188bet refuses to grade bet correctly

[Jaug]

I will try to keep this short. My bet was a h2h for the olympic super-g womens event.

The bet was Kamer to beat Brydon. Neither skier finished the event and they are only sorted by their shirt number on the official results list. Here are the results http://www.vancouver2010.com/olympic...w040101gR.html .

188bet chose to grade it as a loss (how?) and after contacting them they sent me this mail:

Further to our live chat conversation, you have inquired about your bet with reference ID 201002370458203. As per checking, the bet is graded accordingly. With reference to the website you have provided and to our Sports Rules, “The player that is qualified to play the game for the longest is deemed the winner. In this case, Emily Brydon has finished two rounds while Nadja Kamer has finished only one round. You may check our Sports Rules for more information.


Now, they probably don't know what sport they are writing about here. There are no two rounds in alpine skiing. Can they please understand what sport they are talking about before writing an email?

I don't understand how bookies can be so resentful towards someone trying to correct one of THEIR errors. They should make every case like this top priority.

Is there anyone here who disagrees and thinks this bet should be graded as a loss?

The rule they are talking about is actually only about who qualifies furthest, that is, if I bet Smith to beat Jones and Smith qualifies while Jones does not. That rule goes into play.

[AimingHigh]

Is it a sport where neither can qualify, but one can still do better than the other in terms of times, percentage completion, etc? I know you said they were sorted by shirt number on the official website, but I wondered if 188 might be looking at some aspect of their attempts at qualifying?

[Jaug]

Is it a sport where neither can qualify, but one can still do better than the other in terms of times, percentage completion, etc? I know you said they were sorted by shirt number on the official website, but I wondered if 188 might be looking at some aspect of their attempts at qualifying?

188bet has a rule that if neither completes final event then they look at qualifications and grade bets from there. However they did not qualify for the event, as this was a one time race.

I guess you could say there is a difference in percentage completion of the course, but two athletes DNF or two athletes DQ that should be push every time right?

[Jaug]

Received another mail, typical scam book reply:

We acknowledge receipt of your email with regard to your bet with reference number 201002370458203. After discussing this issue with the proper department, please be informed that final score posted in our website is correct. The decision of 188BET is final in respect of any bet and the associated transactions therewith.

So now they are putting themselves over official results from vancouver2010.com, well what can you expect I guess. Does anyone know where I can file a complaint with the ones responsible for regulations on Isle of man?

[sportsbetwin]

Brydon comes before Kamer in the alphabet - therfore she must have finished above her on the result listings.
Maybe that is how they graded it???

[Santo]

If you expand the results for both skiiers, Brydon went through the 2nd timing check whilst Kamer only made it through the 1st. I guess that is their argument.

[Jaug]

Brydon comes before Kamer in the alphabet - therfore she must have finished above her on the result listings. Maybe that is how they graded it???

lol, wouldn't surprise me

If you expand the results for both skiiers, Brydon went through the 2nd timing check whilst Kamer only made it through the 1st. I guess that is their argument.

Do you think it is a valid argument? I personally do not.

[winM]

No solution! They r boss!

[siabdo23]

olympics hard to debate with them

[Jaug]

Industry standards, quoted from pinny. Logical rules:

Alpine skiing

1. At least one of the participants must complete the entire event/all races for the bet to stand.

[Jaug]

Industry standards, quoted from SBObet. Logical rules:
Winter sports:
(i) Head To Head
(A) In Head to Head bets, the paired competitors must start the competition for bets to stand.
(B) Head to Head markets refer to the competitors with the best finishing position.
(C) If one of the two competitors is disqualified or withdraw after starting that round the other competitor will be deemed the winner.
(D) If one of the two paired competitors is disqualified or withdraws after starting either prior to the completion of the first round, or after both competitors have qualified for a further round, the other competitor is deemed the winner.
(E) If both paired competitors are disqualified during different rounds, the winner will be the one who has advanced the furthest.

SBObet would void the bet. Pinny would void the bet.

[Mikelo]

There is no point to quote another books rules. You bet with 188bet.They don't have clear rules for this case so they can do whatever they want.

