Horse Racing questions and answers

[str]

"The distance, trip, 3 races in 5 weeks, whatever was pinching him to make him run down up front, 4 different surfaces in 3 months, not being in his stall he is most comfortable in for the last 6 weeks all came into play. I mean, if you were not in your bed at home for 6 weeks and changing beds and motels, would you be dead perfect after working harder than you have ever worked in your life after all that? Of course not. But all this gets lost in the after thought. Very few are talking about this stuff. But this stuff is the reality of what a horse has to go through to try and win the Triple Crown.
Belmont trained horses actually have a decided edge if they are going for a triple crown because they get to have a home game for the 3rd leg, not 3 away games. I never hear any of this talked about. And it's too bad, because THAT is what is important. "


As a follow up to the home court advantage I spoke about yesterday in post 1457 about the Belmont, a friend of mine who read my post went back and looked at past TC winners and he found the following:

"I read your explanation of home track advantage for the Belmont Stakes.

Makes perfect sense.
On that note, I looked it up last week and not a single TC winner had not raced at least TWICE over the Belmont surface before the Belmont Stakes. "



If certain writers and talking heads would stop bashing rider's and trainer's for a minute maybe they could write or say something that actually helps the reader or listener for a change instead of casting doubt about a sport that is already clouded with doubt because management can't get together and do ANYTHING right for anyone except themselves. Unreal.

[JBEX]

Sorry Man. I have used this term off and on but it's explanation is waaay back in this thread.

The box is the outside post going one turn when the outside horse has speed and wants to control the pace. If the horse breaks well, and gains a 1/2 or 3/4 or even a length advantage, that horse basically is in total control of every horse in the race. Why? Because as they run down the backside, the outside speed horse does not just cut over to get to the rail. It slowly leans towards the inside and if you watch the head on when this happens, one by one, every horse that has either speed or position speed ( closers will take back anyway), will all start to check out of the hole as they approach the turn or have to fully commit to getting to the lead before the turn, thus burning energy before they might have wanted to. Why? Because when they all switch to there left lead, at 3-4 feet per horse, times the , let's say 4 horses still up fairly close, between 12 and 16 feet of space between those horses will vanish and if they don't check out, they will clip heels over one another and possibly fall. So if used correctly by the outside rider, the outside speed has total control of the race until about the 3/8ths pole. The horse goes from 1 length in front to about 3 lengths in front and the rider has saved a lot of energy, while others have had to burn energy. As a result, it is a HUGE advantage if the rider uses it correctly, and most veteran rider's will. If they do not, and could, they have blown a golden opportunity .

So, the box, called that because you have a chance to box in the whole field, is the best draw in one turn races if the horse has speed.

Hope that makes sense.

No problem at all.. Always seemed to me there was an advantage for the outside speed horse around one turn
and now know why and how it happens.. Thanks

[harthebar]

yep eddie maple....yea it was very cool looking at those horses, i was wearing shorts, and they werent allowed,,,,,the guard let us go,,,,i can surly say...we were under dressed.......but we were owners in our minds....did that gash really happy to chrome, and does it really effect a horse that much ?...it looks like it could be a common thing ?

Eddie Maple.

A real fine rider back in the day.

Very nice pics.

Glad to hear you got into the paddock.

[str]

yep eddie maple....yea it was very cool looking at those horses, i was wearing shorts, and they werent allowed,,,,,the guard let us go,,,,i can surly say...we were under dressed.......but we were owners in our minds....did that gash really happy to chrome, and does it really effect a horse that much ?...it looks like it could be a common thing ?

Good for you Har !

Getting in the paddock is like getting seats on the floor or on the dugout.

The grabbed quarter that CC sustained in the race was no big deal. I cannot imagine that it affected him at all. Very , very doubtful. Those typically heal up in about 10 days. It is not a common thing, but trainers see it often enough. In almost all cases, it's not nearly as big a deal as it looks at first. It is just tender a couple of days until the air can toughen up the exposed skin. Like tearing a fingernail some, to the quick . Hurts a little when you do it, sore to the touch for a day or two, and toughens up after a few days.

Again, no big deal.

[Seastriper]

Hello Everyone,

Can someone tell me if Saratoga is just Harness racing or do they switch over. I am driving through in August and am not the biggest fan of Harness... I may stop in

Thank You

[str]

Hello Everyone,

Can someone tell me if Saratoga is just Harness racing or do they switch over. I am driving through in August and am not the biggest fan of Harness... I may stop in

Thank You

The Saratoga summer meet runs from July 18th through Sept. 1st. They are dark on Tuesdays.

Whatever you do, make some time to stop in and take in a day or two of races. It is the premier race meet on the east coast and probably the country.

If you can predetermine what day or days you can be there, I highly suggest spending the morning at Saratoga . As a fan of racing that is interested in learning how the game works, there is a lot to see in the AM with the horses training and working out.

Go to SaratogaRacetrack.com and it will give you any info on hotels, places to eat, etc. as well as the schedule and what Stakes will run and when and how to go in the mornings if you want to. The horse racing hall of fame is across the street from the track. The yearling sales is also there during the meet for several days. Get a free catalog and maybe see tomorrows champion sell in the sales ring.The more time you have to spend there, the more incredible it is, if you really want to learn and feel the game. I would venture to say that walking through the track, the hall of fame and the sales area , especially in the morning when it is not at all crowded, is the same as walking through old Yankee Stadium or Fenway Park if you love baseball.

The times that I have been there, I could just feel the history in the air in the mornings.

[Seastriper]

The Saratoga summer meet runs from July 18th through Sept. 1st. They are dark on Tuesdays.

Whatever you do, make some time to stop in and take in a day or two of races. It is the premier race meet on the east coast and probably the country.

If you can predetermine what day or days you can be there, I highly suggest spending the morning at Saratoga . As a fan of racing that is interested in learning how the game works, there is a lot to see in the AM with the horses training and working out.

Go to SaratogaRacetrack.com and it will give you any info on hotels, places to eat, etc. as well as the schedule and what Stakes will run and when and how to go in the mornings if you want to. The horse racing hall of fame is across the street from the track. The yearling sales is also there during the meet for several days. Get a free catalog and maybe see tomorrows champion sell in the sales ring.The more time you have to spend there, the more incredible it is, if you really want to learn and feel the game. I would venture to say that walking through the track, the hall of fame and the sales area , especially in the morning when it is not at all crowded, is the same as walking through old Yankee Stadium or Fenway Park if you love baseball.

The times that I have been there, I could just feel the history in the air in the mornings.

Thank You so MUCH!

I am staying one day in Saratoga and can't WAIT

[erinseyes]

Hey STR, sorry for the late reply! I have been trying to respond with a picture of my horse and a link to his equibase but have been unable to post it through the site.

Regarding the picture of CC's leg, now that I am on my desktop as opposed to my phone I can see the picture way better. Thank you your explanation helped A LOT. I see the red right there by the ergot. Let me see if I completely understand: He is choppy because he doesn't have the push off with his hind end and is using the wrong muscles to compensate, and in turn putting way more weight on his front end. And when the pastern touches the dirt he creates enough friction to burn through the ergot. Ouch. I can only imagine the wear and tear he is feeling and what a heart he has for going despite it!



My boy's name was Da Nine, he was out of Luz Daniela and Nine Eleven. He was registered as gray or roan, I think he raced as a gelding. He had 8 starts, mostly at Hollywood and Santa Anita, and finally came off the track at 3 and a friend of mine got him and then I bought him from her 4 years ago as she was off to vet school. He has worked out great for me, extremely smart and talented and a heart of gold. After having him I totally understand the love people have for the breed. That is him in my avatar. Thanks again for your insight!

