Problem with 5Dimes' Tony - robbed of $3600 in winnings

[recon1]

Doesn't 5dimes drop a file and cookie called iesnare on all customers computers? Would this alone not detect the problem right away? entering limited, banned or suspicious account IP addresses etc. Is fairly easy since the creation of the internet. When OP tried to open account on a persons device that has been limited, is it rocket science to attach a "call customer service" message before opening account?
Have a lot of family in CR and when i was in the country i asked a family member about 5dimes status within CR and he said he knew nothing negative. This person would know since he is in the particular government that deals with these type outfits.
OP, i here what your saying and hope it works out for you, but if your lying or being deceitful it will comeback on you. If 5dimes is free rolling customers it's just shameful and i just don't see an outfit this large having to do these things.

Good-luck!

[TheMoneyShot]

What cracks me up out of all major offshore books... all supervisors tend to speak nice and pleasant typically. I've spoken to at least 5 supervisors in my life time... at different books via phone or chat... and not one ever spoke aggressively.

I've spoken to Tony via chat (3 times)... he's the only aggressive supervisor. The guy just doesn't care.

[SABAlove]

Cloverfield-
To get you your answer, my buddy says he doesn't know exactly since his account is now locked too (blames me, of course), but he recalls winning about 10-12k before being limited, primarily on NCAAF and NFL. Played some poker there too. Cashed out in 1 lump sum after being limited. This would all be interesting perhaps, except for the fact that we're different people, and it was my own money and action that got freerolled. You are of course, free to draw whatever conclusions you want.

Thanks for the response. Hopefully since you came to SBR and publicly in the forum about this issue, whoever is handling your dispute will respond as well.

I am really curious if it's in the same range as your initial deposit.

We all have opinions on the situation. I just personally don't believe it at all. I hope there is an amicable outcome for all involved.



Yeah whenever you post something that involves common sense and logic that go against a player it always comes up.

"Oh hey someone is posting the book has a right to be concerned about this account/situation, they must work for the book!!!"

[Ted Sheckler]

Cloverfield-
To get you your answer, my buddy says he doesn't know exactly since his account is now locked too (blames me, of course), but he recalls winning about 10-12k before being limited, primarily on NCAAF and NFL. Played some poker there too. Cashed out in 1 lump sum after being limited. This would all be interesting perhaps, except for the fact that we're different people, and it was my own money and action that got freerolled. You are of course, free to draw whatever conclusions you want.

So did the guy cash out 12K via bitcoin in 1 lump sum? That's a pretty nice score!
Or
Did he cash out 4800 via bitcoin, which just so happened to be the same amount you deposited?

[SABAlove]

He said it was 1 lump sum. My deposit was exactly 20BTC. This worked out to some odd amt of $$ like $4880 or so.

Like I said, perhaps interesting, except for the fact that we're 2 different people.

So did the guy cash out 12K via bitcoin in 1 lump sum? That's a pretty nice score!
Or
Did he cash out 4800 via bitcoin, which just so happened to be the same amount you deposited?

[edawg]

Most supervisors are just top tier CS people at most shops. Which means they speak good English. When dealing with 5dimes Tony is the law as far as players are concerned.

[SABAlove]

He made this abundantly clear. I believe the phrase he used was "I'm God around here"

Most supervisors are just top tier CS people at most shops. Which means they speak good English. When dealing with 5dimes Tony is the law as far as players are concerned.

[Trident]

You were freerolled by the best in the business, the only thing your going to get out of this is aggravation. Better to write it off and move on.

[rpesi9955]

Sorry to hear this story man but good luck on getting your money

[shopp]

OP should be paid in full but I doubt that will happen given the book. How this is an a+ book or whatever is beyond me with those terms and conditions that get enforced in this way. So many better books out there for us customers that would not have done something like this heritage bookmaker to name a few.

It is sad to see the defense here of 5D. I can only assume they are employees or losers at the shop that have lost perspective.

[libra2jay]

You were freerolled by the best in the business, the only thing your going to get out of this is aggravation. Better to write it off and move on.

Absolutely correct.

Tony says: "gotcha!"

[Plaza23]

What cracks me up out of all major offshore books... all supervisors tend to speak nice and pleasant typically. I've spoken to at least 5 supervisors in my life time... at different books via phone or chat... and not one ever spoke aggressively.

