Those guys don´t cause steam, they just wait for a move that happens across the board at all books.
It´s pointless to explain all this here thou..
Comment
dwaechte
SBR Hall of Famer
08-27-07
5481
#142
Originally posted by Justin7
Any long-term winner will eventually cause steam. Their bankroll will grow, and they will become proficient at betting 20 places at the same time. I don't know of any books that can differentiate between steam and origination from a pro.
Yeah I'm not following this either Justin. We're not talking about him causing steam, we're talking about chasing it.
Comment
trixtrix
Restricted User
04-13-06
1897
#143
Play nice.
Comment
dwaechte
SBR Hall of Famer
08-27-07
5481
#144
Play nice.
Comment
trixtrix
Restricted User
04-13-06
1897
#145
Play nice.
Comment
trixtrix
Restricted User
04-13-06
1897
#146
Play nice.
Comment
dwaechte
SBR Hall of Famer
08-27-07
5481
#147
Play nice.
Comment
trixtrix
Restricted User
04-13-06
1897
#148
Play nice.
Comment
dwaechte
SBR Hall of Famer
08-27-07
5481
#149
Originally posted by trixtrix
Play nice. (edited by Justin)
First off, I have no idea why you would doubt I'm a "player". I have close to 3000 posts on this forum. If I'm not a gambler, I'm wasting a shitload of time.
I never argued against the fact that a heavy majority of SBR'ers were against the book here; I think that's pretty clear. It doesn't change the fact that saying no players were backing BP here is wrong and misleading.
And whether BetJam has done this or not is irrelevant to my argument. You're clearly arguing on the basis of industry standards. I'm arguing on the basis of the rules as laid out.
Comment
trixtrix
Restricted User
04-13-06
1897
#150
Play nice.
Comment
tomcowley
SBR MVP
10-01-07
1129
#151
Originally posted by dwaechte
Yeah I'm not following this either Justin. We're not talking about him causing steam, we're talking about chasing it.
One of my plays, I bet fast enough at larger shops to cause a line service popup. Then a smaller shop moved on air and beat me to my own play! If I'd gotten my play down with them, they would have thought I was chasing the steam- when it was my play across the board. That's Justin's point.
If BP wants to jack bonuses retroactively, then send them down to Betway range and let those two discuss the scourge of the earth that is The Money Method. A D/D- misbehaving isn't news. A B with a banner ad is.
Comment
Jaug
SBR MVP
01-11-09
3087
#152
On the players side here. Books take juice for a reason and cannot complain on "steam" when a player does well.
I used to bet steam resulting in a 95% roi over something like 700 bets. My bookies sure did not complain.
Comment
big joe 1212
SBR Posting Legend
06-01-08
19380
#153
Originally posted by JaimeBP
Let's keep it simple.
I am the one who removed the $5000 bonus from the account. You all know the reasoning behind this decision, and anyone trying to justify keeping a juicy bonus after being caught playing steam is simply wrong. The customer asked why the free play had been removed. I told him about the steam. He didn't know what I was talking about. I confronted him, and then he admitted getting on 'some' of the moves. I told the customer that I would be willing to give him back half of the bonus, as I didn't feel he was entitled to receive a 50% free play, considering the kind of action he was giving us. He declined the offer. Then I asked this gentleman to give me 15 minutes to speak to the owner, to see how he wanted to handle it. He decided to come to this forum, after that there wasn't much we could do to help him. Richard gave him his bonus back on the agreement that he would stay off the steam, to which he replied that "what if he happened to play one of the games that was moving?" I must acknowledge that he was always very polite and respectful; I appreciate that. However, if we let all these good customers come in and take advantage of our discount lines, along with high bonuses, and on top of it we let them get on all the steam, soon there would be no Bet Phoenix left for the rest of the players who enjoy playing with us. We will probably have to continue to deal with bonus hunters, scalpers, middlers, etc., but I hope this has set an example for those who think we'll just let them get away with all kinds of tricks. I know I'm going to get a lot of heat from a whole bunch of guys, who seem not to have anything better to do than to let out their frustrations through this forum. I'll tell you up front "I will not be wasting my time" talking nonsense. So after answering a couple of questions I'll be out of here for good. By the way, from everyone addressing this issue only Richard and I work for Bet Phoenix. Others who have backed our point of view are not on our payroll as a few suggested. They are just fair, honest individuals who share our way of doing bussiness. Good to know you are around, thank you. Jaime, Bet Phoenix Supervisor
Thanks for coming on here and trying to explain! I would see no problem with removing the bonus, if you indeed, did not notice the steam playing until after the bonus was given. I can see how this is possible since you probably did not look into it until he started winning. But if he was playing steam from the beginning(when he lost the initial deposit), and you knew it, then you would be wrong by trying to remove the bonus.