[Dunder]

Industry standards, quoted from pinny. Logical rules:

Alpine skiing

1. At least one of the participants must complete the entire event/all races for the bet to stand.

What are the rules written on the 188Bet site with reference to this type of bet?

They are registered in the IOM and as such fall outside of UK regulations.

[Jaug]

What are the rules written on the 188Bet site with reference to this type of bet? They are registered in the IOM and as such fall outside of UK regulations.

188bet rules:
Head to Head

• Both participants must leave the start line/gate for bets to stand. If an event comprises of just one round then official results from that round will be used for settlement purposes.
• The player that is qualified to play the game for the longest is deemed the winner.
• For multiple round events - if both participants fail to qualify for the next round then bets will be voided. If both participants qualify for the next round but neither completes the event then the winner will be deemed to be the participant with the fastest recorded time in the first round.

This is not a multiple round event so the last paragraph is not applicable. They have now changed the rules because of my complaint and they actually managed to change the rules in my favor. I will contact them again.

[Dunder]

188bet rules:
Head to Head

• Both participants must leave the start line/gate for bets to stand. If an event comprises of just one round then official results from that round will be used for settlement purposes.
• The player that is qualified to play the game for the longest is deemed the winner.
• For multiple round events - if both participants fail to qualify for the next round then bets will be voided. If both participants qualify for the next round but neither completes the event then the winner will be deemed to be the participant with the fastest recorded time in the first round.

This is not a multiple round event so the last paragraph is not applicable. They have now changed the rules because of my complaint and they actually managed to change the rules in my favor. I will contact them again.

Although these rules are (deliberately) vague, the bolded part above clearly indicates that the official results are what should be used.

As mentioned however, you probably don´t have any means to take the issue further - the IOM has no gambling regulator.

[skrtelfan]

I've never seen a skiing scoreboard rank skiers based on how far they made it down the course. A DNF is a DNF. You can simply look at the fact that Kamer is listed as finishing "higher" than Marshall even though Marshall made it to the 2nd timing.

The obvious proof is that if both skiers crashed between the 1st and 2nd timing, to adhere to the rules they quoted, you'd need to somehow precisely measure which one made it further before crashing or going off the course, which would be quite difficult to do. Not to mention, say one skier goes off course after the 2nd timing, and does so 40 seconds in. Another skier falls after the 1st timing but doesn't go off course, so isn't officially "DNF" until she exits the course, and let's say it takes her 2 minutes to leave the course. Technically she was "qualified to play the game longer."

Their customer service seems clueless so just file a complaint with SBR.

[Jaug]

I've never seen a skiing scoreboard rank skiers based on how far they made it down the course. A DNF is a DNF. You can simply look at the fact that Kamer is listed as finishing "higher" than Marshall even though Marshall made it to the 2nd timing.

The obvious proof is that if both skiers crashed between the 1st and 2nd timing, to adhere to the rules they quoted, you'd need to somehow precisely measure which one made it further before crashing or going off the course, which would be quite difficult to do. Not to mention, say one skier goes off course after the 2nd timing, and does so 40 seconds in. Another skier falls after the 1st timing but doesn't go off course, so isn't officially "DNF" until she exits the course, and let's say it takes her 2 minutes to leave the course. Technically she was "qualified to play the game longer."

Their customer service seems clueless so just file a complaint with SBR.

Thank you for your support, this is a very good argument indeed. I will file a complaint with sbr.

[AimingHigh]

A quick search online revealed these guys - the Isle of Man Government's Gambling Supervision Commission: http://www.gov.im/gambling/players.xml

That page suggests they offer a complaints process for players, and provides this e-mail address for that purpose: gaming@gov.im.

Perhaps this is something to consider, in addition to an SBR complaint?

[Jaug]

Wow what a arrogant and uneducated response I got asking what rule made the bet a loser:

We acknowledge receipt of your email regarding your bet. Please note that with regards to bets, 188BET’s decision is final. This is clearly stated in our Terms and Conditions. Thanks.

