Wouldn't be without either if I'm honest. Put more volume through Betfair for ease, but Pinnies do have some great odds.
Pinnacle v Betfair
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ZakSBR High Roller
- 10-20-10
- 102
#36Comment -
odysseusSBR High Roller
- 11-30-09
- 134
#37BF comm is usually lower than 5% too
I suspect that not enough punters have yet learned how to really make the most of exchanges in that they simply look at the odds currently available to back their choice.
If you are leaving it to the death, then you probably have no other option but if you allow yourself plenty of time and are able to monitor the position, exchange markets become more mature and closer to 100% so you will very often be able to obtain a reasonable margin in excess of say Pinnacle's odds if you put in an offer on the exchange.Comment -
Hareeba!BARRELED IN @ SBR!
- 07-01-06
- 37250
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acwSBR Wise Guy
- 08-29-05
- 576
#39Even if BF is close to a 100% market the comm is 5% of winnings unless you put a lot of money thru' them and get a discount. If you do a lot of trading on lots of markets, and end up winning, you stand a chance of being liable for premium charges. My point is that the sum of charges for BF is generally more than paying the Pinny lowish juice IMO
Sad thing about BetFair is that due to their commission structure (different from Matchbook) in order to use it optimally one simply has to trade. I refuse to do that and as such I do not bet on BetFair.Comment -
Hareeba!BARRELED IN @ SBR!
- 07-01-06
- 37250
#40
I don't trade but I do use Betfair a lot. I do so because I can extract better (net) prices very frequently (not always) than elsewhere, including Pinnacle.
I do agree that their commission is relatively high but if you are a regular there you can bring it way down below 5% and then their odds become more than competitive with the best alternative sites. For US sports it is certainly less useful than Matchbook, where again you can almost always beat Pinnacle's prices.
But I again stress that players need to learn how to use exchanges more efficiently by putting up their own offers to obtain better prices.Comment -
JC_GUFCSBR Rookie
- 10-21-10
- 14
#41When looking at Betfair, do you look only at what's currently on offer or do you place bids for the price you would like to get?
I don't trade but I do use Betfair a lot. I do so because I can extract better (net) prices very frequently (not always) than elsewhere, including Pinnacle.
I probably should use betfair/betdaq more for putting up bids but with accounts at SBO, 12bet, Pinnacle and most UK firms I can nearly always get the betfair price even ignoring comissionComment -
TomahawkSBR Sharp
- 04-24-10
- 358
#42I like betfair for UK horse racing and EU sports. I only play at pinnacle when I bet on American sports.Comment -
StefanSBR MVP
- 03-21-09
- 3481
#43That's not the only danger. What do you do if the line moves in the wrong direction? To get a better price at Betfair than at the Asians you mostly have to ask for a much better price than current offered. Without a line move at the Asians this bet wouldn't be matched.Comment -
tommygunSBR MVP
- 07-01-10
- 2239
#46IMHO betfair is all you could need if you were a serious bettor, best live markets, options of trading, locking in a profit, best odds guaranteed for horse racing and grey hound racing, normally higher odds than other books in most markets, good customer service, fast payout, lots of different markets to bet on. Love the high odds.BETTING EXCHANGES, easy money.
Soccer Tipping: 5-0-1
Comment -
cochiseSBR Rookie
- 03-30-09
- 13
#47IMHO betfair is all you could need if you were a serious bettor, best live markets, options of trading, locking in a profit, best odds guaranteed for horse racing and grey hound racing, normally higher odds than other books in most markets, good customer service, fast payout, lots of different markets to bet on. Love the high odds.
Tommy, in your expirience; if one was to be a fulltime trader at betfair, which is the best adviceable way to fund/withdraw from betfair ?Comment -
StefanSBR MVP
- 03-21-09
- 3481
#48IMHO betfair is all you could need if you were a serious bettor, best live markets, options of trading, locking in a profit, best odds guaranteed for horse racing and grey hound racing, normally higher odds than other books in most markets, good customer service, fast payout, lots of different markets to bet on. Love the high odds.
Velez Sarsfield - Estudiantes ------------ Game starts in 2 hours.
