Wow.....This guy has it down to art form. I'd be willing to bet he just does this full-time, at a wide variety of books (Or, at least, any other books like WagerWeb who were basically asleep at the wheel).....
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Players such as these deserve NOTHING. I dont care what you guys think. Book the Bet , Pay the Bet (Bullshit). Dishonest whores like this should be get 0.00.Comment -
This is very good information, but I still believe the player is MUCH less to blame than the sportsbook. IF THE SPORTSBOOK TOOK THE ACTION AND FUNDS WERE AT RISK THE SPORTSBOOK SHOULD (MUST) PAY. Maybe they keep the games up after kickoffs on purpose - other books do this all the time to get late action. Granted it sounds like the player found an edge, but that is not his fault - anybody who bets would take advantage of a small edge if they could find one.
Bottom line is WagerWeb is a B- rated sportsbook that has been around for over 10 years. There is no excuse for this kind of mistake to be made by the sportsbook and it is their fault. The customer deserves to paid ! If not, the sportsbook should be severely downgraded.
Anyone else have any thoughts?????????
One more thing, if the player would have lost his money would we be having this discussion? Would the sportsbook have called him and said, "we noticed some of your plays were past posted and we would like to return your money....."
So, basically, the customer who beat the sportsbook was in a total NO possible win situation. Something is not right here!
At a minimum, the book should have noticed this MUCH earlier (and maybe they did and were planning on the customer to lose) and contacted the customer - the customer didn't make $37,000 overnight. Looks like a ton of plays in the above email............
TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE from a B- rated sportsbook.........Comment -
Another interesting point..........
In the plays listed from Justin, it appears that only 3 of them show the team bet on scoring a touchdown. ALL other plays show the team driving or kicking a FG..........how big of an advantage is it for a team to be driving or to kick a FG???
This makes me think the sportsbook was purposely leaving games on the board to take late action and maybe they got sloppy on a few of them. I am sure they made it up in volume for those players who played the other side.
Still feel WAGERWEB is totally putting the screws to this customer - so unfair!Comment -
Maybe its not a mistake, maybe the book took the bets knowing the player will never be paid if he wins! Who knows?
But of course its the players fault too!Comment -
I only skimmed it, but if you book it, then ****ing pay it !Comment -
Thanks Justin for that excellent and thorough investigation. The results showed what I expected and I'm very happy with your conclusion.
I'll also restate this from my previous post: If you don't want books taking shots at you, don't give them the opportunity. Is taking free shots at players fair? No. But in this instance, this player would have to be dumb as a brick to not be able to see that the book would have a problem with what he was doing. If what you're doing feels wrong, it probably is.
I have absolutely zero respect for this player(or any others like him) and hope that he does not receive any more than his original deposit back.Comment -
Not sure why people keep bringing this up...it's an entirely different problem.
Just because the book "might" screw a player in a particular situation doesn't make it OK for the player to try and screw the book in a completely different situation. He should get the original wagers back, and that's it. No rewards for people who exploit the system.Comment -
Furthermore, just because the book made it possible for this to occur and didn't notice it until later still doesn't make it OK. If somebody leaves their car keys in the car, I steal the car and nobody notices for a week, you better believe I've still committed larceny. Poor security measures and a slow-noticing owner do not mean I'm entitled to keep what I "won".Comment -
I agree, they probably knew it and knew the customer was in a NO WIN situation.
Still think the book has a ton of fault here. Sounds like we all are now blaming the customer, but how about the book?
Come on...............Comment -
What a joke!
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Amazing what these books come up with when it's time to pay a player. Any book that doesn't have procedures in place to stop late bets on halftime plays should be downgraded for being ran so poorly. That's bookmaking 101. I guess if I call a few minutes before 1PM tomorrow I will be able to past post on an NFL game if I keep the clerk on the phone long enough? Ridiculous.Comment -
By the way I admit it, I didn't read it all closely yet, will do that tomorrow. I did read enough though to find out this is probably another freeroll type of play by the book. These type of places likes to dangle carrots out there and then cry about the player taking a shot at them. Why fix the software if it's an excuse later for not paying? Hell for that matter I might adjust procedures so we always take "late" plays. If the player loses nothing is ever said. If a player wins big we can go back and grade his wagers once he asks for his money. Hopefully the player (like most of them) doesn't know about SBR and will accept our decision, if he does and a fuss is made we still have enough ammunition to play the victim in all this.