[str]

Hey STR, sorry for the late reply! I have been trying to respond with a picture of my horse and a link to his equibase but have been unable to post it through the site.

Regarding the picture of CC's leg, now that I am on my desktop as opposed to my phone I can see the picture way better. Thank you your explanation helped A LOT. I see the red right there by the ergot. Let me see if I completely understand: He is choppy because he doesn't have the push off with his hind end and is using the wrong muscles to compensate, and in turn putting way more weight on his front end. And when the pastern touches the dirt he creates enough friction to burn through the ergot. Ouch. I can only imagine the wear and tear he is feeling and what a heart he has for going despite it!



My boy's name was Da Nine, he was out of Luz Daniela and Nine Eleven. He was registered as gray or roan, I think he raced as a gelding. He had 8 starts, mostly at Hollywood and Santa Anita, and finally came off the track at 3 and a friend of mine got him and then I bought him from her 4 years ago as she was off to vet school. He has worked out great for me, extremely smart and talented and a heart of gold. After having him I totally understand the love people have for the breed. That is him in my avatar. Thanks again for your insight!

Q. Let me see if I completely understand: He is choppy because he doesn't have the push off with his hind end and is using the wrong muscles to compensate, and in turn putting way more weight on his front end.

A. Yes. Once the hind end loosens up , after about a mile of a typical 2 mile gallop, which is not at all uncommon, He is able to reach out more comfortably and fully extend. But when a horse burns up front, in almost all cases, it is somewhat like a lean of weight from left hind to right front or vise versa, depending on the particular horse. That is why I suggested that he is probably pinching a bit more on his left hind end than his right.

Q. And when the pastern touches the dirt he creates enough friction to burn through the ergot. Ouch. I can only imagine the wear and tear he is feeling and what a heart he has for going despite it!

A. Yes. Like if you drag your foot with only a sock on across the rug. It heats up. Do it long enough and it will burn somewhat. Do know that within the scope of all that goes on in a race though, that burning rarely affects the horse during the race. It needs to be way worse than that. Like 4 times that and into the meat somewhat. It IS certainly tender to the touch for a few days afterwards and if you do it up ( bandage it) with Panalog and gauze, it will heel up very well. Can't use Neosporin unless you will not run for a month at least. It has small amounts of procaine or pain relieving agents in it and could easily set off a positive if the horse runs back within 30 days. not the case here though.

Great pic of the horse . Being a roan, watch out for his feet, especially if he is a Cal. Bred. Try and keep them not too soft but definitely not too hard. Remember, no feet, no horse and roans and Cal. breds can tend to have tricky feet.

All the best to you and your horse. If there is anything I can do in the future to help out, I am happy too.

[JBEX]

Hey str... See Tony D running a 600k firster (colt) in the 3rd at Bel tomorrow.. Super Saver
17.5k freshman sire and out of a dam who was 1/10 for 28k..Her only
foal to race ran 3rd twice in 5 starts for 12k.. Horse must be some specimen
to command that much with that pedigree.. Love the name.. "I Spent it"

He has another firster (filly) in R1 by same sire a 2yo state bred.. both
come in with sharp fair hill works. Both fields look very deep with talented firsters. He also
has one that he owns going in the 7th

[str]

Hey str... See Tony D running a 600k firster (colt) in the 3rd at Bel tomorrow.. Super Saver
17.5k freshman sire and out of a dam who was 1/10 for 28k..Her only
foal to race ran 3rd twice in 5 starts for 12k.. Horse must be some specimen
to command that much with that pedigree.. Love the name.. "I Spent it"

He has another firster (filly) in R1 by same sire a 2yo state bred.. both
come in with sharp fair hill works. Both fields look very deep with talented firsters. He also
has one that he owns going in the 7th

600k for that pedigree is a ton of money. TD probably did not buy the horse and/or recommend it. Not at that number I would not think. He may have represented a buyer or whatever but that price is not his style as a rule. I am due to talk to him in a week or two so I will try and remember to ask.

It is getting close enough to start watching for trainers to NOT run firsters that they are really high on until Saratoga. Plenty of trainers point to make a big splash there each year. Don't know the details on these horses though.

A look back at who does what each year with firsters and % can lend some clarity to the upcoming meet. Some owners remember who wins in early July at Belmont but EVERYONE remembers who wins at Saratoga. Plenty of yearling buyers are watching each year. It is the premier place to have people take notice each year.

Keep an eye on that and it will help starting later this month.

[JBEX]

You would think the horse is ready to roll running him this early
and what he cost. Of course that doesn't mean it has to happen
today but they must like his chances. If he did win doubt they would
run him in the Sanford 7/19 but maybe the Saratoga Special 8/10
assuming of course he comes out of the race OK. maybe that's what
they're thinking.. btw just making horse chat.. nothing to do with
whether he's a good bet today

[str]

You would think the horse is ready to roll running him this early
and what he cost. Of course that doesn't mean it has to happen
today but they must like his chances. If he did win doubt they would
run him in the Sanford 7/19 but maybe the Saratoga Special 8/10
assuming of course he comes out of the race OK. maybe that's what
they're thinking.. btw just making horse chat.. nothing to do with
whether he's a good bet today

Oh, I know that JBEX. With you, it goes without saying.

You know the drill on firsters though. Secretariat got beat the 1st time. Lol.

My answer might have been confusing. You are right, you don't pay 600k for a horse and not have them dead ready 1st time. It might not work out but you just don't run to run. TD likes to have a firster ready for Saratoga but he is the kind of guy that lets the horse tell him when to run, not the condition book. I would have to think that both firsters are ready to represent themselves or they would not be entered. I see 1st lasix also which he does not always do first time out.

TD is well respected enough that a price is not at all the object. Too many players are aware of his talent with babies. I was speaking more so about other trainers. After rereading my post, I could have said what I meant better. Sorry about that and good luck today.

And yes, lets hope the Sar. Spec. is on his wish list. I will watch for the results and talk to him soon enough. Am hopeful of going up to see him for a couple of days at the Spa but am waiting on a couple of things to pan out first before I can commit. It's been almost 3 years since I went up there. That's incredible. Man, where does the time go.

[JBEX]

OK str.. hopefully both turn out well and you make it up there this
summer.. would be interested to hear what TD has to say about them..
Thanks again

[str]

OK str.. hopefully both turn out well and you make it up there this
summer.. would be interested to hear what TD has to say about them..
Thanks again

So I was able to watch both races and I will ask TD, WTF is going on with clipping heels with BOTH horses? Unreal !

The 1st horse was checked slightly early, recovered nicely and was poised to pounce when she clipped heels and lost her action briefly just before the 1/4 pole ( did not get to see a replay), losing about 4-5 lengths doing so. From that point she was out of sync and never recovered but the hell with that, I just want her to come back in one piece. She has plenty of ability, no doubt.

Then, it happens again to the 2nd horse. He was able to recover right away and wears down the speed horse but WTF !!!

This Super Saver baby has a promising future and more ground will only make him better and more comfortable.

I will let you know what he says .

[JBEX]

So I was able to watch both races and I will ask TD, WTF is going on with clipping heels with BOTH horses? Unreal !

The 1st horse was checked slightly early, recovered nicely and was poised to pounce when she clipped heels and lost her action briefly just before the 1/4 pole ( did not get to see a replay), losing about 4-5 lengths doing so. From that point she was out of sync and never recovered but the hell with that, I just want her to come back in one piece. She has plenty of ability, no doubt.

Then, it happens again to the 2nd horse. He was able to recover right away and wears down the speed horse but WTF !!!

