Books should not require confirmation for bitcoin deposit

[PharaohUB]

It forces us to put in a higher fee than necessary if we want to fund our account quickly. Right now it's upwards of $20 if you want a quick confirmation.
They should be able to add funds when a deposit comes in and they see some kind off fee on there that's reasonable so they know it will clear eventually. What's worse that is going to happen? You wouldn't let someone withdraw if they have a pending deposit anyway. Bitcoin is driving me nuts lately and the books are taking so much advantage of us with putting the burden of fees on us. Can't wait for sports betting to start in Tennesseee.

[ace7550]

It forces us to put in a higher fee than necessary if we want to fund our account quickly. Right now it's upwards of $20 if you want a quick confirmation.
They should be able to add funds when a deposit comes in and they see some kind off fee on there that's reasonable so they know it will clear eventually. What's worse that is going to happen? You wouldn't let someone withdraw if they have a pending deposit anyway. Bitcoin is driving me nuts lately and the books are taking so much advantage of us with putting the burden of fees on us. Can't wait for sports betting to start in Tennesseee.

Agreed. I send btc from blockchain to Bovada and it shows up in my account literally instantly. I don't even know how they see it so quickly. All books should do this. They don't have to let you withdraw if the bitcoin deposit doesn't get confirmed.
A lot of books offer other crypto options too. Litecoin much faster and cheaper fees...

[Fishhead]

Some don't at times(Heritage, Betonline, AmericasBookie)
Sure many other do

[Fishhead]

BetOnline adds 5% to all deposits via BTC currently, in addition to their tremendous bonuses, lines, limits, and friendly staff

[ace7550]

BetOnline adds 5% to all deposits via BTC currently, in addition to their tremendous bonuses, lines, limits, and friendly staff

They sure do. Top notch shop

[Optional]

It forces us to put in a higher fee than necessary if we want to fund our account quickly. Right now it's upwards of $20 if you want a quick confirmation.
They should be able to add funds when a deposit comes in and they see some kind off fee on there that's reasonable so they know it will clear eventually. What's worse that is going to happen? You wouldn't let someone withdraw if they have a pending deposit anyway. Bitcoin is driving me nuts lately and the books are taking so much advantage of us with putting the burden of fees on us. Can't wait for sports betting to start in Tennesseee.

Whilst I agree books could do away with waiting for more than 1 confirmation, they cant trust everyone to not deposit, bet big and then just do a double spend if they lose to get their money back. So if they go zero they have to be prepared to wear some of that.


And here is a TX I sent about the same time you made this post. I used an extra large fee to get it confirmed in the next block. That cost $8. No where near $20 https://www.blockchain.com/btc/addre...SwY9mcdaMndJpr

[Judge Crater]

1 conformation is fair

[PharaohUB]

Whilst I agree books could do away with waiting for more than 1 confirmation, they cant trust everyone to not deposit, bet big and then just do a double spend if they lose to get their money back. So if they go zero they have to be prepared to wear some of that.


And here is a TX I sent about the same time you made this post. I used an extra large fee to get it confirmed in the next block. That cost $8. No where near $20 https://www.blockchain.com/btc/addre...SwY9mcdaMndJpr

It's all dependent on the coins you are sending. Some are larger some are smaller. It's not one size fits all. I paid between 15-20 dollars twice the other day. It seems to depend on history of the bitcoin where it came from how large it is. Then to get into the block you need to pay relative to the size of the transaction you're trying to get in there.

[PharaohUB]

Also $8 is $8 and also we're setting precedence. It's not getting cheaper to send bitcoin over time, it's getting more expensive. If that trend continues it will only be worse for the player over time. Maybe the solution is to use alt coins I will look into that.

[PharaohUB]

I just bought $234 worth on crypto.com and they charge me $8 fees to buy (which supposedly one of the cheaper options). I withdraw to my blockchain, I pay them another 0.001 btc is taken out ($1.30)? . Then I have to send priority to the book. I pay another $10 fees. That's $20 (almost 10%) of my money gone in fees. And this is not the exception lately, it is becoming the norm. Am I doing it wrong?

[PharaohUB]

Agreed. I send btc from blockchain to Bovada and it shows up in my account literally instantly. I don't even know how they see it so quickly. All books should do this. They don't have to let you withdraw if the bitcoin deposit doesn't get confirmed.
A lot of books offer other crypto options too. Litecoin much faster and cheaper fees...