Betfair 2.06 (without fee) volume 50 EUR
Pinnacle 2.04
12BET 2.04
188BET 2.041
SBOBET 2.07
The odds of every asian bookie are better than the odds at Betfair.Comment -
kiwiSBR Wise Guy
- 08-11-05
- 674
#49
You could add the greedy behaviour of Betfair in general (also apart from the premium charges - look for example how the commission structure changed over the years) and the arrogant and incompetent customer service.Comment -
Hareeba!BARRELED IN @ SBR!
- 07-01-06
- 37250
#50I can't agree with that. The odds for soccer bets are mostly worse than at the asian bookies. For example:
Velez Sarsfield - Estudiantes ------------ Game starts in 2 hours.
Betfair 2.06 (without fee) volume 50 EUR
Pinnacle 2.04
12BET 2.04
188BET 2.041
SBOBET 2.07
The odds of every asian bookie are better than the odds at Betfair.
you've selected an example of a low profile game about to start when most Poms (most of Betfair's customers) are sleeping
it's not the case for major leagues / games
as I've said repeatedly you don't just look at what's on offer at Betfair .. ask for more within reason and every likelihood you'll get it, but you have to have the time to monitor it - you can't do that at the books you've mentionedComment -
Hareeba!BARRELED IN @ SBR!
- 07-01-06
- 37250
#51yeah perhaps all true but despite it, Betfair remains #1 overall for punters who don't predominately bet US sports.Comment -
OMGRandyJacksonSBR MVP
- 02-07-10
- 1680
#52Hey guys, just curious what do you mean when you say "Betfair has liquidity problems at some markets (european basketball, handball, volleyball etc.)"?Comment -
Hareeba!BARRELED IN @ SBR!
- 07-01-06
- 37250
#53simply insufficient interest in it amongst Betfair customers to ensure a mature market will develop and thus if you wish to bet serious money you'll not likely be fully accommodated there or obtain a fair priceComment -
ChopsticksSBR MVP
- 06-30-09
- 1057
#54Not that it really matters much in this discussion, but http://www.egrmagazine.com/news/5939...schecker.thtml is slightly interesting.
"The Stoke-based operator achieved a market share of 16.3% in September, widening the gap to Betfair, which accounted for 12.7% of market clicks on the site. The Stoke-based operator has now topped the list for seven successive months. "
1. Bet365 16.3%
2. Betfair 12.7%
3. Stan James 9.8%
4. Ladbrokes 9.5%
5. Paddy Power 8.5%
6. William Hill 6.8%
7. SkyBet 5.3%
8. V Chandler 5.0%
9. Coral 4.6%
10. Betfred 4.6%
If people click through from an odds comparison website then chances are that they have more accounts (why else use that site?) and that a lot of the time they click on the biggest price. Bet365 have beaten betfair several times already this year. Of course, this is probably because of various promotions like best odds guaranteed, bonuses and so on (betfair also have that but still...), and maybe also because of the brand name.Comment -
OMGRandyJacksonSBR MVP
- 02-07-10
- 1680
#55Ahhh i see i see. Thank you Hareeba!Comment -
kiwiSBR Wise Guy
- 08-11-05
- 674
#56Comment -
Hareeba!BARRELED IN @ SBR!
- 07-01-06
- 37250
#57Not that it really matters much in this discussion, but http://www.egrmagazine.com/news/5939...schecker.thtml is slightly interesting.
"The Stoke-based operator achieved a market share of 16.3% in September, widening the gap to Betfair, which accounted for 12.7% of market clicks on the site. The Stoke-based operator has now topped the list for seven successive months. "
1. Bet365 16.3%
2. Betfair 12.7%
3. Stan James 9.8%
4. Ladbrokes 9.5%
5. Paddy Power 8.5%
6. William Hill 6.8%
7. SkyBet 5.3%
8. V Chandler 5.0%
9. Coral 4.6%
10. Betfred 4.6%
If people click through from an odds comparison website then chances are that they have more accounts (why else use that site?) and that a lot of the time they click on the biggest price. Bet365 have beaten betfair several times already this year. Of course, this is probably because of various promotions like best odds guaranteed, bonuses and so on (betfair also have that but still...), and maybe also because of the brand name.