This Super Saver baby has a promising future and more ground will only make him better and more comfortable.

I will let you know what he says .

Yes I noticed both had some trouble. Zo Zo had a lot of horse after recovering
from the check in the backstretch but the second event too much for her. Probably
a good follow up horse next time. "I Spent it All" very impressive after recovering
from similar trouble and be interested if the Special is his next start.. Look forward
to hearing from you about AD's take on these two

[JBEX]

hey str.. eddie broome (a trainer who I've always respected over the years) ran a horse for a 5k tag this past Sunday.. 6yo mare who earned about 140k over the course of her career and this appeared to be the first huge drop to the bottom of the barrel. However in this case besides just owning the horse he also bred it.. Do you think under these circumstances a)
others might not claim the horse out of respect for the trainer feeling he doesn't want to lose her .. b) broome has an emotional attachment to this animal and has some misgivings about having to put her up for sale

[getthatheadup]

Str,
New to this forum but have viewed this thread with much respect and admiration of the time you devote and your kind demeanor.Thanks so much. First off I apologize for any poor pronunciation and or errors in my messages. Im old school and type slowly. Just too much time to go back and correct.LOL. So many questions ive longed to ask a real pro so I will start with the most perplexing to me.
CLASS??!! I understand it is a very subjective and broad subject but perhaps you can shed some light.Now big jumps are obvious and deal with ability.( a horse running 6 furlongs in 5k clamiers is not going to run in the breeders cup sprint) However I have seen many horses that hit a wall at even slight increase in class(.ie open 5k vs open7.5k) Often the times ran are very close and sometimes even faster in the lower class.Ive spent a lot of time analyzing these situations including checking the times of races at the same distance on the same day a horse has run. example; a horse at 6 panels wins a 5k claimer in1:11. steps up to 8k and gets trounced with a final time of 1:11. checking times of other races on both days I find no evidence of track bias. At first I thought it was often due to pace. There again I often found no significant difference. As im sure you know this is not an anomaly with some horses but rather the norm.

So the million dollar question? WHAT THE HELL??. In my early and naive days I thought horses knew nothing but run as fast as they can. Just watch how John Henry and Zenyatta hamed it up and you newbies will understand how silly this notion is. The good ones know the game and I feel the answer lies there. Is it the eye contact? The grunting and loud noises that happen during a race? Some would say that the lower class horse gave up easier because they are challenged at some point but so often they are never involved at all.

Str thanks again. You are a true gentleman. To other posters, I look forward to engaging with you.

[str]

hey str.. eddie broome (a trainer who I've always respected over the years) ran a horse for a 5k tag this past Sunday.. 6yo mare who earned about 140k over the course of her career and this appeared to be the first huge drop to the bottom of the barrel. However in this case besides just owning the horse he also bred it.. Do you think under these circumstances a)
others might not claim the horse out of respect for the trainer feeling he doesn't want to lose her .. b) broome has an emotional attachment to this animal and has some misgivings about having to put her up for sale

Too some extent both. Plenty of trainers might want to give him a pass as the breeder after all those years running for far more but... if they run a 5k starter for mares and that would make her eligible, if that is applicable, then no, it's still a business and starter horses can run in the same condition for a year and make a ton of money, again, IF, that is applicable at the track where she ran.

No question he has an emotional attachment being the breeder but just as I said before, business is business and at some point you have to do what is right for the horses future as well as your bankroll, that is, running the horse where she can compete, make money, and maybe get the confidence by winning a couple of races to re energize her mentally and get her back on a roll. Sometimes with an older ex class horse, all it takes is some confidence and they start feeling real good about themselves.

Is this the horse that I saw you pick and said she was dropping to 5k and had back class a couple of days ago?

[JBEX]

Too some extent both. Plenty of trainers might want to give him a pass as the breeder after all those years running for far more but... if they run a 5k starter for mares and that would make her eligible, if that is applicable, then no, it's still a business and starter horses can run in the same condition for a year and make a ton of money, again, IF, that is applicable at the track where she ran.

No question he has an emotional attachment being the breeder but just as I said before, business is business and at some point you have to do what is right for the horses future as well as your bankroll, that is, running the horse where she can compete, make money, and maybe get the confidence by winning a couple of races to re energize her mentally and get her back on a roll. Sometimes with an older ex class horse, all it takes is some confidence and they start feeling real good about themselves.

Is this the horse that I saw you pick and said she was dropping to 5k and had back class a couple of days ago?

No that one was Mountaineer.. Never thought of it along those lines. The minimum starter race at Monmouth is $6250
if I read the condition book right. This would make her eligible for str 5k races out of town for a while I guess. She wasn't claimed and didn't run a lick at 2-1.Have a hunch that might have been his motive running her in that spot although apparently no starter that low at Monmouth

[madmaxx]

Good question here. If I understand you correctly, you are asking why the horse ran 1:11 and won the race for 5k but at 8k the winning time was 1:11 and the horse was really distant. A lot of times when you are dealing with cheap claimers, particularly older horses with a lot of career starts, a horse can run lights out (at least for the level) then come back 2 weeks later and just circle around the track. You can consider a few things here. Is this a speed horse that got an easy lead in the first race but couldn't get a lead in the class hike? You mention eye contact...that could be a factor. If the horse looks down another horse, he/she may immediately back off. Other horses will not put forth the best effort until they are engaged with another horse. So if the horse had the lead in the 5k race and was clear the whole way but was in between other horses in the 8k race, he may have just backed off.

Lots of variables here which makes it so difficult to handicap these lower level races. One thing you have to note is the track/circuit itself. A 1k class hike at a dogshit track is significant where a hike from 8k to 10 or 12k at a bigger circuit track may essentially be the same group but the horse needed to find conditions that would fit.

Str,
New to this forum but have viewed this thread with much respect and admiration of the time you devote and your kind demeanor.Thanks so much. First off I apologize for any poor pronunciation and or errors in my messages. Im old school and type slowly. Just too much time to go back and correct.LOL. So many questions ive longed to ask a real pro so I will start with the most perplexing to me.
CLASS??!! I understand it is a very subjective and broad subject but perhaps you can shed some light.Now big jumps are obvious and deal with ability.( a horse running 6 furlongs in 5k clamiers is not going to run in the breeders cup sprint) However I have seen many horses that hit a wall at even slight increase in class(.ie open 5k vs open7.5k) Often the times ran are very close and sometimes even faster in the lower class.Ive spent a lot of time analyzing these situations including checking the times of races at the same distance on the same day a horse has run. example; a horse at 6 panels wins a 5k claimer in1:11. steps up to 8k and gets trounced with a final time of 1:11. checking times of other races on both days I find no evidence of track bias. At first I thought it was often due to pace. There again I often found no significant difference. As im sure you know this is not an anomaly with some horses but rather the norm.

So the million dollar question? WHAT THE HELL??. In my early and naive days I thought horses knew nothing but run as fast as they can. Just watch how John Henry and Zenyatta hamed it up and you newbies will understand how silly this notion is. The good ones know the game and I feel the answer lies there. Is it the eye contact? The grunting and loud noises that happen during a race? Some would say that the lower class horse gave up easier because they are challenged at some point but so often they are never involved at all.

Str thanks again. You are a true gentleman. To other posters, I look forward to engaging with you.