Good idea on alt coins don't know why I always forget about those. i'll check them out

[Mild Mannered]

It forces us to put in a higher fee than necessary if we want to fund our account quickly. Right now it's upwards of $20 if you want a quick confirmation.
They should be able to add funds when a deposit comes in and they see some kind off fee on there that's reasonable so they know it will clear eventually. What's worse that is going to happen? You wouldn't let someone withdraw if they have a pending deposit anyway. Bitcoin is driving me nuts lately and the books are taking so much advantage of us with putting the burden of fees on us. Can't wait for sports betting to start in Tennesseee.

When the bitcoin mempool is very busy and backed up, a transaction with a trivially small fee can stay in the mempool for weeks before getting mined (first confirmation). I think the limit is that a transaction will stay in the mempool for 2 or 3 weeks (used to be 3 days) before being removed from the mempool (and showing up back in your wallet). If a sportsbook gave you credit and the transaction was never mined, they will never get the funds. Not good for them,

[PharaohUB]

When the bitcoin mempool is very busy and backed up, a transaction with a trivially small fee can stay in the mempool for weeks before getting mined (first confirmation). I think the limit is that a transaction will stay in the mempool for 2 or 3 weeks (used to be 3 days) before being removed from the mempool (and showing up back in your wallet). If a sportsbook gave you credit and the transaction was never mined, they will never get the funds. Not good for them,

Not true at all. Once bitcoin is sent its in their wallet as unconfirmed, BUT they can forward it to another address and add the fees themselves to get yours and theirs confirmed (they would just have to pay almost double because it will be twice the size because the algorithsm building the blocks know they have to put your transaction into the block as well as theirs since they are part of a chain together). They ALWAYS forward deposits to a central wallet anyway. Check those wallet addresses you send to.
They are simply just putting burden of fees on players plain and simple. I don't blame them - nobody else is complaining but me LOL.

[littlekona]

I think that the btc processor some books use has technlogy that knows if a transaction will confirm and thus posts to account before confirmation as at BOL and Heritage they credit some of mine way before any confirmation some near instat from send. I remeber the old directbet had all sorts of issues with guys messing around sending with low fee's and double spends.

[Mild Mannered]

Not true at all. Once bitcoin is sent its in their wallet as unconfirmed, BUT they can forward it to another address and add the fees themselves to get yours and theirs confirmed (they would just have to pay almost double because it will be twice the size because the algorithsm building the blocks know they have to put your transaction into the block as well as theirs since they are part of a chain together). They ALWAYS forward deposits to a central wallet anyway. Check those wallet addresses you send to.
They are simply just putting burden of fees on players plain and simple. I don't blame them - nobody else is complaining but me LOL.

Their wallet sees the transaction in the mempool, but it's not part of the bitcoin blockchain until it's mined. The transaction will disappear from their wallet if not mined within 3 weeks, and never make it to the official record, i.e, the blockchain.

One way to bump up the fee is called RBF (replace by fee). Only you can do that (because it's your private key that's actually "moving" the funds) by sending the identical transaction again with a much higher fee.

What you described is something called child pays for parent. But why would the sportsbook want to burden themselves with adding fees, and hoping your unconfirmed transaction will be mined with another?

[PaperTrail07]

For a low amount w someone who previously sends---100%

1 conformation is fair

[PharaohUB]

Their wallet sees the transaction in the mempool, but it's not part of the bitcoin blockchain until it's mined. The transaction will disappear from their wallet if not mined within 3 weeks, and never make it to the official record, i.e, the blockchain.

One way to bump up the fee is called RBF (replace by fee). Only you can do that (because it's your private key that's actually "moving" the funds) by sending the identical transaction again with a much higher fee.

What you described is something called child pays for parent. But why would the sportsbook want to burden themselves with adding fees, and hoping your unconfirmed transaction will be mined with another?

What are you talking about. They dont' have to "hope" anything get's confirmed, anymore then I do when I send a transaction with enough fees. The algorithms will gladly put their transaction, including the child transction into their block if they pay enough. Which they can easily figure out. Maybe you don't remember but books used to cover your fees. The chances they don't get a confirmation are pretty much ZERO. But they'll waste hours/days of my f'in time waiting for a transaction to get confirmed when I've been at the book for years, unless I pay some exorbitant fees.
Books can do whatever they want, I just don't particularly like it and don't think a good precendence is being set. It's only going to get more and more expensive over time to send bitcoin. It's worth a discussion and not all this negative reaction.
And Of course the book doesnt want to "burden themselves with fees", but I don't want to be either? that just mean it is on us now. It didn't used to be like this.