I've spoken to Tony via chat (3 times)... he's the only aggressive supervisor. The guy just doesn't care.

Last December I was live betting the Indiana Butler game and I was able to bet both sides and lock in a win because there was a big swing in the game. Well 45 minutes after I had place the bet 5dimes cancelled one of the bets I had made. So that in fact I now was only holding the losing portion of my 2 bets. I got online and talked to Tony and told him he can't cancel bets 45 minutes afterwards depending on the outcome of the game. He told me didn't care and would cancel both my bets and then close my account. I had to basically beg to be kept on as a player there despite it being THEIR fault of not honoring the lines they put out and the bets made.

It happens all the time during in play live. They put out lines, the players jump on them, and then they say it was a "bad line" and cancel the bet. Drives me crazy. If the players are smarter than the line makers, then hire better line makers that put out accurate lines.

But bottom line if you put out a line, and then the player not only puts his wager in but confirms it with a password, then that is a DONE deal and you live and die with it.

I still don't understand why individual players have limits. Do they really believe they got fixers on that site betting? The only time I could ever think of putting a limit on someone is for small tennis tournaments where it is conceivable a pro tennis player could bet against himself and recoup more money from betting against himself in the early rounds especially if they have a small chance of winning the entire tourney.

But NFL point spreads? Really? A limit for those?

[dealer wins]

Im with the book on this one. OP your pulling our legs here!!

[Snowball]

you got to look at it from 5D point of view, it's a classic move that someone who
wanted to break the rules would do.
there is no ambiguity in their rules Shari posted.
i would be surprised if he pays you but you won't lose anyway, will get deposit back,
which is not so bad, right ?

[edawg]

Obviously 5dimes thinks the guy is bearding hence why they are willing to pay part of the bet (probably the same amount they had his friend limited at) It really falls into a grey area especially since it is under 5k on an NFL side.

[Grivas_Digeni]

Do rules have any influence on a book's rating?

If a book has a ridiculous rule and the only way to sign up is accepting it among 1000 other rules and conditions, does it mean it can never be A+rated?

[SBR Forum]

Obviously 5dimes thinks the guy is bearding hence why they are willing to pay part of the bet (probably the same amount they had his friend limited at) It really falls into a grey area especially since it is under 5k on an NFL side.

Hi edawg,

That is what 5Dimes did, paid the wager at the limit account one was given before cashing out. It is very reasonable to conclude from the available information provided by both parties (player and sportsbook) that account two was simply a beard for account one. Account two was created from the same device account one had used to wager. 'Beards' are capable of sending ID, so the player's insistence to establish has identity does not trump this. This is not an incidental sharing of IP addresses at a buddy's house or a situation an average Joe needs to fear. Account one was limited for wagering at the sportsbook, cashed out several thousand in bitcoin, and then a second account was created from that player's device to proceed to deposit a few thousand in bitcoin. 5Dimes' handling of this - to pay account two at the limit account one was just given - is more favorable to the player than players would find at any regulated sportsbook by any gambling commission in the world. This is really not disputable.

'You book the bet, you pay the bet' is intended to keep scam sites from inventing reasons not to pay players - but this player's winning bet was paid. There is a very clear and evident reason why this player's wager had its limit changed. If 5Dimes were free rolling or looking to enforce their rules to the max, the deposit would be refunded and no winnings paid. They could have also allowed the player to keep betting instead of immediately suspending the account after the first bet.

Applicable rules:
1. Use of multiple accounts to circumvent limits is prohibited.
2. Use of multiple account numbers or names in order to receive bonus promotions, referral awards, or exceed limits is forbidden and may result in the forfeiture of ALL funds received/won as a result of these actions.

What's also worth keeping in mind as it relates to industry standards and precedents is that if this were a dispute at a sportsbook licensed by say the UK Gambling Commission - which some of the biggest books in the world are - there would be no chance that any of the winnings would be paid to account two due to the obvious rule breach. As Optional, who does a fine job here mediating many cases, pointed out, a much heavier-handed outcome would be the case in this scenario at most sportsbooks.

5Dimes is a tightly run shop that is active in their risk management, this thread is an example of why circumventing limits is not a good idea.

