5 Dimes takes back $32K in casino winnings

[clowncar]

John, if a bricks-n-mortar US licensed casino puts a machine on the floor programmed to that table, with a printed payout card matching that, and a customer hits a jackpot, explain exactly how the house has a leg to stand on ?

They don't.


The difference is that the Vegas casino catches this problem in its infancy.

And in the cases of severe errors they are caught on the first or second tax form sized result. In this case the bottom of the paytable was the problem so it might take longer than normal to be discovered.

There are other safeguards to casino errors on machines here. For instance, if a game had a mistake like this in a brick and mortar casino, the game would be locked up by professionals because if they don't lock it up, someone else will. That alone becomes something the casino will become interested in. And many other safeguards.

Another thing to consider is that you can cash tickets as you go in las vegas. You are guaranteed to get out a certain percentage before they shut the game down.

[cyberinvestor]

John, if a bricks-n-mortar US licensed casino puts a machine on the floor programmed to that table, with a printed payout card matching that, and a little old blue-haired gramma type hits a jackpot after a handful of spins by blind luck and picking the machine for its pretty flashing lights (and not by sharking/seeking out the incorrect paytable) explain exactly how the house has a leg to stand on ?

It never happens because there is so much auditing, testing, and verification on games in any US brick and mortar casino. Before a game hits the floor it is tested in house by the maker, third party audited, gaming commission audit and review, casino itself reviews and tests and then it hits the floor. There is no way a +390% or any major error for that matter would make it through all those levels.

Obviously this does not exist offshore but creates a quandary like the situation we are discussing here. So then a "common sense" policy has to be enacted.

[C.S.]

Ok so I am a little slow here but here's what I don't get. In the past books that confiscated winnings from correlated parlays caught a ton of heat round these parts.
Often the point was argued that because the sportsbook said no CO-Related Parlays but their software still allowed them that the company was free rolling a player. But hey... a rule is a rule right?

Well if the payout chart was an error as stated (which I am sure it was) why then was it inconceivable the a sportsbook would allow co-related parlays while not really wanting to take them and therefore the ability to place these wagers was an error and therefore the bets should not be honored.

Not saying I agree with not paying the co-related just saying it seems sorta the same situation to me.

[chachi]

Makes sense clowncar/cyber ...

So basically anyone who spots & hammers it would get paid out in full until the machine was decommissioned, except if Tony was running the floor.

[clowncar]

Makes sense clowncar/cyber ...

So basically anyone who spots & hammers it would get paid out in full until the machine was decommissioned, except if Tony was running the floor.

Yes. Atleast in all the cases that I know of.

Let me also just say that I have never heard of a 390% VP error in Las Vegas, so there is not much precedence for an error of this size. If there was such an error it was likely all in the top end of the paytable and was caught after one tax form issuance.

And of course, I don't pretend to know every case or even 1% of all cases.

[chachi]

Of course, am not under any sort of deluded thinking that this happens often/ever in a professionally run casino operation ...

[pokerplayer22]

You do get paid on errors but there is a point where the liability should end on grotesque errors. I mean no one should really believe the casino should go out of business because of one terrible error on a paytable. But certainly everyone should agree that the book should take some financial responsibility for said errors. I think most reasonable people would agree to those three points. So then the debate comes down to how much liability should the book be willing to absorb and that is likely where most of us would disagree.

Agree 100%...In this case, it seems like the casino (Tony) is not willing to take any hit for his mistakes and that to me is just wrong.

[WVU]

Yes. Atleast in all the cases that I know of.

Let me also just say that I have never heard of a 390% VP error in Las Vegas, so there is not much precedence for an error of this size. If there was such an error it was likely all in the top end of the paytable and was caught after one tax form issuance.

And of course, I don't pretend to know every case or even 1% of all cases.

You might be surprised.

[clowncar]

You might be surprised.

I wouldn't be.

[clowncar]

There are other differences between las vegas and online as well. For instance, take the 12% game that Zabula was playing. A professional in Las Vegas would most assuredly sit down and play the game. The same professional looking at the same game on an offshore online site would likely decline playing it either because they assume the game is rigged or because they assume they won't get paid upon winning.

[WVU]

There are other differences between las vegas and online as well. For instance, take the 12% game that Zabula was playing. A professional in Las Vegas would most assuredly sit down and play the game. The same professional looking at the same game on an offshore online site would likely decline playing it either because they assume the game is rigged or because they assume they won't get paid upon winning.

most professionals now have crossed over to online. I can assure you they do not think the majority of games are rigged. Getting paid is another story altogether, but the well connected ones always do.

[thechaoz]

This is just insane....always been weary of the god attitude and never deposited there.. Glad I didn't

[clowncar]

most professionals now have crossed over to online. I can assure you they do not think the majority of games are rigged. Getting paid is another story altogether, but the well connected ones always do.

In the zab case it wasnt just a 12% game , it was a 12% game that was there for weeks and had a simplistic strategy that basically ensured any duration of play regardless of skill level would have generated a loss for the casino. I would have assumed ( wrongly perhaps ) that it was rigged.

