commitment.

As for your question, I would think the transition from working for a claiming trainer and training stake horses would indeed be easier than the other way around. I have seen that happen a lot. The other way, not very often.

from a novice's (me) perspective that would seem to be a good path to follow..seems you would learn more fundamentals with that starting point and then maybe polish off your skill set with the higher end horses.. easier said than done i'm sure but as you said "in the perfect world".. assuming you have the talent and work ethic this would be a great education.. thanks str

[JBEX]

hey str

if you are going to be looking at the pegasus world cup let me know.. had a specific question regarding the race audible chose off the long layoff..also of course your like to know your take on the race

[rickyyeungyeung]

we always heard some big winners who made huge money on horse racing bettting on the news .But i more interest wherther there is full time middle level gamblers who can make a living on that? do u know ?

[str]

hey str

if you are going to be looking at the pegasus world cup let me know.. had a specific question regarding the race audible chose off the long layoff..also of course your like to know your take on the race

I am hopeful I have time on Saturday. Cant commit for sure but would like to . Will let you know.

[str]

we always heard some big winners who made huge money on horse racing bettting on the news .But i more interest wherther there is full time middle level gamblers who can make a living on that? do u know ?

I have spoken at length about this several times in this thread. You can use keywords to help find right ups to read a more comprehensive detailed explanation if you like but the bottom line on this career is that the amount of hours, days and complete dedication to doing this is IMO not worth it. It all sounds good but if you make 50-60K a year betting which will require about a 60k bankroll by the time you add up the hours you could have probably made just as much or more working somewhere that gives you weekends and holidays off with a chance to move up the ranks and make more money.
It's a lonely existence and having a marriage or kids or even a steady girlfriend is darn near out of the question. It's simply too demanding time wise. And if you do steal time and don't do this as well as possible, your results will suffer.
My suggestion would be do NOT do it unless you are really committed and you will need to be pretty darn good at math, especially probability and statistics.
Hope that helps.

[JBEX]

I am hopeful I have time on Saturday. Cant commit for sure but would like to . Will let you know.

ok str.. hope you are able to look

[str]

hey str

if you are going to be looking at the pegasus world cup let me know.. had a specific question regarding the race audible chose off the long layoff..also of course your like to know your take on the race

I found the PP's for the race. Let me know what you wanted to ask

[JBEX]

I found the PP's for the race. Let me know what you wanted to ask

hey str.. glad you were able to get pp's for the race..the question i have is regarding the race he chose for him off the layoff.. guessing he was pointing towards this race when he ran him at 7f's in a listed stakes.. do you think considering everything that a 7f race off the layoff will give the horse a better foundation than a 6f or a 1 mile race would ? think you've discussed similar things before where at 7f
you need to have a little more speed to stay close vs a route which might get him a little sharper.. maybe with a good gallop out at the end (don't know if he did) you get some fitness into the horse that will really benefit him a couple of races into the cycle when he goes a 1 1/8 th...just seems to me it's a good starting point for a horse with his race record being asked to do what he has to do today.. what do you think?

[str]

hey str.. glad you were able to get pp's for the race..the question i have is regarding the race he chose for him off the layoff.. guessing he was pointing towards this race when he ran him at 7f's in a listed stakes.. do you think considering everything that a 7f race off the layoff will give the horse a better foundation than a 6f or a 1 mile race would ? think you've discussed similar things before where at 7f
you need to have a little more speed to stay close vs a route which might get him a little sharper.. maybe with a good gallop out at the end (don't know if he did) you get some fitness into the horse that will really benefit him a couple of races into the cycle when he goes a 1 1/8 th...just seems to me it's a good starting point for a horse with his race record being asked to do what he has to do today.. what do you think?

Q. guessing he was pointing towards this race when he ran him at 7f's in a listed stakes..

A. Absolutely

Q. do you think considering everything that a 7f race off the layoff will give the horse a better foundation than a 6f or a 1 mile race would ? think you've discussed similar things before where at 7f
you need to have a little more speed to stay close vs a route which might get him a little sharper..

A. In my mind, the 7/8ths is the perfect distance. 6F does not quite give him enough bottom and the speed might be a bit sharp. A mile and the speed won't be there but the stamina it will help. My guess is the instructions was gallop out a flat mile.
Honestly, I think it is ideal.

Q. just seems to me it's a good starting point for a horse with his race record being asked to do what he has to do today.. what do you think?

A. I could not agree more. Just the perfect prep in my mind.

That said, I played against him in the contest. Lol. I had to go with Edgar on the two. Trying to light up the tote board. I actually think he has a chance if he can get back to his races from last year.m A lot has to set up right and the two big boys need to falter but stranger things have happened.