I was a big supporter of Bitcoin from WAY BACK. I think it was me and one other guy on here that supported bitcoin, while the rest of the site including admins thought it was some kind of voodoo magic, and we got a lot of negative responses about how it can't be trusted/it's not real, etc. I was using bitcoin only books years before the sponsors here even accepted bitcoin. Point is I don't need anyone to explain to me how bitcoin works. I was excited about it, but I am disappointed how all the benefits of bitcoin went to benefit the books, and nothing to the player. Nobody can see that I guess.

[Mild Mannered]

What are you talking about. They dont' have to "hope" anything get's confirmed, anymore then I do when I send a transaction with enough fees. The algorithms will gladly put their transaction, including the child transction into their block if they pay enough. Which they can easily figure out. Maybe you don't remember but books used to cover your fees. The chances they don't get a confirmation are pretty much ZERO. But they'll waste hours/days of my f'in time waiting for a transaction to get confirmed when I've been at the book for years, unless I pay some exorbitant fees.
Books can do whatever they want, I just don't particularly like it and don't think a good precendence is being set. It's only going to get more and more expensive over time to send bitcoin. It's worth a discussion and not all this negative reaction.
And Of course the book doesnt want to "burden themselves with fees", but I don't want to be either? that just mean it is on us now. It didn't used to be like this.

I was a big supporter of Bitcoin from WAY BACK. I think it was me and one other guy on here that supported bitcoin, while the rest of the site including admins thought it was some kind of voodoo magic, and we got a lot of negative responses about how it can't be trusted/it's not real, etc. I was using bitcoin only books years before the sponsors here even accepted bitcoin. Point is I don't need anyone to explain to me how bitcoin works. I was excited about it, but I am disappointed how all the benefits of bitcoin went to benefit the books, and nothing to the player. Nobody can see that I guess.

I see, you're saying during expensive fee time, the books should cover all fees. OK, that's a business decision. Most other ways to transact funds the fees are pretty well known. During times when the bitcoin mempool is backed up, the fees can vary tremendously, especially compared to low volume transaction times. I mean the fees can go from a few cents in low volume times to tens of dollars in high volume times. I suppose that can really add up if you have thousands of customers.

I think sportsbooks have played a non-trivial role in getting bitcoin bootstrapped. Maybe people should start lobbying sportsbooks to have them use the new bitcoin lightning network. Then they'd receive funds pretty much instantly with no need to confirm (same with sending), and fees for sending are trivial (generally a few satoshis). Helping bootstrap the lightning network would be a big boost for bitcoin, would be perfect for sportsbooks and their customers who want instantly credited deposits..

[mrpapageorgio]

I see, you're saying during expensive fee time, the books should cover all fees. OK, that's a business decision. Most other ways to transact funds the fees are pretty well known. During times when the bitcoin mempool is backed up, the fees can vary tremendously, especially compared to low volume transaction times. I mean the fees can go from a few cents in low volume times to tens of dollars in high volume times. I suppose that can really add up if you have thousands of customers.

I think sportsbooks have played a non-trivial role in getting bitcoin bootstrapped. Maybe people should start lobbying sportsbooks to have them use the new bitcoin lightning network. Then they'd receive funds pretty much instantly with no need to confirm (same with sending), and fees for sending are trivial (generally a few satoshis). Helping bootstrap the lightning network would be a big boost for bitcoin, would be perfect for sportsbooks and their customers who want instantly credited deposits..

Lightning Network has been 18 months away from being ready for the past 5 years.

[Mild Mannered]

Lightning Network has been 18 months away from being ready for the past 5 years.

Lightning network is ready. More amazing things are being added to it incrementally, but it is now considered ready. While it was being tested the last 2 years, there were limits of around 0.04 btc you could send. That limit was removed a few weeks ago, and the amount you can send is no longer capped.

Lightning network is not being rolled out by some major corporation with lots of fanfare and advertisement. It is grassroots effort, and I can't think of a much better use case than getting a sportsbetting account credited instantly (or getting your bitcoin lightning wallet credited instantly when you receive) and with trivial fees (like 1 or 2 cents). Download a Phoenix or Breez bitcoin lightning wallet (or some other one, I'm not shilling) and play around with it. It's a whole new amazing world.

[Judge Crater]

Been some crazy high fees lately

[lonnie55]

I agree.

BetInAsia requires 6 (!) confirmations.