[str]

Str,
New to this forum but have viewed this thread with much respect and admiration of the time you devote and your kind demeanor.Thanks so much. First off I apologize for any poor pronunciation and or errors in my messages. Im old school and type slowly. Just too much time to go back and correct.LOL. So many questions ive longed to ask a real pro so I will start with the most perplexing to me.
CLASS??!! I understand it is a very subjective and broad subject but perhaps you can shed some light.Now big jumps are obvious and deal with ability.( a horse running 6 furlongs in 5k clamiers is not going to run in the breeders cup sprint) However I have seen many horses that hit a wall at even slight increase in class(.ie open 5k vs open7.5k) Often the times ran are very close and sometimes even faster in the lower class.Ive spent a lot of time analyzing these situations including checking the times of races at the same distance on the same day a horse has run. example; a horse at 6 panels wins a 5k claimer in1:11. steps up to 8k and gets trounced with a final time of 1:11. checking times of other races on both days I find no evidence of track bias. At first I thought it was often due to pace. There again I often found no significant difference. As im sure you know this is not an anomaly with some horses but rather the norm.

So the million dollar question? WHAT THE HELL??. In my early and naive days I thought horses knew nothing but run as fast as they can. Just watch how John Henry and Zenyatta hamed it up and you newbies will understand how silly this notion is. The good ones know the game and I feel the answer lies there. Is it the eye contact? The grunting and loud noises that happen during a race? Some would say that the lower class horse gave up easier because they are challenged at some point but so often they are never involved at all.

Str thanks again. You are a true gentleman. To other posters, I look forward to engaging with you.

Welcome to the forum and thank you for all the kind words.

You sure did ask a million dollar question and one very close to my heart for your 1st one. This question is one that I must have asked 50 different people in my early days on the track. But I asked the older guys not the guys my age. From old grooms , vets, blacksmiths, and once I was a trainer and had access to other trainers and jocks, I asked a bunch of them also. Because the google years are upon us, I won't name drop full names but some last names that I asked that you would probably know include, H. Clark, S. Hine, J. Tammaro Sr., B. Delp ( when he finally started talking too me. That story is in this thread),B. Bond, and a lot more. I even asked Eddie Sweat, Secretariats groom, 2 nights before the Preakness. I asked the racing secretary's, Abundi and Raffeto, jocks like Passmore, Bracciale, Davidson,MacBeth,Perret and Imparato. Tried to ask the Shoe the one time I was able to ride him on a horse I trained but friggin Cossell screwed that up( that's in this thread also). I even asked Pincay when I was a groom for my mentor on the way to the track from the paddock on Preakness or B.E.Susan day, can't remember, while leading him out to the track. I am pretty sure he thought I was crazy. Lol. But the fact that your exact question was the one I chose to ask in one minute tells you just how important that question was too me. For many of these people it seemed to really stump them. There is no clear cut answer. But there were indeed opinions that led me to my conclusion and honestly helped form me in to a trainer that was not a conventional type but one that thought a little differently than most. Not sure if that was a good thing or not . I was told by some that I was a goofy Gemini and left handed so what do you expect. Lol. And while I don't really believe all that stuff, I would not have had it any other way.

Mr. Clark, a HOFer and an old groom who left quite an impression on me when I 1st came on the track probably gave the best answers. Mr. Clark said something to the effect that the answer lied within each individual and when asked for it , they would fully deliver or have no interest in it. Mr. Barry, the groom, said something like, just like people,class shows in subtle ways. He said, just look at a horses stall at 5 am each morning. The horses with class will have things still in order while the ones that don't will have crapped where they eat. Both were right as were others because I don't think a wrong answer truly exists. Nobody really knows exactly, for sure, the answer.

As a handicapper, you do not have access to all that I mentioned so let me summarize all that I put together after asking this for probably 4-5 years .

More often than not, a 5k type horse will fail when asked to step up. But for those that do not, look for these clues. In no particular order.

Check the breeding and see if the sire was a faint hearted , oh well, I will get em next time type or a blood and guts fighter type that never gives up. That is not that hard to figure out if you know the more popular sires past accomplishments. And while you will never get it right all the time, you will often enough or at least a sense of it. It would be darn near impossible to know the mares but they can also influence this. So if you do know a particular mare, all the better.

Look to see if the horse once had any back class to begin with, that is, did this horse accomplish things once upon a time and if the horse gets happy, can he climb the ladder somewhat before the added pressure on it's body aggravates an old injury or creates a new one, thus hampering climbing further up the ladder. The clue here will be the trainer keeping the horse at the same level or even dropping it back slightly. In most cases, the mental is still there and the horse will continue to grind and run very well. But once they lose, that might be it for a while. Not always, but many more times than not IMO.

Watch the post parade and look for the horse that might stand stoically and view the surroundings when it turns to gallop or jog off. See if the jock allows this to happen. If the rider does, it is a sign of respect and more times than not, the horse will run very well.

If you know the horse well, maybe they have added some weight and their coat looks much better. Changing barns to a new trainer and new diet and training routine can definitely get a horse happy. Or being reunited with a jockey that brought out the best previously. Blks. on or a change in distance, usually a stretch out can certainly do the trick. But at the end of the day, it's all about the horse being happy and really enjoying the competition.



Now I know that plenty will read this and say, c'mon man, who has time for all this stuff? For Christ's sake just bet . But remember, you asked a specific question that too me, is a horseman's question more so than a handicapping question. All the Beyers in the world can't touch this answer. Many of the quality people I asked could not really answer this exact question without studdering or falling all over their words. And the reason why is exactly what H. Clark, who I shared my first barn with back in 76 at Pimlico said. It's within each individual horse to answer and we won't really know until it's too late. With that said, it's up to each bettor to just say too hell with it or try and find the subtle clues to come up with the answer.

Yes, the good ones are also more times than not, the smart ones and the hamming it up is a sure sign of class. They are basically saying, I own this place . This is MY track. Welcome too it everyone.

The answer indeed does lie where you thought it did. It is the eye contact often enough but it took me years and years to see through a horses eye and try to reach their sole. And there are many people that are much better at it than I ever was. The real good horses usually had it. Again,back in this thread, is the Ruffian story I told and her eyes. Pretty sure those eyes were one of the reasons I became a trainer. Simply like nothing i had ever seen before and I will never forget them.

The grunting and loud noises no. It's not that.

As for times, because of soooo many things that can affect time, don't try and look at it like " the horse ran 1:11 so it can do it again against better. The old race track atage that time only matters when your in jail is pretty accurate. So don't go there. If you want to compare times, compare the first quarter or the 1/2 mile time but only at the same track because the run up before the clock can change from track to track so the same horse that cuts 22:1 at Monmouth can only cut 23:1 at Pimlico. It is running just as fast but the clock is starting after 10 feet instead of 30 feet. Hope that makes sense.

While pace can certainly be a factor in horses moving up, it seems you have that understanding down pat so when all else has been excluded, look within the individual and see if it existed before an injury or downturn. If it did, it is still in there but the horse needs to be in a positive frame of mind for that to surface.

I firmly believe that when some over matched horses get into the gate with better horses, they can sense it and within 5 strides out of the gate, they realize that they just cannot compete. So they never really give all they could because they are mentally defeated before they know what hit them. This also holds true with people sometimes. Horses do not know much, but they sure as hell know about competition and just like humans, without the proper physique, they are done before they start.

I sure hope all of this has helped answer a question that is not only close to my heart but was a question that I watched many many great horseman fumble all over the place. It was their fumbling that helped me better understand it and hopefully help you and others with it as well.

So while you might thank me for the answer I want to thank you for asking it. It allowed me to wander back in my minds eye and remember and visualize some of the best times of my life. I hope you and others can enjoy this thread as much as I enjoy sharing my times with you.

Hope to hear from you again.