These low level books look for a reason not to pay winners, and believe me they are getting better and better at it. If they don't pay this guy SBR should demand they go back and grade all the other wagers they have let through after kick-off, not just sit back and cull through pay out requests to see what they can find. Another case where the player is held responsible for the incompetence of a book. I doubt very seriously they didn't know about this, they just waited until the right time to play their trump card. Only one time did I see a book step up and take responsibility for thier software, that was WSEX. Big difference between those A books and these type of places. Believe me they are going to do everything in their power not to pay you.
It's getting worse. Put in plays at another computer? Be careful. Play what might be a bad line? Not good. Bet a game that might have already started? You are screwed. And on it goes. We can't make a buck, we're too busy making sure the books don't make a "mistake" before we ask for our money. Pathetic.Comment -
Obviously WagerWeb knows that bets come in late because a human at Wagerweb takes them. This isn't a case of bets coming in on table tennis matches taking place on the other side of the world or bets getting in through a computer glitch. These are bets taken by a live clerk on games that, at least in most cases, go off at the same time every week.
It's apparent that Wagerweb Mgt. allow its clerks to finalize wagers after kick-off when the process is initiated before. This player exploited that and by staying with halves instead of full games, the advantage of knowing who won the coin flip or started a good drive is worth much more.
It's unrealistic to think 70 bets later that Wagerweb never knew they were taking NFL wagers after the posted start time and into the game. What they probably didn't know is how this specific player was using it until he asked for $40,000.Last edited by Bill Dozer; 12-08-07, 11:20 PM.Comment -
The player advantage is HUGE. This is the same thing as a palpable error. There was no free shot at the book becuase the player would have had to get seriously bad luck to lose money in the long run. Maybe GRANCH can come up with the odds of this player losing money over the span of bets he placed.
On a side note, why does anyone care about cheats being treated unfairly. If someone hits you don't you have the right to hit back twice as hard? The player set the rules of fair play.
If I were a cheat I wouldn't blame the book for punching me hard if I got caught, its just a cost of doing biz. Stop being a cry baby when your hand is caught in the cookie jar. Take your bad beat like a man, go on to the next hand.
Is this a Square bettor or a sharp? If he were a square and just stumbled on the idea that would be somewhat mitigating.Last edited by operaman; 12-09-07, 12:01 AM.Comment -
This is way beyond a 'mistake in the software'. The book is completely at fault. I agree 100% with John's earlier post. The player took a shot, but wasn't hiding anything. Everything was out in the open. And the book at every opportunity could have refused the bet. Absurd mistake by WW, but not the place to retroactively punish the player. Instead, they should thank the player for pointing out such an unbelievable weakness in their system. Now they know (how vulnerable -and stupid- they were).
For the record, players too make basic mistakes. I have yet to hear of a single case where the book would repay the player for a clear case of confusion.
Honorable people admit their mistakes. Dishonorable ones blame theirs on others.Last edited by Dark Horse; 12-09-07, 03:16 AM.Comment -
Totally agree with Bill and Dark Horse.......the player should get paid. What I didn't realize earlier is that all these bets were taken by a live person - I thought maybe there was a glitch with their Internet site. Now I really feel the book is at fault.
I am curious..........now that the customer has brought this is to SBR's attention............what will happen..............really feel this book needs to be downgraded immediately, unless of course they do the right thing and admit they made a mistake, learned from it and of course PAY this customer.
In my opinion, it is okay to make a mistake, but what you do about it is most important.
Keep us informed, please....................Comment -
Wagerweb: take responsibility for your mistakes
Wagerweb, act like a grown up book and take responsibility for your mistakes.
This book had a policy of accepting bets based on the time of the initial call.
If this results in a huge player advantage, so what? It is not the players responsibility to not do things that give him an advantage.
What are we suppose to do now when a clerk accepts a bet, ask to speak to management to make sure they accept the bet as well???
So what if he had a "huge" advantage. I can tell you that those betting parlays at sportsbook.com sometimes had huge advantages. Sharp players are only suppose to make plays with small advantages??? You think this player took no risk at all making these bets?
Unless this player broke very specific rules, I have no sympathy for the sportsbook. And if the rule states "no past posting" this is not specific.