Comment
Stumpage
SBR MVP
09-21-05
2906
#154
Originally posted by JaimeBP
I know I'm going to get a lot of heat from a whole bunch of guys, who seem not to have anything better to do than to let out their frustrations through this forum.
Jaime, Bet Phoenix Supervisor
So in other words, anybody who disagrees with your decision has nothing better to do than come on this Forum to express that viewpoint? I'm more or less on the fence with regards to this issue, but your statement seems a tad flippant, particularly from somebody in a supervisory role.
Comment
dwaechte
SBR Hall of Famer
08-27-07
5481
#155
Originally posted by tomcowley
One of my plays, I bet fast enough at larger shops to cause a line service popup. Then a smaller shop moved on air and beat me to my own play! If I'd gotten my play down with them, they would have thought I was chasing the steam- when it was my play across the board. That's Justin's point.
If BP wants to jack bonuses retroactively, then send them down to Betway range and let those two discuss the scourge of the earth that is The Money Method. A D/D- misbehaving isn't news. A B with a banner ad is.
Ahh gotcha, I knew I was missing something. However, why on earth would someone tip a move at a larger book before playing it at the smaller ones where the information being sent is viewed as "garbage"" information?
Comment
Casi
SBR Wise Guy
02-16-09
506
#156
Originally posted by tomcowley
One of my plays, I bet fast enough at larger shops to cause a line service popup. Then a smaller shop moved on air and beat me to my own play! If I'd gotten my play down with them, they would have thought I was chasing the steam- when it was my play across the board.
That is the most hilarious thing in the whole thread
Go home story teller.
Comment
HedgeHog
SBR Posting Legend
09-11-07
10128
#157
Not as funny as the BP shill that keeps chiming in.
Comment
durito
SBR Posting Legend
07-03-06
13173
#158
The problem with some of these clown books is that they have started to define steam bets as any bet that gets the better of them.
Before they kicked me out, I could bet $1,000 on an NCABB total at BetOnline. They won't move. Then bet the same total for $500 at bookmaker, $500 at greek and $250 at pinnacle (and if these guys have these limits, there is no way betonline should have $1,000), the line moves, betonline follows their move and gives me a 90 second delay and eventually closes the account. These guys really have no idea what they are doing. The comparisons of BetOnline a year ago to Phoenix now are startling. It will only get worse once they drain through their startup funds.
Comment
Casi
SBR Wise Guy
02-16-09
506
#159
Get a life Hedgehog, just because someone has different opinions he is no shill.
And it gets old too, hey look a shill! How funny!
Btw you guys are shilling your own opinions all the time, if you didn´t notice it.
You could call yourself "We kiss each other asses against evil sportsbooks - syndicate", or something like that.
Comment
HedgeHog
SBR Posting Legend
09-11-07
10128
#160
Spoken like a true Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiLL.
Comment
pjesnik24
Restricted User
11-01-05
1286
#161
Originally posted by HedgeHog
Spoken like a true Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiLL.
I believe you have some kind of paranoia and you should really seek help.
and yes, let me introduce myself, I am a shill
Comment
HedgeHog
SBR Posting Legend
09-11-07
10128
#162
Originally posted by pjesnik24
I believe you have some kind of paranoia and you should really seek help.
and yes, let me introduce myself, I am a shill
At least you admit it. That would be a good first step for Casi, too.
As far as BP, there are too many complaints popping up on this forum for my taste. I don't know how any objective person could defend this Book. Instead we're all bonus whores and steam chasers if we back the players on these complaints.
So glad to meet you Shill... just call me Bonus-Whore.