[str]

Str,
New to this forum but have viewed this thread with much respect and admiration of the time you devote and your kind demeanor.Thanks so much. First off I apologize for any poor pronunciation and or errors in my messages. Im old school and type slowly. Just too much time to go back and correct.LOL. So many questions ive longed to ask a real pro so I will start with the most perplexing to me.
CLASS??!! I understand it is a very subjective and broad subject but perhaps you can shed some light.Now big jumps are obvious and deal with ability.( a horse running 6 furlongs in 5k clamiers is not going to run in the breeders cup sprint) However I have seen many horses that hit a wall at even slight increase in class(.ie open 5k vs open7.5k) Often the times ran are very close and sometimes even faster in the lower class.Ive spent a lot of time analyzing these situations including checking the times of races at the same distance on the same day a horse has run. example; a horse at 6 panels wins a 5k claimer in1:11. steps up to 8k and gets trounced with a final time of 1:11. checking times of other races on both days I find no evidence of track bias. At first I thought it was often due to pace. There again I often found no significant difference. As im sure you know this is not an anomaly with some horses but rather the norm.

So the million dollar question? WHAT THE HELL??. In my early and naive days I thought horses knew nothing but run as fast as they can. Just watch how John Henry and Zenyatta hamed it up and you newbies will understand how silly this notion is. The good ones know the game and I feel the answer lies there. Is it the eye contact? The grunting and loud noises that happen during a race? Some would say that the lower class horse gave up easier because they are challenged at some point but so often they are never involved at all.

Str thanks again. You are a true gentleman. To other posters, I look forward to engaging with you.

Lastly, you mentioned John Henry. Thought I would send along a picture of his saddle towel that he never wore. It was the inaugural running of the Breeders Cup at Hollywood Park. The saddle towel had been printed but they had not yet drawn numbers. If you recall, he hurt himself working out 3-4 days prior and was retired after putting up the money to run. I have half of the saddle towel. My very close old friend was the racing sec. at Hollywood that year and tore it down the middle from front to back where the saddle would sit, so he and I each have 1/2 a piece of history. He has since passed away but thought I would share it with you. It's folded in half so the blank part that you cannot see would have been where the number would have been sewn.

[str]

Good question here. If I understand you correctly, you are asking why the horse ran 1:11 and won the race for 5k but at 8k the winning time was 1:11 and the horse was really distant. A lot of times when you are dealing with cheap claimers, particularly older horses with a lot of career starts, a horse can run lights out (at least for the level) then come back 2 weeks later and just circle around the track. You can consider a few things here. Is this a speed horse that got an easy lead in the first race but couldn't get a lead in the class hike? You mention eye contact...that could be a factor. If the horse looks down another horse, he/she may immediately back off. Other horses will not put forth the best effort until they are engaged with another horse. So if the horse had the lead in the 5k race and was clear the whole way but was in between other horses in the 8k race, he may have just backed off.

Lots of variables here which makes it so difficult to handicap these lower level races. One thing you have to note is the track/circuit itself. A 1k class hike at a dogshit track is significant where a hike from 8k to 10 or 12k at a bigger circuit track may essentially be the same group but the horse needed to find conditions that would fit.

I would agree with most of this. The important thing to make sure you know from track to track is what I call the declensions of the claiming ranks. Cheaper tracks will maybe have 2.5k, 3.5k, 5k, 6.250k , 7.5k, 10k etc. Basically 25% more for each level. More quality tracks will offer claiming races with a broader gap between amounts with the bottom being 10 or 12k. Too some degree the bottom is the bottom so if a 12k claimer from Belmont ships down and runs at Laurel where 12k is the 5th rung of the ladder, that 12k horse from N.Y. will often times struggle. The betting public does not seem to think so the NY horse will get a lot of money but from my experience, the local horse with solid form at that price will beat the shipper more times than not. That's how it used to be. Can't say for sure today. My market these days is real estate.
Hope that helps.

[getthatheadup]

Wow str, better answer than I could have hoped for! First off your statement that u felt my question was more from a horsemans standpoint rather than a handicappers was spot on! As a handicapper I have learned how to have the mentality of why ask why but I have always wanted to ask a horseman this question.Funny I almost knew part of your response would be that nobody really has the answer and this was confirmed by all the great minds of this sport whom you "picked the brains of". Perhaps the simplest part of your rejoinder is that the mere presence of certain horses in the gate is enough for the faint of heart to throw in the towel before said gate opens.Hence a direct and simple reason regarding my statement of how some horses are never involved when placed in higher class races. This despite the fact you feel said horse has the physical ability to compete.

Newbies the sooner you grasp the above the better. Does this mean that I dont play horses moving up in class? Absolutely not! One of my favorite things to watch for is common races. Lets say a horse has made his way through all conditions and is running in open company. He runs his normal style (ie stalks 3or4 lengths off the leader) however in the stretch he does not have his usual punch and ends up 7 lengths back.Now lets say hes entered against the winner of the last race. Its amazing to me how many times said winner is odds on and the new kid is double digits. Ive cashed many a ticket this way. Conversely if a horse,regardless of form or ability, has been beat by the same horse on several occasions, you better believe one horse has the others number.

Str, thanks again kind sir. When it comes to class you are cut from triple crown cloth!

It just occurred to me that we make this way to complicated. The answer is a question. How do animals know to hibernate? How do homing pigeons find their way home? lastly how do the lucky stallions sent to stud know how to%&^$%?

[getthatheadup]

Sorry folks I wanted to elaborate on my example of a horse moving to open claimers. I strongly believe that horses must learn from new situations far above the obvious. (ie 2 turn race, maiden debut). In the example above he or she while being beat by 7 lengths was not disgraced IMO. If said horse has class he or she may simply learn that they must step up their game to compete and at a square price I feel they have earned a shot with my money.

[getthatheadup]

Str,

In another thread,through the petty rhetoric of another poster, a legitimate point was made.How can money be made in rock bottom racing? Lets say we are talking 5k to 12k claimers running for 8k to 12k purses.With the understanding that certain expenses are fixed,ie; grooms,exercise riders,and to some extent feed and vet bills,it seems difficult if not impossible to grind out a profit.Excluding shrewd trainers who can find enough horses to step up to allowances or higher level claimers could one make it staying primarily in this range?

Lets set up an hypothetical scenario...Lets say someone of your experience was lucky enough to come up with 100k. Could you reasonably expect to acquire enough horses in this price range,leave enough money for operating cost and grind out a living of lets say 50k a year. (assuming you were owner/trainer?)

[cutchemist42]

Welcome to the forum and thank you for all the kind words.

You sure did ask a million dollar question and one very close to my heart for your 1st one. This question is one that I must have asked 50 different people in my early days on the track. But I asked the older guys not the guys my age. From old grooms , vets, blacksmiths, and once I was a trainer and had access to other trainers and jocks, I asked a bunch of them also. Because the google years are upon us, I won't name drop full names but some last names that I asked that you would probably know include, H. Clark, S. Hine, J. Tammaro Sr., B. Delp ( when he finally started talking too me. That story is in this thread),B. Bond, and a lot more. I even asked Eddie Sweat, Secretariats groom, 2 nights before the Preakness. I asked the racing secretary's, Abundi and Raffeto, jocks like Passmore, Bracciale, Davidson,MacBeth,Perret and Imparato. Tried to ask the Shoe the one time I was able to ride him on a horse I trained but friggin Cossell screwed that up( that's in this thread also). I even asked Pincay when I was a groom for my mentor on the way to the track from the paddock on Preakness or B.E.Susan day, can't remember, while leading him out to the track. I am pretty sure he thought I was crazy. Lol. But the fact that your exact question was the one I chose to ask in one minute tells you just how important that question was too me. For many of these people it seemed to really stump them. There is no clear cut answer. But there were indeed opinions that led me to my conclusion and honestly helped form me in to a trainer that was not a conventional type but one that thought a little differently than most. Not sure if that was a good thing or not . I was told by some that I was a goofy Gemini and left handed so what do you expect. Lol. And while I don't really believe all that stuff, I would not have had it any other way.