[cloverfield]

Hi edawg,

That is what 5Dimes did, paid the wager at the limit account one was given before cashing out. It is very reasonable to conclude from the available information provided by both parties (player and sportsbook) that account two was simply a beard for account one.

[Grivas_Digeni]

Why is noone talking about what happens if this 5k bet loses. Will the book give back the amount it just took away from him after the bet won?

[BigOrange]

Why is noone talking about what happens if this 5k bet loses. Will the book give back the amount it just took away from him after the bet won?

Tony never would. He would keep letting him deposit until he started winning then he would freeroll him like he did here.

[Krheigle]

Which is what you should get when beard a book. Its even shadier that he "waited a week or two" to place his first bet.

[Grivas_Digeni]

Tony never would. He would keep letting him deposit until he started winning then he would freeroll him like he did here.

And there is no recourse for this, from regulators or SBR?

[BigOrange]

And there is no recourse for this, from regulators or SBR?

Tony is God LOL. Who can tell God what to do?

As long as there are only a few options available for American players and Tony continues to pay his sponsor fees, none of these sites are going to drop him below an A rating.

[trytrytry]

Get 20% When You Tell A Friend!
When you refer a friend to 5Dimes you may receive a free-play referral reward equal to 20% of your friends opening deposit.
Players referring multiple friends may be eligible for higher rewards.



5 dimes took a wager on an NFL side, a legitimate line at -110 lines.

5dimes has an open please refer your friends policy and even rewards for doing so under some situations. THEY want you to tell friends about 5dimes and get them in some way to sign up and post up.


an account was made, and money was sent , bet made was from a new customer, a different genetic person never before in the 5 dimes system, bet made from place computer ipad whatever not ever used for any wager in the 5 dimes system.


the deposit was correctly taken by 5 dimes
the bet was correctly confirmed by 5 dimes

the game played out 5 dimes having the normal bookie edge of -110

the game ended and new unique customer player won

5 dimes decided incorrectly to steal most all the winning from a post up player

======================================== ==

pretty much sums it up

[Grivas_Digeni]

Which is what you should get when beard a book. Its even shadier that he "waited a week or two" to place his first bet.

Not trying to defend the guy. Though if he posted exactly what his bet was and it became clear that he could get the same bet in another online book, give or take 5-10 cents, I would defend him. Because in this scenario Tony's rules which are basically fair, are clearly being used to scam a player who is not trying to hit a bad line but simply uses 5dimes for convenience over other online books where U.S. residents may not be welcome, or for lower vig over vegas books where he probably would have to pay hundreds more to win the same amount.

Again I am only stating this is plain wrong by 5dimes on two conditions One, it's abundantly clear that the player wasn't shooting an angle where simply placing a 5k bet on an NFL side that's widely available online or in vegas does not qualify as such. Two, there's no way he would get reimbursed if this bet lost. Unless SBR confirms the former or at least attempts to confirm the latter I will assume that there is more to the story than the book, the player and SBR care to share with the public and the 900 Tony agreed to pay was in fact some type of an out of court settlement

[Hareeba!]

Quite understandable that 5D suspects the OP was acting on behalf of the other account holder.
But the evidence giving rise to that was there from the time the OP's account was opened.
So why wasn't the betting limit applied to his account at that stage?
Or even at any time before the start of the game on which he bet?
Leaving it until after the game and the bet is won is a clear case of freerolling.

[capone1899]

Complete freaking freeroll by 5dimes. What POS's they are. They knew exactly what they were doing before the game concluded. Guarantee it

[Krheigle]

"hey i got limited so open an account on my IP at the same book"

come on people!!!!

[Grivas_Digeni]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Tony shouldn't be able to have it both ways. Attract weak players who lose a couple hundred each and be able to free roll a sharp player like that. If this is something SBR condones I'm not sure how reliable its ratings are anymore.

Would love to find out all the specifics but that's hardly likely. I'm light years away from being any kind of threat to 5dimes or any other book but it hurts knowing they continue to take my money without having to pay the winners. What's the point of even trying to beat the books then?

[Grivas_Digeni]

5Dimes is a tightly run shop that is active in their risk management, this thread is an example of why circumventing limits is not a good idea.

Can you post what the bet was exactly?