You can say it is a common rule to not allow "past posting", but several books allow betting after games have started. They monitor the game and simply want last minute bets. I have made several bets at Olympic after the second half started.
You think Olympic is going to cancel these bets if when I cash out I have a net win from them? Of course not. Olympic is a grown up book. Wagerweb is not.Last edited by louis; 12-09-07, 04:54 AM.Comment -
Excellent points both pro and con by a lot of smart posters.
I think those that think he should be punished because he is a shot taker need to keep in mind these were phone in bets confirmed and final. Getting in late on the phone is the oldest trick in the book. Its up to the book to decide when to stop taking action.Comment -
Well Wagerweb is now off my list of playable books and I used to keep a very large balance there. (mid 5 figures)
This is blatant theft and tells you how poorly the industry is doing.
If you take a bet, you pay the bet. If you have a software glitch, maybe you have an arguement. But no one has a software glitch 10 years in (Wagerweb or Sportsbook). And no one has a software glitch when a bet is taken live on the phone. This is why books make sharps call in bets.
I have not placed a wager in a year because I know too many books will stall on paying.
But if you knew some of the things they paid over the past 5-10 years, you'd know for sure they are hurting bad now.
For a long time books would pay +100 on NFL teasers.
For a long time books would pay correlated parlays on CFB and CFB halves.
For a long time books would pay correlated parlays on NFL quarters.
For a long time books would pay correlated parlays on SOCCER (Which was ridiculous - tie and under 2.5)
I can not tell you how many past post games would get paid years ago.
And the most ridiculous one was I knew of books were you could bet Browns -7 for $10 and if and only if Browns -7 won, Browns -250 for $2500...
And in every one of those cases, the books paid. There was a time when if you took a bet, you paid it and the books did not care cause they were rolling in money.
They are now hurting bad and will look for any excuse in the book not to pay.
In the past, it was considered your job to beat the book. Now beating the book just means you won't get paid.
This industry is well on its way to garbage.
-SeanComment -
Good post, Sean !Comment -
This guy deserves to get paid and paid quickly by WagerWeb.
I hope SBR is able to help him because it will show these Sportsbook that you are going to have to be fair or SBR will ensure you are punished.........
For sure, WagerWeb must be downgraded for this quickly. They should move from B- to F.Comment -
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i'm the Dallasja that said WagerWeb is a scam. I TOLD y'all they were trying to pull a fast one during payout. I wouldn't be surprised if they altered the records too!
You book the bet, you pay - it was a live person, check to see if it kicked off an accept no further bets.
WagerWeb SUCKS!Comment -
So when can we expect Wager Web to commence the refunding of bets to players who lost money on half-time wagers placed after the start of the second half?Comment -
This really seems like a great opportunity for WagerWeb to gain immediate respect from many people. If they simply state they made a mistake and pay the customer they would get tremendously positive feedback and recognition from not only SBR, but the entire industry.
Seems like a win-win situation. I wonder if WagerWeb sees it that way - they really should.
What is the status of this situation? Can anyone at SBR give us an update here......................Comment -
Dallas,
There was never any real issue that these were past-posted bets. I'll be happy to forward the records to you (as I offered earlier).
Eric,
Wagerweb believes they are the victim here. I don't know of a single dispute where a player has been paid for past-posting - most players don't bother crying "foul" if they past-post. I've seen A-rated books cancel bets and close accounts for this kind of conduct. While it is unusual that it took Wagerweb 3 weeks to notice the cheating, that doesn't (IMO) make the player more entitled to keep his ill-gotten gains.Comment -
WTF is going on at SBR. Bill and John seem to see this.
This is the most clear cut case of a book ripping off a player that has hit this board in months (een sportsbook and SBG had a better case that these guys)
Pay the man his money
And Justin Dallasja was suggesting the casina records were editted not the sportsbook. He is referring to his own case.
I dont 100% disagree with him. This is abook on its knees hereComment -
I think differences of opinion within SBR are a healthy thing. However, I can't help noting that, at least in the cases that were made public here, Justin seems to be the one leaning most towards the book.
I don't know the precise influence of SBR over the industry, but if it is known that the watchdog's bark is not as bad as its bite, that could, possibly, inspire books to take advantage. Do we really want to see books redefining the boundaries of what is acceptable?Comment