Mr. Clark, a HOFer and an old groom who left quite an impression on me when I 1st came on the track probably gave the best answers. Mr. Clark said something to the effect that the answer lied within each individual and when asked for it , they would fully deliver or have no interest in it. Mr. Barry, the groom, said something like, just like people,class shows in subtle ways. He said, just look at a horses stall at 5 am each morning. The horses with class will have things still in order while the ones that don't will have crapped where they eat. Both were right as were others because I don't think a wrong answer truly exists. Nobody really knows exactly, for sure, the answer.

As a handicapper, you do not have access to all that I mentioned so let me summarize all that I put together after asking this for probably 4-5 years .

More often than not, a 5k type horse will fail when asked to step up. But for those that do not, look for these clues. In no particular order.

Check the breeding and see if the sire was a faint hearted , oh well, I will get em next time type or a blood and guts fighter type that never gives up. That is not that hard to figure out if you know the more popular sires past accomplishments. And while you will never get it right all the time, you will often enough or at least a sense of it. It would be darn near impossible to know the mares but they can also influence this. So if you do know a particular mare, all the better.

Look to see if the horse once had any back class to begin with, that is, did this horse accomplish things once upon a time and if the horse gets happy, can he climb the ladder somewhat before the added pressure on it's body aggravates an old injury or creates a new one, thus hampering climbing further up the ladder. The clue here will be the trainer keeping the horse at the same level or even dropping it back slightly. In most cases, the mental is still there and the horse will continue to grind and run very well. But once they lose, that might be it for a while. Not always, but many more times than not IMO.

Watch the post parade and look for the horse that might stand stoically and view the surroundings when it turns to gallop or jog off. See if the jock allows this to happen. If the rider does, it is a sign of respect and more times than not, the horse will run very well.

If you know the horse well, maybe they have added some weight and their coat looks much better. Changing barns to a new trainer and new diet and training routine can definitely get a horse happy. Or being reunited with a jockey that brought out the best previously. Blks. on or a change in distance, usually a stretch out can certainly do the trick. But at the end of the day, it's all about the horse being happy and really enjoying the competition.



Now I know that plenty will read this and say, c'mon man, who has time for all this stuff? For Christ's sake just bet . But remember, you asked a specific question that too me, is a horseman's question more so than a handicapping question. All the Beyers in the world can't touch this answer. Many of the quality people I asked could not really answer this exact question without studdering or falling all over their words. And the reason why is exactly what H. Clark, who I shared my first barn with back in 76 at Pimlico said. It's within each individual horse to answer and we won't really know until it's too late. With that said, it's up to each bettor to just say too hell with it or try and find the subtle clues to come up with the answer.

Yes, the good ones are also more times than not, the smart ones and the hamming it up is a sure sign of class. They are basically saying, I own this place . This is MY track. Welcome too it everyone.

The answer indeed does lie where you thought it did. It is the eye contact often enough but it took me years and years to see through a horses eye and try to reach their sole. And there are many people that are much better at it than I ever was. The real good horses usually had it. Again,back in this thread, is the Ruffian story I told and her eyes. Pretty sure those eyes were one of the reasons I became a trainer. Simply like nothing i had ever seen before and I will never forget them.

The grunting and loud noises no. It's not that.

As for times, because of soooo many things that can affect time, don't try and look at it like " the horse ran 1:11 so it can do it again against better. The old race track atage that time only matters when your in jail is pretty accurate. So don't go there. If you want to compare times, compare the first quarter or the 1/2 mile time but only at the same track because the run up before the clock can change from track to track so the same horse that cuts 22:1 at Monmouth can only cut 23:1 at Pimlico. It is running just as fast but the clock is starting after 10 feet instead of 30 feet. Hope that makes sense.

While pace can certainly be a factor in horses moving up, it seems you have that understanding down pat so when all else has been excluded, look within the individual and see if it existed before an injury or downturn. If it did, it is still in there but the horse needs to be in a positive frame of mind for that to surface.

I firmly believe that when some over matched horses get into the gate with better horses, they can sense it and within 5 strides out of the gate, they realize that they just cannot compete. So they never really give all they could because they are mentally defeated before they know what hit them. This also holds true with people sometimes. Horses do not know much, but they sure as hell know about competition and just like humans, without the proper physique, they are done before they start.

I sure hope all of this has helped answer a question that is not only close to my heart but was a question that I watched many many great horseman fumble all over the place. It was their fumbling that helped me better understand it and hopefully help you and others with it as well.

So while you might thank me for the answer I want to thank you for asking it. It allowed me to wander back in my minds eye and remember and visualize some of the best times of my life. I hope you and others can enjoy this thread as much as I enjoy sharing my times with you.

Hope to hear from you again.

What an amazing read.

[str]

Str,

In another thread,through the petty rhetoric of another poster, a legitimate point was made.How can money be made in rock bottom racing? Lets say we are talking 5k to 12k claimers running for 8k to 12k purses.With the understanding that certain expenses are fixed,ie; grooms,exercise riders,and to some extent feed and vet bills,it seems difficult if not impossible to grind out a profit.Excluding shrewd trainers who can find enough horses to step up to allowances or higher level claimers could one make it staying primarily in this range?

Lets set up an hypothetical scenario...Lets say someone of your experience was lucky enough to come up with 100k. Could you reasonably expect to acquire enough horses in this price range,leave enough money for operating cost and grind out a living of lets say 50k a year. (assuming you were owner/trainer?)

Q. How can money be made in rock bottom racing?

A. I spoke about this way back in the thread. In particular, it was about how race fixing at low level tracks with extremely small purses almost had to happen to some extent for people to survive. This was before the simulcasting era when 2000 claimers had a winners share of 800.00. After 20% going out to the trainer and jock( 10% each) there was not enough left to pay the feed man. So, you can see why it fed itself somewhat IMO.

Q. Lets say we are talking 5k to 12k claimers running for 8k to 12k purses.With the understanding that certain expenses are fixed,ie; grooms,exercise riders,and to some extent feed and vet bills,it seems difficult if not impossible to grind out a profit.

A. For an owner, it is very tough but if they are determined to not lose money, they might not. The question is, can they actually make any? Maybe, but not much unless lightning strikes. Certainly not enough to have tied up your total investment and think that this was the best place to have your money work for you.
So from an investment approach, I could recommend many more ways to make money than this one. But the fact is, that most owners that participate are not looking to make a profit. They are hopeful of one, but not banking on it. It is their form of entertainment that they can afford and it should be looked upon as just that. The hope that they could make a big splash is always prevalent but the reality needs to be understood beforehand or they are only fooling themselves.

Q.Excluding shrewd trainers who can find enough horses to step up to allowances or higher level claimers could one make it staying primarily in this range?

A. Having a quality trainer would be very important to me. Easier said than done because you don't want to be an after thought to a quality trainer instead of being a forethought to a lesser one. Because I know the game, this would be much easier for me than the typical owner so it is difficult if not impossible for them, and I understand that. But learning as you go and having the willingness to learn and improve are a must if you , as an owner, are going to be successful. This does NOT mean, firing trainers and bouncing around. It means putting in your time if indeed you strive for success. Just like owning a business. Keep an open mind and attention to detail, or pay the long term price associated with it, for not.