Comment
yisman
SBR Aristocracy
09-01-08
75682
#163
Originally posted by trixtrix
some of the people standing up for betp in this case really need to wrap their minds up in some simple concepts..
i run a store, in order to attract business i offer opening day 50% rebate on EVERYTHING you purchase in the store. people come to my sale, purchase items, then sends in rebate form. i see some cheapskates who only ask for rebates on items they bought already at bottom floor discount prices, i think they're taking advantage of me and thus refuse to issue previously promised rebates..
in what country/land/world/planet would that logic EVER hold up in court?
the poster came to the books, wagered/risked his own funds at the book's lines under a certain agreed-upon premise. it makes no difference what that premise was, it's different for each individual, in some case it can be a bonus, in others perhaps a comp, ease of withdraw, ease of deposit, low juice.. etc
it does NOT matter what the premise is, it only matters that once the premise is agreed upon. you cannot RETROACTIVELY break the premise simply b/c you feel its no longer profitable for you to maintain the premise.
another good analogy would be like the bank who gave you the mortgage decides to repo your house, despite the fact that you have honoured all your payments and everything is good standings, simply b/c the house has appreciated in value and the bank feels like they can now sell it at a higher/better price that what you bought at..
exactly. I agree with this post.
I hate the "steam" argument. The guy is playing the lines offered to him. I don't personally play steam, but you can't punish people who do/
[quote=jjgold;5683305]I win again like usual
[/quote]
[quote=Whippit;7921056]miami won't lose a single eastern conference game through end of season[/quote]
Comment
dwaechte
SBR Hall of Famer
08-27-07
5481
#164
Originally posted by yisman
exactly. I agree with this post.
I hate the "steam" argument. The guy is playing the lines offered to him. I don't personally play steam, but you can't punish people who do/
First off, those were horrendous analogies; I have no idea why anyone would think they're at all on par with this situation.
But moving on...
Everyone has been condemning BetPhoenix on this issue without clearly refuting my two main points: a) Their rules state bonuses may be revoked if claimed by non recreational players. b) This was not a player following recreational betting patterns.
Durito and Justin both argued on how the term "steam chaser" itself can be vague, but their examples were not relevant to this particular case. My understanding of this case is that the practice of this particular individual was that of a 100% traditional steam chaser. He was blatantly and systematically practicing a method which the book is obviously going to take exception to. Blatantly and systematically practicing a non rec method.
This is clear in the agreement, and nothing done by BP in this case could be considered a breach of this agreement. It's business. It's the way the world works. Even if you think the book was taking a shot here, it doesn't matter. If it's in their rules, they can practice what they want.
And finally, I want to make my overall opinion more clear here: I am in no way comfortable with many of the practices of BetPhoenix. They reek of a book getting ahead of itself. They haven't been around long enough, they're spending huge amounts of dollars on advertising, and they probably don't have the talent to make what they're doing sustainable without resorting to unfair practices. I believe statements saying that both their and BetOnline's ratings are inflated due to monetary compensation to SBR are completely valid. Even in this particular case, I find the fact that this player was doing the same thing when he lost his initial 5k deposit and that they still gave him the 2nd bonus quite troubling, yet ultimately without any final bearing on the fairness of the decision by BP. I find the fact that in the another case they cancelled a parlay after 2 of the legs were at halftime troubling as well. If you want to argue that in this case because BetPhoenix isn't following standards set by other A or B books and that they should be downgraded because of it, that's fine. But don't say that because they weren't following the practices of A and B books that it makes their decision "wrong" or "unfair", and for heavens sake don't say that they're "stealing".
What bothers me about so many player complaints is that there's such a sense of entitlement among the players. They have what I feel is a naive and endangering view of online gaming and of business in general. People routinely fail to read the rules, and then bitch when the rules are followed. They send thousands of dollars to offshore companies who can up and walk away with the players money whenever the hell they want, with little to no legal consequences, and don't properly assess the risk in doing so. Worse yet, many of them realize the risk yet take it in a calculated way because they know SBR will bail them out. These people, including this individual, routinely "play stupid", misstate facts, and still get the benefit of the doubt anyway from SBR. Does anyone seriously believe that this individual had no idea that something like this could happen? That he was completed blindsided by it?
Use your head, assess the risk, play fair, and these types of things very rarely, if ever, happen.
Maybe someday I'll end up getting screwed by a book and come whining for SBR to bail me out, but until then I'm happy up on my high horse.
Comment
durito
SBR Posting Legend
07-03-06
13173
#165
I don't care what it says in their rules, it's stealing.
My biggest problem here is that even though Richard gave the free play back -- the Phoenix manager stands by what he did. Which means, it will happen again. And if that player isn't posting at SBR, it may stand.
BP needs to take a serious look at their risk management if they are giving out 50% bonuses on -105/-105 to professional players.
Comment
Casi
SBR Wise Guy
02-16-09
506
#166
Well what bothed me is, i always like to find good new outs.