[KGambler]

In the zab case it wasnt just a 12% game , it was a 12% game that was there for weeks and had a simplistic strategy that basically ensured any duration of play regardless of skill level would have generated a loss for the casino. I would have assumed ( wrongly perhaps ) that it was rigged.

The game was there at least since August of 2009. That is when I found the game. I know the date because finding the game led me to PM a couple of people over at 2+2, to ask them what they thought about a VP game with a supposed player edge of 12.7%. They both told me to stay away, so I didn't play the game all that much. But that game was probably available for years, and definitely available since August 2009.

[clowncar]

How could 5dimes afford to leave a game in with a 12% edge for years? They had to lose every single week on the game. Didn't that raise red flags?

[KGambler]

I think they knew there was a player edge on the game, if the player played optimally, but they weren't aware of how big the edge was. The game had an insane variance and a max bet per spin of 25 cents. I really don't think many people knew about the game or felt comfortable playing it. It sounds like some of the people playing the game were using the wrong strategy. There were probably some weeks where no one played the game at all. One of the reasons I didn't play the game much was what you are saying though... how could the game exist for so long with that payout table???

[bettilimbroke999]

Thats why I only play at A rated books not those D rated shit books like 5Dimes

[Jim Morrison]

It never happens because there is so much auditing, testing, and verification on games in any US brick and mortar casino. Before a game hits the floor it is tested in house by the maker, third party audited, gaming commission audit and review, casino itself reviews and tests and then it hits the floor. There is no way a +390% or any major error for that matter would make it through all those levels.

Obviously this does not exist offshore but creates a quandary like the situation we are discussing here. So then a "common sense" policy has to be enacted.

If a slot tech setting up a video poker game on the floor at a Vegas casino inputed the payout tables wrong, even to the extent of 390%, I guarantee Nevada Gaming would make the casino pay. There is no auditing, testing, verification, whatever else between the time the slot tech opens up a game, works on paytables, and closes the game again.

Personally I have never heard of a 390% play but I know of a lot of massive +EV plays, many on glitches or bad programming, that happen in Vegas. I've done my part in taking as much money as I can when these arise. I've never had a casino try and pull the bullshit that Tony does. Thankfully if a casino did try and not pay they'd be dealing with Gaming and not SBR.

[andywend]

Tackleberry is NOT entitled to his winnings.

This is the same as posting +14 on a team that is really a 14 point favorite.

Tackleberry himself says the pay table offered a 390% player return so there was obviously human error in setting the paytable just like there is human error when posting a 14 point favorite as a 14 point dog.

For the record, Tony cut all my limits down by 80% and took away my horse betting so I am no fan of him or the site itself. I just assume this whole thing costs 5Dimes a ton of business but with that being said, Tackleberry does NOT DESERVE TO BE PAID HIS WINNINGS.

If a slot tech setting up a video poker game on the floor at a Vegas casino inputed the payout tables wrong, even to the extent of 390%, I guarantee Nevada Gaming would make the casino pay

Jim is right about this but if you somehow got +14 on a team that should be a 14 point favorite, the ticket would stand in Las Vegas as well.

The rules for internet betting are different than Vegas rules and they have to be assuming you enjoy betting all the different options 5 Dimes has.

[Gardfather]

I have to say all of these reversed winnings are disturbing. A real casino would cut off the game and pay the winnings. Why is this different? It is the casino's fault for offering a game with those type of payouts. It would be moronic for a player not to continue playing if they are winning. It's essentially free-rolling by the casino.

It is the casino's fault for not monitoring their games.

I don't gamble in online casinos but I have to say that I'm considering moving my action back to Greek for sports.

[excel]

unreal

[bettilimbroke999]

Are any of 5Dimes casino games -EV, how the **** did I lose so much money in there , I must've been playing the games where the house edge was 390% by mistake, but for some reason Tony hasnt bothered to call me up and apologize for the mistake and refund my losses yet

[LiarGame]

Glad I'm not with 5dimes.

[beeps220]

For U.S players, betjamaica and the Greek stand alone......

Aren't 5 Dimes, The Greek, and Bet Jam all owned by the same company?

[chachi]

No ... Greek/BetJam are

[cjwatsonfan32]

5dimes is quickly falling from the grace of sbr forum contributors! A year too late...

[Delicious]

Goodbye 5dimes, your joke customer service and complete disregard for honest players puts you on my no play list. How many people has this book stiffed that do not come to sbr? Sbr has lost credibility, but are highly questionable to begin with, considering the amount of money they take from books they claim to police. What percent does sbr get from losing betters who join through this site? This industry as a whole could use some decency, integrity and common sense. SBR part of the problem? They are at the very least complicit in theft. Accepting add dollars from these swine is no different than buying stolen property from thieves

[bettorjon]

good thing i havent joined 5D.

does it mean that their sportsbook sucks too or should it be set aside with all these casino controversies?