I'd suggest that Betfair users on the whole are more sophisticated punters than those who select by clicking on a site from one of those services.Comment -
ChopsticksSBR MVP
- 06-30-09
- 1057
#58That's interesting but not sure what one can really glean from it. There's no way they can measure the relative value of bets placed as a result of all that clicking.
I'd suggest that Betfair users on the whole are more sophisticated punters than those who select by clicking on a site from one of those services.
But I am not sure I agree that a Betfair user is more sophisticated as a punter than someone who uses an odds comparison website. They would by definition be looking for the best value/odds and they don't religiously stick to Betfair or Bet365 or Pinnacle. That is the correct way of going about it in my opinion. I almost always check an odds comparison website and almost always the odds are better in other places than Betfair. Of course this is not because other books have better odds, but because they are just slow to move.
This has nothing to do with BF vs Pin but just an observation. In my opinion one of the asians (not just the main ones + pinnacle) will always have same/better odds than Betfair. That is why I rarely use Betfair.Comment -
SawyerSBR Hall of Famer
- 06-01-09
- 7761
#59
In fact, it's absurd to compare Pinnacle and Betfair. Pinnacle is a sportsbook. Betfair is a betting exchange, more trading oriented. You can't lay horses at Pinnacle. If you like to make scalping/trading, Betfair is your best bet. If you like to place straight wagers, go to Pinnacle.Comment -
Hareeba!BARRELED IN @ SBR!
- 07-01-06
- 37250
#60Originally posted by Chopsticks;701***3
But I am not sure I agree that a Betfair user is more sophisticated as a punter than someone who uses an odds comparison website. They would by definition be looking for the best value/odds and they don't religiously stick to Betfair or Bet365 or Pinnacle. That is the correct way of going about it in my opinion. I almost always check an odds comparison website and almost always the odds are better in other places than Betfair. Of course this is not because other books have better odds, but because they are just slow to move.
I religiously use odds comparison services but can't recall the last time I clicked on one to load a bookie site.
When I'm working, I already have them all loaded and I'd expect a huge proportion of Betfair users would do likewise
Originally posted by Chopsticks;701***3This has nothing to do with BF vs Pin but just an observation. In my opinion one of the asians (not just the main ones + pinnacle) will always have same/better odds than Betfair. That is why I rarely use Betfair.
it is seeming more and more obvious that people have yet to learn how to use exchanges to there optimumComment -
Hareeba!BARRELED IN @ SBR!
- 07-01-06
- 37250
#61
I too place most of my soccer bets at the Asians and PinnacleComment -
ChopsticksSBR MVP
- 06-30-09
- 1057
#62
Tottenham - Everton
BF, you can take 2.08, queue for 2.10. If you get 2.10 for $100 then you win $104.5.
12bet, 2.09 is available, bet $100 and win $109.
(Pinnacle 2.06 but still better than betfair)
For a bet on Everton you will earn $10 if you successfully queue, if else then pinnacle is better for about $1.
A draw bet is best with Pinnacle at 3.48, you can queue for 3.50 with Betfair. Pinnacle is better by $10 if you successfully queue.
Chelsea - Wolves
A bet on Chelsea is worth maybe 50c more at pinnacle than at betfair.
A bet on Wolves is worth a massive $1000-ish more at betfair if you successfully queue.
the draw is worth about $5 more at betfair if you can queue. 188bet is the best option with +$15 over betfair.
Sunderland - Villa
Sunderland - Even if you queue, pinnacle is still better by about $4. Other asians slightly better.
Aston Villa is better by about 50c if you successfully queue.
Pinnacle is better by about $1.50 on the draw even if you queue.
WBA - Fulham
WBA is $2.50 better at Pinnacle than betfair if you successfully queue.
Fulham is better by about $14 if you queue.
The draw is better by about $11 on Pinnacle if you manage to queue at betfair.
West Ham - Newcastle
Pinnacle is better by $1.50-ish for W.ham even if you successfully queue at betfair.
Newcastle is better at betfair by about $6 if you queue at betfair.