I don't know about this book to be honest. If they can't even follow their own rules then something is seriously wrong. Sponsoring at least two major premier league teams in the UK and stealing money, i mean what the hell.

[Hareeba!]

Wow what a arrogant and uneducated response I got asking what rule made the bet a loser:

We acknowledge receipt of your email regarding your bet. Please note that with regards to bets, 188BET’s decision is final. This is clearly stated in our Terms and Conditions. Thanks.

I don't know about this book to be honest. If they can't even follow their own rules then something is seriously wrong. Sponsoring at least two major premier league teams in the UK and stealing money, i mean what the hell.

I suggest you advise them that you intend to refer the matter to their Regulator and perhaps they may wish to reconsider to save having to justify their decision to someone they can't just shrug off.

[jw]

188bet rules:
Head to Head

• Both participants must leave the start line/gate for bets to stand. If an event comprises of just one round then official results from that round will be used for settlement purposes.
  
• The player that is qualified to play the game for the longest is deemed the winner.
• For multiple round events - if both participants fail to qualify for the next round then bets will be voided. If both participants qualify for the next round but neither completes the event then the winner will be deemed to be the participant with the fastest recorded time in the first round.

I would argue that both players left the gate - so the bet stands .. the one that got furthest down the course is the winner ... as one got to the second time check and one didn't .. there is a clear winner IMHO ... You won't want to hear it ... but I think they graded this correctly.

[sportsbetwin]

Those rules are ambiguous:

Both participants must leave the start line/gate for bets to stand. If an event comprises of just one round then official results from that round will be used for settlement purposes.

It's a push.

The player that is qualified to play the game for the longest is deemed the winner.


No its a loss.

It sucks but they can grade this a loss. I wonder if those on Brydon got a push based on the first criteria?

You gotta let it go!

[Jaug]

Well they actually realized I was right all along now. Issue resolved.


We are writing to you with regard to your bet for the match between Emily Brydon (CAN) vs Nadja Kamer(SUI) for Winter Olympic-Alpine Skiing (Super-G) (Women). We have processed your bet in accordance to our head to head rule point # 2, “The player that is qualified to play the game for the longest is deemed the winner”.

However, we would like to apologize if the rules stated on our website caused confusion. It is also our deepest regret that you have received insolent responses from our representatives.

Hence, please be informed that your stake amounting to USD X (Bet ticket number: X) has already been refunded to your 188BET account. On top of this, we will be crediting an amount of USD X as a token of goodwill for your feedback with regard to our rules which would greatly help us to improve our services.

We have noted your experience and will make necessary changes to our Sports Rules. Please accept our sincerest thank you and once again, we do apologize for all the inconveniences this has caused you.

[Jontheman]

Well done Jaug. In cases like this it's often the case that you need enough persistence to get through basic level support (probably working for peanuts with training only in how to fob off customers) and get the case reviewed by a manager. They generally have the intelligence to understand that the negative publicity would be far more costly than the regrade of the wager in the internet gambling industry where reputation is everything. Finding a way through to them is the key!

[Hareeba!]

However, we would like to apologize if the rules stated on our website caused confusion. It is also our deepest regret that you have received insolent responses from our representatives.

Hence, please be informed that your stake amounting to USD X (Bet ticket number: X) has already been refunded to your 188BET account. On top of this, we will be crediting an amount of USD X as a token of goodwill for your feedback with regard to our rules which would greatly help us to improve our services.

We have noted your experience and will make necessary changes to our Sports Rules. Please accept our sincerest thank you and once again, we do apologize for all the inconveniences this has caused you.

What a refreshing change!
Well done 188
That is precisely what all businesses should be doing with complaints - actually welcoming them as a means of improving their service.
I trust the staff involved will have learned something very valuable here.

[skrtelfan]

Glad to see you got paid. Unfortunately quite a few books have very arrogant support staff at the lower levels and even explaining simple grading corrections can get responses of "This is how we graded it and we won't change your mind." At that point, you need to try to get to a higher level of CS, and if that doesn't work, complain on the forums.

[sportsbetwin]

Well done!

[Hareeba!]

bump for benefit of Bernard Tapis