Q. Lets set up an hypothetical scenario...Lets say someone of your experience was lucky enough to come up with 100k. Could you reasonably expect to acquire enough horses in this price range,leave enough money for operating cost and grind out a living of lets say 50k a year. (assuming you were owner/trainer?)

A. With 100k, providing that 100k was money that would not ruin you if it was tied up or eventually lost some of it before getting out, my advise would be to find a very solid, reputable trainer and be hands on with the purchasing of horses. You better trust the trainer though, or you are likely doomed from the start. If you are going to be an owner/trainer you will need more than that IMO.

To do it right ,IMO, you would need closer to 300k. I say this because it is really tough to be a trainer of 6-12 horses. Getting the proper help, that is, good grooms, solid reputable vets, an above average blacksmith, pay for quality feed, not the cheap stuff loaded with dust, and the working materials necessary to do the job correctly. Making weekly payroll, or decisions that would effect the horse, cannot be driven by a few bucks. They are your athletes, and to compromise them in any way, is to compromise your investment.
Having 2 riders that you pay a salary that are YOUR riders, not freelancers that gallop by the head and run from barn to barn is the only way to go IMO. Without the proper number of horses, you cannot pay the salaries necessary to have your own riders. And you need two so that you can train horses in company( in sets of two) when necessary. Too me, that is HUGE. Having had both types, by necessity driven by the amount of horses I had and or cash flow at the time, there is no doubt about this. You simply cannot train , in my eyes, properly, and make the decisions required for the type of care needed to strive to be better than most, if money has ANYTHING to do with it.

And a 50k a year profit, with 300k invested is a terrible ROI, to say nothing of the daily work involved. I could properly invest that 300k, with minimal or no risk and work at 7-11 and make almost twice that, right?

Again, somewhere in this thread was an admission on my behalf, that towards the end of my career, I was appalled at the way I was running my operation. It was not the money as much as it was the "lost edge", mentally, that had come over me. Probably half a dozen things drove this.
In sports competition, if you lose that edge even slightly, and you were, or your numbers you put up were, better than average, you will quickly find yourself , and or , your numbers, way down. It is a razors edge difference and it takes money, dedication, and a drive to succeed every minute of every day,to have any chance at success. For years and years, I had that, but when I was challenged to have it, it was time to retire and find something else. Those challenges were in the form of my family, my time away, drugs within the game, a changing climate within the game, and so forth, plenty of which I have spoken to within this growing thread. In hind sight, it was the best decision, as well as the most difficult decision, I ever made.

All this is not to say that you cannot be an owner at a lesser track with a couple of horses and turn a profit. You certainly can. But with the specific question you asked, it would only work the way I laid it out, at least IMO.

Hope that helps.

[cutchemist42]

As a big replay watcher, I was wondering about a few scenarios and how to view them.

-3 way duel in a sprint, would you rather be the outside, middle, or inside horse?
-Jockey trying to rate a horse that clearly is a lead horse racing for that lead and jock switch next race.
-A horse that is 3-4 wide is not in a bad trip, but simply not talented enough to find another gear to get out of that situation? Heard that said once and was wondering if there's any truth to that thinking.

[str]

As a big replay watcher, I was wondering about a few scenarios and how to view them.

-3 way duel in a sprint, would you rather be the outside, middle, or inside horse?
-Jockey trying to rate a horse that clearly is a lead horse racing for that lead and jock switch next race.
-A horse that is 3-4 wide is not in a bad trip, but simply not talented enough to find another gear to get out of that situation? Heard that said once and was wondering if there's any truth to that thinking.

Glad to hear you watch replay's. What a great way to better understand what is really going on.

Q. -3 way duel in a sprint, would you rather be the outside, middle, or inside horse?

A. Assuming they are nose and nose down the backside ,the middle takes the worst of it no doubt. But as they approach the turn, the inside horse will need to get a head in front if possible. This is about changing leads and area inside vanishing. I spoke about this maybe a page or 2 or 3 back in depth. All things being equal, the outside horse , especially with a head in front, holds the advantage because it can put pressure on the inside 2 horses. Yes, it will lose some ground, but the trip is easier.
Next time you find yourself on a beltway if you drive in a big city, try driving in between 2 cars as big or bigger than you. You will typically drive much more defensive. Both horse and rider feel this as they approach the turn. If you are inside and they get just in front of you on a left turn around the beltway, you will also be uncomfortable and typically accelerate or slow down to get out of that spot. It's just not a comfortable place to drive. Well, the horse feels the same way, only this time, when they switch leads to the left lead, those 3 lanes go down to 2 lanes. Something has to give and it's usually the inside horse.
Usually, jocks down inside or in between, will move early or take back because they know it's coming. Watch for that .

Q. -Jockey trying to rate a horse that clearly is a lead horse racing for that lead and jock switch next race.

A. That can either be a sit still style rider that wants off, or a trainer that wanted a better ride. So it depends on who the rider is sometimes. It can also depend on who the trainer is. I mean, leading rider, no name trainer? Or vice versa. Take that into consideration as well.
Chances are, if you watch replays, you know who the different types of riders are. If so, you are all over it. If not, try and learn whose who in the jockey colony as to speed jock or sit still jock if possible.

Q. -A horse that is 3-4 wide is not in a bad trip, but simply not talented enough to find another gear to get out of that situation? Heard that said once and was wondering if there's any truth to that thinking.

A.Certainly sometimes that is correct but there is no clear cut answer for every time, so there is some truth to that. Sometimes the rider puts the horse there. Big Brown was put 3-4 wide in the Belmont right? But... once he went down the backside, Kent had no horse, so in that case it was both the rider finding the spot and then the horse not having anything left in the tank.
Post position also plays a huge roll and now and then, a horse just does not like being inside ( remember Orb in the Preakness)? He was just not happy there was he. Had he been 3-4 wide, maybe he fires some more but yes, they were walking up front.

A 3-4 wide trip is not all that bad. Yes , you lose ground, but the trip is easy to navigate so there is good and bad within that type of trip. Remember, you only lose ground on 3-4 wide trips around turns not straightaways. So if they saved a bit of ground around the 1st turn and then eased out, that is better than losing ground on both turns . Same holds for one turn races. If they save a little around the turn and fan outside as they straighten away for home, there really is not that much actual ground lost.

So I think that it is a case by case answer. And of course, if 3-4 wide, you have to make sure there was no crazy bias, be it inside and the horse ran poorly or outside bias and the horse ran great. Sometimes that takes hindsight to figure out but at least you have it noted for next time.

Hope that helps.

[getthatheadup]

Str,

First off please indulge me as i take the soap box. I came to this section of sbr in part because unlike other genres within this site, most posters are considerate and respectful. I almost feel guilty when I ask you questions because I know you take a lot of time from your present vocation with lengthy responses. Joey,jbex,ginandtonic,and mikemca spend time on top of their capping to share information with us.Then there is biggie who some feel the need to piss on his parade simply for trying to share some success with us. To all the above, as well as others that contribute in a positive way, thank you.( If you have not seen it some of you might appreciate a quote I used from Theo Roosevelt in biggies thread titled a good day at the horse track) To the antagonists, you sometimes bring up valid points, if you would try and be more civil in your posts I feel we could all benefit. O.K. im off,on to the question.