The draw is better by $7.50-ish at pinnacle even if you successfully queue at betfair.
Wigan - Bolton
Wigan is better at pinnacle by about $1.50 compared to a successful queue at bf.
Bolton is better by about $4 at betfair if you successfully queue. There is a gap in the market for this one though!
The draw is better at pinnacle by about $6.50 even if you queue at betfair.
So the lesson is:
Betfair is almost never best for betting on the favorite (as observed by others in this thread as well!). Never bet on the draw with betfair. Always check betfair when you want to bet on a huge outsider.
These calcs were all done using $100 stakes and 5% commission. I used the available lay price as back price (so I queued!). However there is no guarantee at all that you will successfully queue for all these bets. I gave up looking for other asian odds after the first few ones because I saw that there was just no need to, pinnacle beats betfair easily.Comment -
Hareeba!BARRELED IN @ SBR!
- 07-01-06
- 37250
#63So you mean that you can queue or something? I still don't buy it and there is no way that you will benefit much from using Betfair over Pinnacle. Except if betting on the underdog all the time.
Tottenham - Everton
BF, you can take 2.08, queue for 2.10. If you get 2.10 for $100 then you win $104.5.
12bet, 2.09 is available, bet $100 and win $109.
(Pinnacle 2.06 but still better than betfair)
For a bet on Everton you will earn $10 if you successfully queue, if else then pinnacle is better for about $1.
A draw bet is best with Pinnacle at 3.48, you can queue for 3.50 with Betfair. Pinnacle is better by $10 if you successfully queue.
Chelsea - Wolves
A bet on Chelsea is worth maybe 50c more at pinnacle than at betfair.
A bet on Wolves is worth a massive $1000-ish more at betfair if you successfully queue.
the draw is worth about $5 more at betfair if you can queue. 188bet is the best option with +$15 over betfair.
Sunderland - Villa
Sunderland - Even if you queue, pinnacle is still better by about $4. Other asians slightly better.
Aston Villa is better by about 50c if you successfully queue.
Pinnacle is better by about $1.50 on the draw even if you queue.
WBA - Fulham
WBA is $2.50 better at Pinnacle than betfair if you successfully queue.
Fulham is better by about $14 if you queue.
The draw is better by about $11 on Pinnacle if you manage to queue at betfair.
West Ham - Newcastle
Pinnacle is better by $1.50-ish for W.ham even if you successfully queue at betfair.
Newcastle is better at betfair by about $6 if you queue at betfair.
The draw is better by $7.50-ish at pinnacle even if you successfully queue at betfair.
Wigan - Bolton
Wigan is better at pinnacle by about $1.50 compared to a successful queue at bf.
Bolton is better by about $4 at betfair if you successfully queue. There is a gap in the market for this one though!
The draw is better at pinnacle by about $6.50 even if you queue at betfair.
So the lesson is:
Betfair is almost never best for betting on the favorite (as observed by others in this thread as well!). Never bet on the draw with betfair. Always check betfair when you want to bet on a huge outsider.
These calcs were all done using $100 stakes and 5% commission. I used the available lay price as back price (so I queued!). However there is no guarantee at all that you will successfully queue for all these bets. I gave up looking for other asian odds after the first few ones because I saw that there was just no need to, pinnacle beats betfair easily.
I haven't checked them yet but they will eventually come into 101% markets or pretty close to it
the other point is that most serious punters aren't paying anywhere near 5% comm. at BetfairComment -
ChopsticksSBR MVP
- 06-30-09
- 1057
#64
Betfair is still good for long odds stuff, which includes first goalscorer, correct score, HT/FT and so on (however you get no 'if' refunds). But for 1x2 and AH you will find better odds with a regular bookie almost every time unless you are backing the outsider (and sometimes the draw when a big outsider is playing).Comment -
Hareeba!BARRELED IN @ SBR!
- 07-01-06
- 37250
#65Since I used the queued prices then I am gonna guess I was pretty close to the overround you are referring to. There is only one tick between back/lay on most of these so it wont really make a difference.