[PharaohUB]

I see, you're saying during expensive fee time, the books should cover all fees. OK, that's a business decision. Most other ways to transact funds the fees are pretty well known. During times when the bitcoin mempool is backed up, the fees can vary tremendously, especially compared to low volume transaction times. I mean the fees can go from a few cents in low volume times to tens of dollars in high volume times. I suppose that can really add up if you have thousands of customers.

I think sportsbooks have played a non-trivial role in getting bitcoin bootstrapped. Maybe people should start lobbying sportsbooks to have them use the new bitcoin lightning network. Then they'd receive funds pretty much instantly with no need to confirm (same with sending), and fees for sending are trivial (generally a few satoshis). Helping bootstrap the lightning network would be a big boost for bitcoin, would be perfect for sportsbooks and their customers who want instantly credited deposits..

Not really even suggesting they should cover the high fees necessarily - that's just a worst case scenario saying they would never lose the deposit. They should just give long term players benefit of doubt and credit balance when they see transaction sent, unless they sent with no fee. There is a huge difference in fee when you send regular, vs. priority sometimes. Just let me send a regular fee and you know it'll get credited sometime that day but put the funds in my wallet. Don't force me to pay priority fee just so I can play right away.
Some of the wallets I withdraw from I can't determine fee so sometimes when it's busy they will get stuck for a bit. Sure I could send to blockchain first and then to sportsbook, but now we're talking even more fees for me!

Just saying there's other options to remove frustration from players. If we wake up on a Sunday AM and want to play some NFL, give us benefit of doubt and credit our account, if the transaction pool is a little busy and our fees aren't "priority" level fees. I feel like its a win-win for everyone. Don't they want my action?

[Optional]

The chances they don't get a confirmation are pretty much ZERO.

That is true for you, me and most other bettors.

But they make that rule to cover the less honest people who play tricks.

[ace7550]

How about, "We will credit your account immediately but you will be unable to withdraw funds until the transaction is confirmed on the blockchain."
Wouldn't this make it so the books can't get ripped off and the player would have instant access to their funds?

[ace7550]

Wait, I just read post #6 and now I see why they need at least 1 confirmation.

[mrpapageorgio]

Wait, I just read post #6 and now I see why they need at least 1 confirmation.

They want to prevent double spends, but at the same time I think they could work on a system where people who have an established history with them can have their accounts credited as soon as a transaction with a reasonable fee to ensure a timely confirmation is in the mempool.

[ace7550]

They want to prevent double spends, but at the same time I think they could work on a system where people who have an established history with them can have their accounts credited as soon as a transaction with a reasonable fee to ensure a timely confirmation is in the mempool.

Agreed. Bovada already does this. My Bovada deposits get credited instantly and my bol/sbag deposits usually get credited within 5 minutes. Other books should follow.

[DoubleRedDragon]

That’s why I was using bitcoin cash

[DontTailMe]

How about, "We will credit your account immediately but you will be unable to withdraw funds until the transaction is confirmed on the blockchain."
Wouldn't this make it so the books can't get ripped off and the player would have instant access to their funds?

Wouldn't it still allow for dishonest people to free roll? Send BTC with low trnsaction fee, place $5000 in live bets, and double spend the funds if those bets don't hit.

I agree with whoever upthread said that it would be nice for them to waive the confirmation for established accounts.

[littlekona]

Allowing for no confirmation is like processing a p2p deposit before picking up the money....the books that do i think use a processor that guarantees funds and has technology to tell if its good. The old direct bet is great example of why many books dont as they had guys scamming them with low fees and double spends

[ace7550]

Wouldn't it still allow for dishonest people to free roll? Send BTC with low trnsaction fee, place $5000 in live bets, and double spend the funds if those bets don't hit.

I agree with whoever upthread said that it would be nice for them to waive the confirmation for established accounts.

Yep this is the issue. See post #6 and #26. There either needs to be one confirmation or the deposit needs to be from an established account.

[Judge Crater]

Does anyone know if it is 100% un-cancellable after 1 confirmation?

[ace7550]

Does anyone know if it is 100% un-cancellable after 1 confirmation?

The basic answer is no. 1 confirmation isn't a guarantee. This might help:

https://www.buybitcoinworldwide.com/confirmations/

[littlekona]

Yep this is the issue. See post #6 and #26. There either needs to be one confirmation or the deposit needs to be from an established account.

estblished accout? LOL come on. Man I know many guys that have screwed an online book and or local because they had an establshed account. In the world of gambling esp offshore no one can be trusted 100% player and or book