The reason this is relevant is that if Pinnacle or another book with 3k+ limits had a similar line... it's not really circumventing anything. Or does 5dimes consider itself a monopoly and treats its customers like one?

[Krheigle]

Someone help me with the definition of a sharp?

[recon1]

Someone help me with the definition of a sharp?

Basically someone who wins

[The Kraken]

Player put in a $4500 bet on an NFL side. There's no claim that this was a bad line. At that point, Tony could have reviewed the account and voided the wager if he thought there were something fraudulent. He didn't.

If he waited until after the event to void the winnings, the player was free-rolled. The only time the "industry standard" would allow that is if there were clear evidence of fraud. If, as the player states, the only evidence is that the player opened an account in LV on his friend's iPad, that's not enough (assuming we can verify he lives in LA, and placed the bet in LA).

Is this dispute really over an NFL Sides bet, and not some sort of NFL derivative? Limiting a player on the biggest US market is Mickey Mouse bookmaking. Voiding a winning wager on the biggest US Market after the event, under these circumstances, is scandalous without more.

Just curious, would this fall under a "bad limit" and be subject to cancellation? It was within that 7-10 window that books may not be aware of a problem. I don't think anyone would argue that this wasn't done within a reasonable amount of time. There were no repeated bets.

Bill Dozer and the player asked me to take a look at this dispute, and to "think out loud". From what I read, here are what I think the facts are.
1. Romaine is a sharp tennis player and was recognized as such by 5Dimes
2. Romaine was dissatisfied with the $100 - $250 limits allowed by 5Dimes on challenger. It appears that he opened multiple accounts for the purpose of circumventing 5Dimes' limits.
3. 5Dimes' software permitted Romaine to place multiple identical $500 parlays on tennis.
4. 5Dimes verbally told him the limits for Challenger Tennis.

What bothers me about this dispute? There isn't a clear right and wrong side.

Romaine comes in with "unclean hands". Professional players know better than to max-bet parlays repeatedly (or even max-betting normally, regardless of whether the software allows it) without contacting the book. He obviously went to great lengths to circumvent 5Dimes' limits. A small market like challenger is easy to beat - hence the lower limits. By using extra accounts, and repeatedly betting parlays, he knew he was in a gray area.

5Dimes comes in with "sloppy hands". Why does their software allow this kind of parlaying? Most sportsbook software allows a book to disable parlays and other exotics for entire markets. The second area 5Dimes was sloppy: why did it take them several months to realize they were getting beaten on parlays? Why wasn't this addressed immediately?

I would look at the first day of betting as a "bad limit", similar to a bad line. 5Dimes wanted to offer $250 exposures, not $5000 (or however much the player managed to bet). Similar to a bad line, it is reasonable to cancel a wager, as long as it is done in a reasonable amount of time. Sportsbooks have a bureacracy, and I realize they might not be aware of the problem for 7-10 days. In the case of a "bad limit", it could be reasonable for the book to go back, and cancel winning AND losing wagers made above the limit. If they caught it in this time period, they probably would not be down much, and might just eat the loss, and fix the problem.

This dispute is much worse though, because 5Dimes waited several months to take action. It cancelled all bets in excess of its limits, which would be a fair solution *if* it were done in a timely manner. They did not, which let them "freeroll" the player.

Both parties are in the wrong. Two things should happen: 1. 5Dimes should make some sort of compromise - perhaps honor all bets that were made more than 10 days before the dispute arose, and cancel the excess ones from the last 10 days. 2. 5Dimse should invest in better software and management. Both of these improvements would have prevented this problem.

2 suggestions for Romaine (and other pro players): 1 if you are going to bet more than the limits, ask the book for permission. I know many people have asked Pinnacle and been told it is ok once they move the line, although many books (including Pinny and Oly) will get mad if you use parlays to "pull a fast one". 2. don't use multiple accounts.

[daringly]

Hi edawg,

...It is very reasonable to conclude from the available information provided by both parties (player and sportsbook) that account two was simply a beard for account one.

...If 5Dimes were free rolling or looking to enforce their rules to the max, the deposit would be refunded and no winnings paid. They could have also allowed the player to keep betting instead of immediately suspending the account after the first bet.