That may very well be true. But you would lose a lot of value working your way towards a decent commission rate. Even back in the day when I used Betfair a lot I would mostly stay around 4.50%. But if I did not place a lot of bets the next week then I would go back to 4.70% or something because of the 15% weekly decay.
Betfair is still good for long odds stuff, which includes first goalscorer, correct score, HT/FT and so on (however you get no 'if' refunds). But for 1x2 and AH you will find better odds with a regular bookie almost every time unless you are backing the outsider (and sometimes the draw when a big outsider is playing).
I mostly use them for tennis, rugby and Australian footy where I can most of the time extract better prices if I have the time before the games and for racing where there simply is no contest with Pinnacle.
And obviously, this being a US facing forum with very few interested in their racing product which is the #1 attraction at Betfair, Pinnacle is getting more ticks than it would from a more balanced audience.Comment -
lukahhSBR Wise Guy
- 04-08-10
- 941
#66So you mean that you can queue or something? I still don't buy it and there is no way that you will benefit much from using Betfair over Pinnacle. Except if betting on the underdog all the time.
Tottenham - Everton
BF, you can take 2.08, queue for 2.10. If you get 2.10 for $100 then you win $104.5.
12bet, 2.09 is available, bet $100 and win $109.
(Pinnacle 2.06 but still better than betfair)
For a bet on Everton you will earn $10 if you successfully queue, if else then pinnacle is better for about $1.
A draw bet is best with Pinnacle at 3.48, you can queue for 3.50 with Betfair. Pinnacle is better by $10 if you successfully queue.
Chelsea - Wolves
A bet on Chelsea is worth maybe 50c more at pinnacle than at betfair.
A bet on Wolves is worth a massive $1000-ish more at betfair if you successfully queue.
the draw is worth about $5 more at betfair if you can queue. 188bet is the best option with +$15 over betfair.
Sunderland - Villa
Sunderland - Even if you queue, pinnacle is still better by about $4. Other asians slightly better.
Aston Villa is better by about 50c if you successfully queue.
Pinnacle is better by about $1.50 on the draw even if you queue.
WBA - Fulham
WBA is $2.50 better at Pinnacle than betfair if you successfully queue.
Fulham is better by about $14 if you queue.
The draw is better by about $11 on Pinnacle if you manage to queue at betfair.
West Ham - Newcastle
Pinnacle is better by $1.50-ish for W.ham even if you successfully queue at betfair.
Newcastle is better at betfair by about $6 if you queue at betfair.
The draw is better by $7.50-ish at pinnacle even if you successfully queue at betfair.
Wigan - Bolton
Wigan is better at pinnacle by about $1.50 compared to a successful queue at bf.
Bolton is better by about $4 at betfair if you successfully queue. There is a gap in the market for this one though!
The draw is better at pinnacle by about $6.50 even if you queue at betfair.
So the lesson is:
Betfair is almost never best for betting on the favorite (as observed by others in this thread as well!). Never bet on the draw with betfair. Always check betfair when you want to bet on a huge outsider.
These calcs were all done using $100 stakes and 5% commission. I used the available lay price as back price (so I queued!). However there is no guarantee at all that you will successfully queue for all these bets. I gave up looking for other asian odds after the first few ones because I saw that there was just no need to, pinnacle beats betfair easily.Comment -
rki999SBR Sharp
- 12-29-09
- 282
#67If you are a serious bettor, use A+ bookies.Comment -
CanadaSBR Sharp
- 02-14-10
- 287
#68Buying points on american football allows me to take pinnicle's money.
this thread looks like pinnicle's or betfairs cheap ass market research.Comment -
Hareeba!BARRELED IN @ SBR!
- 07-01-06
- 37250
#69No, I was simply intrigued why so many were putting Pinnacle ahead of Betfair if they aren't predominately US sports players. It sounds like you might be so I would understand in your case but I think that most who can use Betfair have far wider sports interests and overall would nominate Betfair ahead of Pinnacle.Comment -
odysseusSBR High Roller
- 11-30-09
- 134
#70
the only way to get better odds in this situation is to "gamble" on a line moverment. It could easily go the other way.
Fair enough before this situation ie early on, you can queue for better odds but are not guaranteed to get them.Comment
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