Str, sorry if you have addressed this issue.(still working my way through this amazing thread) "Fixing" has been the the term used by the before mentioned antagonists recently. It is my firm opinion that illegal drugs are the most common form of larceny in this industry.I have seen you comment on this issue many times and am sure as I read further will find more. If ever there was a trainer I felt was "juicing" horses there is one I am highly suspicious of.(for fear of slander I wont list his name) This guy hit the scene at Mountaineer in the early 200's. Wish I had some specific examples but a scenario would be something like this: horse has not won in 2 years, nothing in running lines to show any sign of life( ie; no middle move,change of pace, carry speed further than usual) Horse been running in 5k, runs him in allowance..BAM wins.. By the time I caught on his horses went from 30 to 50 boxcar to odds on.Odd, most of his horses were not picked up through the claim. Even more odd, as I keep tabs on him from time to time, he continues to do the same and his horses are rarely claimed! He cashes many a purse(up and down the ladder) but even at the lower level they are not claimed.This makes me even more suspicious, as if other trainers think he juices them and dont want to resort to this to win.( or maybe they dont think they can get away with it)

So the questions? Are there drugs that can make that big of a difference on a consistent bases? With the understanding that the stewards have to be watching these results, could one continually mask results of drug tests? I know you ran the time and circuit that enabled you to see the likes of King Leathurbury. Hence you have seen some remarkable things. I understand it is hard for you to comment without knowing the specifics of this trainer, however i feel certain you have seen the same scenario many times. ( said trainer still going strong.runs limited races and is owner/trainer.)

As always thank you kind sir!

[getthatheadup]

Post-script to above. Was not indicating that Leathurbury was guilty of mentioned infractions but rather stating that some trainers are aces in turning horses around in legit fashion.

[str]

Str,

First off please indulge me as i take the soap box. I came to this section of sbr in part because unlike other genres within this site, most posters are considerate and respectful. I almost feel guilty when I ask you questions because I know you take a lot of time from your present vocation with lengthy responses. Joey,jbex,ginandtonic,and mikemca spend time on top of their capping to share information with us.Then there is biggie who some feel the need to piss on his parade simply for trying to share some success with us. To all the above, as well as others that contribute in a positive way, thank you.( If you have not seen it some of you might appreciate a quote I used from Theo Roosevelt in biggies thread titled a good day at the horse track) To the antagonists, you sometimes bring up valid points, if you would try and be more civil in your posts I feel we could all benefit. O.K. im off,on to the question.

Str, sorry if you have addressed this issue.(still working my way through this amazing thread) "Fixing" has been the the term used by the before mentioned antagonists recently. It is my firm opinion that illegal drugs are the most common form of larceny in this industry.I have seen you comment on this issue many times and am sure as I read further will find more. If ever there was a trainer I felt was "juicing" horses there is one I am highly suspicious of.(for fear of slander I wont list his name) This guy hit the scene at Mountaineer in the early 200's. Wish I had some specific examples but a scenario would be something like this: horse has not won in 2 years, nothing in running lines to show any sign of life( ie; no middle move,change of pace, carry speed further than usual) Horse been running in 5k, runs him in allowance..BAM wins.. By the time I caught on his horses went from 30 to 50 boxcar to odds on.Odd, most of his horses were not picked up through the claim. Even more odd, as I keep tabs on him from time to time, he continues to do the same and his horses are rarely claimed! He cashes many a purse(up and down the ladder) but even at the lower level they are not claimed.This makes me even more suspicious, as if other trainers think he juices them and dont want to resort to this to win.( or maybe they dont think they can get away with it)

So the questions? Are there drugs that can make that big of a difference on a consistent bases? With the understanding that the stewards have to be watching these results, could one continually mask results of drug tests? I know you ran the time and circuit that enabled you to see the likes of King Leathurbury. Hence you have seen some remarkable things. I understand it is hard for you to comment without knowing the specifics of this trainer, however i feel certain you have seen the same scenario many times. ( said trainer still going strong.runs limited races and is owner/trainer.)

As always thank you kind sir!

Testing has come a LONG LONG way since the late 80s and into the 90s when trainers with career low % suddenly became Ben Jones over night. Yes, it was disgusting for fans but believe me, it was just as disgusting for people in the game that tried to play it right. Talk about frustrating !

I do not know who this guy is, but thankfully, it is really tough from what I hear to be a juicer trainer these days and get away with it for very long.

As you read through this thread you will hear me talk about all this plenty often enough and I will be glad to try and go into more exact detail on any particular question if after reading all this, I have not answered it well enough for you to better understand it.

As for the claiming of this guys horses, without knowing the type of horse and the conditions the horse is winning under, it is tough to answer. At a lot of the smaller tracks, they run nw/6months, then nw/2 in 6 months and then open claiming. It is tough to claim these " beaten" type horses because if they win the day you claim them, they are no longer eligible for the condition and in theory, will be stepping up in class next out, even if the claiming price is the same. So without knowing the details it would be unfair of me to accuse without at least having a hint of proof.
Also, some times, and I have no idea if this pertains or not, at a lesser venue, a trainer can just out spend the others with better help, work ethic, training skills, and have the money to wheel and deal, that is, take chances and drop sound horses drastically in price for easy wins. Then improve others and next thing you know, the opposition is so confused they mostly say screw it, I am not fooling with this guy. They are intimidated. Does not happen that often, but I have seen it happen often enough to know that it can be done, especially at lesser tracks where the horsemanship may not be as solid across the board as it would be at a bigger track.( big fish , small pond). But without knowing more, I am just stabbing.
The juicer term is overused these days, but who can blame anyone after the darn near 2 decades of complete B.S. that went on. And IMO it went on everywhere. Especially in N.Y. where they so stoically stated to the public that they only ran on hay and oats up there. They almost ran out of refrigerator box cars storing Oscar B.'s urine samples. What a joke. I go into a bit more detail about N.Y.in here, you will see it. And it is not what I heard, it is what I saw and experienced. Sad reality though is that the vast majority of trainers were soooo clean and respected the game so much that this juicing behavior would never even cross there mind. But for those few that abused it, it gave racing a black eye they are still trying to overcome. So I don't expect the juicing talk to go away any time soon and I guess it probably shouldn't. However, what N.Y. did to Ricky D. was criminal IMO. Collateral damage I suppose they view it as, showing the public they intend to clean up the sport. And while he brought a lot of it on himself, he was no juicer, and I can guarantee you that.

As for the exact questions:

Q. Are there drugs that can make that big of a difference on a consistent bases?

A. Yes, but these days, the testing has caught up to those drugs. Never completely caught up as a new one might show up , but it doesn't take very long to figure out what's up these days. It used to take forever.

Q. With the understanding that the stewards have to be watching these results, could one continually mask results of drug tests?

A. It's the state chemist that is watching and always has been, but as stated, testing has caught up with the crooks nowadays so I would feel comfortable in saying that very little is gotten away with these days. The chemists have caught on to the masking by combining drugs and the tracks have spent a ton of money for newer and more high powered testing equipment and from what I am told, they constantly upgrade these days, whereas back when, they did not, thus, the loophole in the system.

Q. I know you ran the time and circuit that enabled you to see the likes of King Leathurbury. Hence you have seen some remarkable things. I understand it is hard for you to comment without knowing the specifics of this trainer, however i feel certain you have seen the same scenario many times.

A. King, Bud, Dickie, Big John , known as the big 4, were all squeeky clean when it came to illegal drugs. If anyone would know that, it would be me. I was one of the two asst. trainer's for R.E.D. in 1975 when he broke the world record for wins with 352.

As for the scenario, sadly yes, I did see it too often. That's in here also. I just hated it, and as Bart Giamatti said, "it stained the game" .

Things are much much better today then they were then. I am sure of that.

[cutchemist42]

Hey str, another question I was wondering if you have experience with. Tracks like Northlands, Hastings, CT that are running 2 turn sprints around 6furlongs, what are the dynamics of post position in general in these races? Or say slightly bigger tracks like Asd or Delta where 2 turn routes end up having a big leadup to the first turn.