Applicable rules:
1. Use of multiple accounts to circumvent limits is prohibited.
2. Use of multiple account numbers or names in order to receive bonus promotions, referral awards, or exceed limits is forbidden and may result in the forfeiture of ALL funds received/won as a result of these actions.

What's also worth keeping in mind as it relates to industry standards and precedents is that if this were a dispute at a sportsbook licensed by say the UK Gambling Commission - which some of the biggest books in the world are - there would be no chance that any of the winnings would be paid to account two due to the obvious rule breach...

5Dimes is a tightly run shop that is active in their risk management, this thread is an example of why circumventing limits is not a good idea.

So SBR is ruling that if two players share an IP address one time, that both players are operating multiple accounts? I'd note that 5Dimes' rule does not say that. It could say that. "If you and another player share an IP or device, the second account will be treated as a multiple account, all wagers voided, and closed." 5Dimes rules do not say that, while some sportsbooks prohibit shared IP addresses in their rules. 5Dimes simply prohibits one person from having two accounts.

One player places a bet from LA, and can show he lives in LA. His friend lives in another state, and his residence has not been questioned. Both were in Las Vegas at one time, and the player/victim used an iPad in Las Vegas owned by his friend. Based on that, is it more likely than not, that the person in Las Vegas is also controlling the LA account? No reasonable person could conclude that from what little has been shown here. In the past, SBR has required more.

Prior SBR statements on this issue:
"A book should have more evidence than a simple IP match in order to determine multi accounting." http://www.sportsbookreview.com/forum/sportsbooks-industry/1866222-sportingbet-closes-players-account-after-winning-free-bet.html#post15796376

"The most recent problem was ID fraud related. The player was making bets from UK, and a couple cities in the U.S. The book thought the player was a beard, and he might have been... but the player is getting paid. There was no hard proof that the player committed fraud."
http://www.sportsbookreview.com/forum/sportsbooks-industry/345129-sportsbooks-general-policy-using-different-ip-addresses.html#post3229246

"This is the difference between an "A" book and a "B" book.

Is it reasonable to keep the winnings and pay only the deposit in a clear fraud case? Yes. A-rated books will pay the winnings, even when they are in the right. Do I hold A-rated books to a "higher than fair" standard? Yes." (there's no proof of fraud here, but A books pay fair bets, and no one has suggested the player's bet was against a bad line). http://www.sportsbookreview.com/forum/sportsbooks-industry/134788-another-interesting-dispute.html#post1398893

If 5Dimes is "a tightly run shop that is active in their risk management", why didn't they void the bet before the game began? If they do that, there is no free-roll issue. Consider a $4800 bet to win $4500 (I don't have the exact wager risk/win amounts). Your normal expectation would be a loss of $150 -- winning and losing 50% of the time, you lose the juice half the time. Now consider 5Dimes' free-roll expectation. If you lose $4800, your bet is valid. If you win, you get only $900 in winnings. Your expectation is win 900 half the time, lose 4800 half time. On average, you lose $1950.

Is paying a $1950 on average a fair penalty for creating an account with a friend's iPad that doesn't violate any rule? 5dimes has no rule against sharing devices or IP addresses, only against having multiple accounts. The player's only wager was from his own residence.

I'm sorry for the player here. In past cases similar to his with most books, the player would be paid. SBR has made an exception to this in the past with 5dimes, where a player didn't have to be paid when owed. 5dimes got a pass a few years ago to stiff a player on 32k (5dimes disputed the amount owed, but their arguments were not supported by their rules, and the rules in fact supported the player). There is a detailed explanation of it at http://sportsbettingsites.org/news/5...-balance-2500/.

I wish you the best, but it does not appear that SBR is investigating if you had multiple accounts. They have already ruled against you, and are once again in damage control with a legitimate 5dimes complaint.

I would also put a * by 5dimes' A rating. At the top of SBR's entry page http://www.sportsbookreview.com/, there are 6 books listed including 5dimes. SBR's ratings are for the most part accurate. With 5dimes, I'd suggest they receive an A+* rating, which is treated as about a B- rating. In most cases, 5dimes is a solid book. When you incur the wrath of Tony, there is no force on Earth that will get you a fair shake, including SBR.

[TheMoneyShot]

So apparently... the OP and his friend were taking a shot at 5D? Like teaming up?