[Easy-Rider 66]

Hey STR: Noticed you took the #2 for the Pegasus contest in the big race. I assume you capped the race?

[mrginandtonic]

Hey STR: Noticed you took the #2 for the Pegasus contest in the big race. I assume you capped the race?

The 2- Something Awesome is also DRF expert, Matt Bernier's pick.

[Easy-Rider 66]

The 2- Something Awesome is also DRF expert, Matt Bernier's pick.

OK. Interested to see why STR is taking a shot with him?

[str]

OK. Interested to see why STR is taking a shot with him?

1. No value if you guess right on either retiring favorite.

2. Inside posts breaking that close to the 1st turn can be anywhere between a real to a HUGE advantage. Especially if someone in the middle breaks outward while loose reigning and wipes out 1/2 the field, which can happen when they need to gun to the 1st turn.

3. He ran a great race in the CT Classic and honestly, if he could repeat that, he would have a decent chance at a large price.

4. Loves the slop

5. Edgar... A very good friend.

6. Can't think many others picked him so I could win the contest if he wins.

7. Only had a form for this race . Thought I would make the most out of it and swing for the fences. Only had the program for the rest of the card. Went a bit more conservative.

8. Drinking early. Lol. Just kidding.

Good luck Easy and Mr. G and T !!!

[JBEX]

Q. guessing he was pointing towards this race when he ran him at 7f's in a listed stakes..

A. Absolutely

Q. do you think considering everything that a 7f race off the layoff will give the horse a better foundation than a 6f or a 1 mile race would ? think you've discussed similar things before where at 7f
you need to have a little more speed to stay close vs a route which might get him a little sharper..

A. In my mind, the 7/8ths is the perfect distance. 6F does not quite give him enough bottom and the speed might be a bit sharp. A mile and the speed won't be there but the stamina it will help. My guess is the instructions was gallop out a flat mile.
Honestly, I think it is ideal.

Q. just seems to me it's a good starting point for a horse with his race record being asked to do what he has to do today.. what do you think?

A. I could not agree more. Just the perfect prep in my mind.

That said, I played against him in the contest. Lol. I had to go with Edgar on the two. Trying to light up the tote board. I actually think he has a chance if he can get back to his races from last year.m A lot has to set up right and the two big boys need to falter but stranger things have happened.

ok str.. glad that you agree.. I also heard and read (pp's) couple of other positive things..

they said on the day of audible's last race that they sealed the track after the downpour whereas today it was sealed beforehand.. guess that can make a difference as to whether the horse takes to it or not

matt carrothers said the rail was golden that day and he had a wide trip


according to the brisnet figures the pace was about 8 lengths slow that day..not that he was super far back but still not in his favor


all in all, including his big race off the layoff at the 7f, like him in this spot



good luck in the contest.. hitting this race would certainly help your cause

[str]

1. No value if you guess right on either retiring favorite.

2. Inside posts breaking that close to the 1st turn can be anywhere between a real to a HUGE advantage. Especially if someone in the middle breaks outward while loose reigning and wipes out 1/2 the field, which can happen when they need to gun to the 1st turn.

3. He ran a great race in the CT Classic and honestly, if he could repeat that, he would have a decent chance at a large price.

4. Loves the slop

5. Edgar... A very good friend.

6. Can't think many others picked him so I could win the contest if he wins.

7. Only had a form for this race . Thought I would make the most out of it and swing for the fences. Only had the program for the rest of the card. Went a bit more conservative.

8. Drinking early. Lol. Just kidding.

Good luck Easy and Mr. G and T !!!

Need to add one more.

The two retiring champions were pointed all year for their last races. Both won. Now, they try just one more. But by no means were they ever pointed for this race, it's just a farewell type race they would never be running in unless it was a huge purse like it is.

So I will gladly bet against both knowing that they should be about 80-85% of what they were in there last races. That might not be the case with these but more often than not, it definitely is. So I will play the %'s and bet against the monsters.
Hope that makes sense.

[Easy-Rider 66]

Tailing your picks STR in a HT game. R5-12. Except R11. Will hit you back if I score. Thx for the picks. Do not feel like capping GP today.

[str]

Tailing your picks STR in a HT game. R5-12. Except R11. Will hit you back if I score. Thx for the picks. Do not feel like capping GP today.

Hope we do ok.

Only had the program though. No form.

5th race finished 2nd. Oh well.

[Easy-Rider 66]

Hope we do ok.

Only had the program though. No form.

5th race finished 2nd. Oh well.

You get $2 w/p. So not a bad start.

[str]

You get $2 w/p. So not a bad start.

Good to know. I will be rooting for you, I mean me, I mean us, Lol.

[Easy-Rider 66]

Good to know. I will be rooting for you, I mean me, I mean us, Lol.

OK Thx.