[chachi]

sportsbook should be fine, caveated with always needing to remember that in the event of anything coming up as a point of argument, God will be on the opposite side of the table arguing against you

[TheMoneyShot]

I have been a supporter in the past on here of 5dimes. They have paid me quickly and without drama, and that's 95% of being a good sportsbook. This is where you're wrong Moneyshot, and this is why I currently don't support them: I am not familiar with the Zabula case, but it sounds like he was playing the same game I was that paid back a theoretical 112%. Well, I lost over 7k on that game and was informed later I would be credited back my losses because the game had an incorrect payout schedule. When I never received the credit I inquired about it, and they said my gaming history was that I was a very good player and I have won on the site, therefore I am not eligible for the credit. I played that game off and on for 3 months, at the same payout schedule. Have you ever heard of a bad line being up for 3 whole months (could have been more, that's just how long I played it)? Never thought I was taking a shot, just thought it was another +ev game at 5dimes with such a high variance they were counting on you busting. This is not the same thing as a bad line. To put it simply, even if 5dimes pays the total 32k in Tackleberry's situation, they will still make money by retroactively voiding all the action except for losing action like mine. It's better than loaded dice or a mechanic dealer at blackjack.

Your situation was probably different than his situation. Point being. OP had a motive to me. He knew he was going to hit that game hard. He knew he had no chance of losing. Hearing stories like this make me laugh. He took a chance "hoping" they wouldn't find out... oh wait mysteriously I have 32k+ (or whatever he had) in my account within 24 hours. I really don't know how it got there? It's a mystery... but hey.. PAY ME ANYWAYS!! CUZ IT'S CRAZY.... I WAS RED HOT AND I COULDN'T LOSE!!!

As for your situation with 5Dimes... file a report to SBR and tell them what they said if your story is valid? I don't play computer generated casino games... no matter if it's a 100%-110% winning rate/payout etc... IT'S BULLSH#$. You wanna know why it's BULLSH@#? Because no matter what a casino promises you... they flip a button and mysteriously... your winning percentage went from 105% to 20%. You believe what they advertise?? I sure as hell don't. You're going against a damn software!!! It's not even a damn person! Online casino games are absurd.

[Jim Morrison]

He knew he had no chance of losing. Hearing stories like this make me laugh.

Online casinos and books operating out of shady places like Costa Rica know they have no chance of losing at all. So much so that 5 Dimes felt they could offer positive games and brag about that knowing that if/when they ever got hit hard they'd just refuse to pay. Hearing stories like this make me laugh.

[Maniac]

good thing i havent joined 5D.

does it mean that their sportsbook sucks too or should it be set aside with all these casino controversies?

I have yet to see a single issue on the forums regarding the sportsbook side of things so you should be good there.

All the issues I have seen regarding the casino, mistakes have been made on both sides with some players breaking rules to take advantage of the mistakes made by 5Dimes in their casino payouts.

In the "zabula" case the paytable was set to 112% I believe, and it certainly looks to me that he broke rules using a bot to play, so I have to side with 5Dimes on that case...though not sure if the 112% payout was there by choice as a bonus or if it was another mistake, but have to wonder how many people still lost despite the payout being high and not knowing any different.

This brings us on to "clark" who I believe is one of those that did lose on the same game (or similar game with messed up paytable!) and eventually it was agreed that he would be paid the 7k at the expense of losing his account due to being a "pro" player. This one made me uneasy as it looks like a case of double standards whereby people who won on that game weren't paid out, while the book kept the money off of those that lost on it if they didnt like their business - regardless of whether a player is a pro or a fish the same rules should apply to all in a case like this, not just picking and choosing "which players to take care of". I have no problem with Tony deciding to payout and then close the account of those he considers to be pro as it is his business and that is his choice to make - it is the issue with bending the rules to suit them that I disagree with.

This case is a tricky one as it was an obvious mistake by 5Dimes to have the payout set to 390% so I can kinda see where the "bad line" rule could be applied...the problem with it is that the paytable on the site matched this mistake, which is something that should have been checked and double checked before the game ever went live. If the paytable was set correctly to the payout it was supposed to be, but the machine was programmed incorrectly to payout 390% then the bad line rule would easily be able to be enforced (though there is the issue with proving the payout was that high without the paytable saying so!). At the same time though, the player was in the wrong as well as he obviously knew the mistake had been made and decided to take advantage of it. As has been mentioned, if this happened in Vegas and the payout matched the paytable then regardless of mistake then they would have to payout. In this case with both book and player in the wrong then I would have thought independant arbitration would be the way to go, but evidently that option was taken off the table by 5Dimes.

All in all, despite the sportsbook looking solid, and despite my never having any intention to use the casino (with whatever other flaws there may be!), I just dont think I can justify signing up with them at the current time (which I have been thinking about in recent weeks) purely for the double standards that has been taken in regards to one rule for the good clients and another for the supposed "pros".

I will keep an eye on them and see how they are looking when (if!) the football season comes around I think...

[ThisGuy]

If you're in the US you're insane not to use 5D as a SPORTSBOOK

[arnoldrothstein]

Honestly hiw the hell are these guys winning 32k etc in these casino is it realistic i wanna get in on this shit

[Gardfather]

Honestly hiw the hell are these guys winning 32k etc in these casino is it realistic i wanna get in on this shit

Have you read any of the thread? None of these people have been paid.