BP with a B rating is a book i considered playing at, after they estabilished themself a bit more.
All this hate serves noone, a new book has to protect itself from guys that only hammer moving lines. To clarify the "steam":
I don´t think they mind if you grab a line that is off half a point in basketball f.e. But if you grab one that dropped by ~1.5 points, this will hurt all books in the long run. They get hammered for the max amount usually on this, and leave themself open for getting middled out.
Taking a bonus and only doing that is not what i consider fair play.
They protect themselves from giving out both a bonus and getting hammered on steam in their rules, and what i dun understand is how anyone can consider it stealing if a bonus is revoked because of that.
To make it clear one more time: Iam not on their payroll, i would just like to have them as a betting option for the future.
Good new books are very rare these days, just give them a chance and play fair.
Comment
dwaechte
SBR Hall of Famer
08-27-07
5481
#167
Originally posted by durito
I don't care what it says in their rules, it's stealing.
For the record, this situation was solved amicably, the player took his freeplay. He won some money with it and his roll was satisfied from previous play. He requested a payment, and was paid.
This would have been the result on or off the forum. We do try to manage risk, but also look at each case for fairness. A line manager made a decision that I overturned here based on the entire history of the account. I also maintain a complete open door policy with SBR as well, so players know that each case or any issues will be addressed. Unfortunately we do not have an "IBAS" type of auditor (UK mediator) in our part of the world, but SBR does a damn good job in a similar capacity.
Comment
Thremp
SBR MVP
07-23-07
2067
#169
Why was he only deemed a pro after winning?
Why was he offered an extremely nice offer after they knew exactly what type of wagers he was placing?
What are the criterion that they publish for recs/pros so that he can check his wagering against this format so you can know if you're unfairly being treated?
Sounds like BetPhoenix wrote a line into their TCs saying, "We steal from players, when we want to steal."
Comment
HedgeHog
SBR Posting Legend
09-11-07
10128
#170
Originally posted by RJbetphoenix
For the record, this situation was solved amicably, the player took his freeplay. He won some money with it and his roll was satisfied from previous play. He requested a payment, and was paid.
This would have been the result on or off the forum. We do try to manage risk, but also look at each case for fairness. A line manager made a decision that I overturned here based on the entire history of the account. I also maintain a complete open door policy with SBR as well, so players know that each case or any issues will be addressed. Unfortunately we do not have an "IBAS" type of auditor (UK mediator) in our part of the world, but SBR does a damn good job in a similar capacity.
For the record, an A or B Book usually does the right thing w/o the voice of the public. It seems that you steal first and see if the issue goes to SBR's Forum.
Plain to see you bought your B rating. Maybe you need to steal more so that you afford to buy an A rating.
Comment
RJbetphoenix
SBR High Roller
01-07-09
170
#171
Why was he only deemed a pro after winning?
Why was he offered an extremely nice offer after they knew exactly what type of wagers he was placing?
I refer back to my comment in my last post "We do try to manage risk, but also look at each case for fairness. A line manager made a decision that I overturned here based on the entire history of the account."
What are the criterion that they publish for recs/pros so that he can check his wagering against this format so you can know if you're unfairly being treated?
Good suggestion. I am currently working on rule updates across the board, and will add that in there for transparency.
Sounds like BetPhoenix wrote a line into their TCs saying, "We steal from players, when we want to steal."
It is a standard T and C on 99% of all betting sites including Europe where it is legal. That means all of us do it according to your definition, and I am saying this in a non-confrontational stance by the way. Not looking to argue, it is just a very real fact.
Comment
Casi
SBR Wise Guy
02-16-09
506
#172
Those guys just cannot stop lol...the 3 stooges.
Comment
RJbetphoenix
SBR High Roller
01-07-09
170
#173
For the record, an A or B Book usually does the right thing w/o the voice of the public. It seems that you steal first and see if the issue goes to SBR's Forum.
Plain to see you bought your B rating. Maybe you need to steal more so that you afford to buy an A rating.
Hedge,
All very untrue. I try to treat each client situation as if I was the client, and look at the complete issue. Forum or no forum. I see you in this thread a bit, and you seem to be upset. The player with the situation is good with us and continues to play daily now. He requested payment and got paid. What else can I do to make you happy?
Comment
RJbetphoenix
SBR High Roller
01-07-09
170
#174
Hedge,
I can fly you and Big Joe down to visit the facility sometime if you would like to see the operation. You two seem to have the most issues with us. PM me anytime for arrangements.