Pinnacle Just Released News Terms & Conditions

**Optional** · 01-18-19, 10:34 PM

A rule about not being able to use bots does not concern me.

Sounds good actually.

Hopefully I'll get better odds and faster payouts if people found using software that defeats their systems are gone.

And if this is a serious question from you, "First, how is it possible for someone to cheat? I don't get it", then the rule should not bother you either.

They don't care about your sharp betting system, only if you employ software to execute it on their site.

**pretentiousGuy** · 01-19-19, 12:20 AM

Originally posted by AimHigher

I've been working on a System of my own for quite some time, using spreadsheets. I've placed bets on pretty much every league they offer bets on, from Korean baseball, to Russian junior hockey, to Peruvian soccer, to Canadian football, to French basketball. Of course, my "System is not automated in any way. But when I start winning consistently (I think I'm starting to,) am I going to be accused of using a "System ...designed to defeat or capable of defeating their applications and/or software?"

LOL. You don't need to worry about a thing, squirt.

Now, this one is interesting(not sure when it was added, definitely wasn't in their early last year). I wonder how often they will enforce it:

Pinnacle has the right to limit, cancel and refuse bets in case they are considered to be too large or if we see that the betting pattern of the player takes place in such a way that the system is being abused.

**AimHigher** · 01-19-19, 09:00 AM

Originally posted by Optional

A rule about not being able to use bots does not concern me.

Sounds good actually.

Hopefully I'll get better odds and faster payouts if people found using software that defeats their systems are gone.

And if this is a serious question from you, "First, how is it possible for someone to cheat? I don't get it", then the rule should not bother you either.

They don't care about your sharp betting system, only if you employ software to execute it on their site.

I've been wondering why the max-limits have been dropping all over their site. It seems there are some assholes who can't play by the rules, and who are trying to ruin things for everyone. Pinnacle is hurting enough already, when countries like Australia, out-law them. Now they have this problem too. Not good.

**leetreaper** · 01-19-19, 09:01 AM

Brokedikks complaining about Pinny over and over

**Alfa1234** · 01-19-19, 09:15 AM

Wouldn't someone using their API be using a bot all the time?

**ManosdePiedra** · 01-19-19, 10:28 AM

this

**danwinkler** · 01-19-19, 11:01 AM

Pinnacle for a long time allowed bots. This rule is specifically for bot users. I actually suggested to pinnacle customer service they should disallow people from using any automated betting software or bots and they proudly replied that their volume and their system can handle anything and there was no reason for them to disallow them. I didn't like that decision. That was years ago.

Now, they finally made a rule against it. I am happy.

Those bot users beat the good line almost every time. Most of them use bots for arb purposes.

I don't like racing against bots to get the best line. This new rule is golden and should have happened long time ago.

I am guessing their volume is not as good anymore to support bot activity.

**danwinkler** · 01-19-19, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by AimHigher

I've been wondering why the max-limits have been dropping all over their site. It seems there are some assholes who can't play by the rules, and who are trying to ruin things for everyone. Pinnacle is hurting enough already, when countries like Australia, out-law them. Now they have this problem too. Not good.

The limits are lower because the volume is not the same, especially on american sports. However, they are still easily a top 5 book.

**ichiro4thehall** · 01-19-19, 03:49 PM

Originally posted by AimHigher

About 30 minutes ago, I visited Pinnacle's website, and was required to agree to new terms and conditions.

I had a quick scan through, and I found this:

We may suspend and/or cancel the participation of your Account in the Services, and/or forfeit and/or confiscate funds available on your Account if you are found cheating, or if it is determined by us that you have employed or made use of a system (including machines, robots, computers, software or any other automated system) designed to defeat or capable of defeating our applications and/or software.

First, how is it possible for someone to cheat? I don't get it.

Second, isn't this a very broad rule? Isn't anyone who wins consistently, using some sort of "System?"
Note, they do use these words: "automated system."

I've been working on a System of my own for quite some time, using spreadsheets. I've placed bets on pretty much every league they offer bets on, from Korean baseball, to Russian junior hockey, to Peruvian soccer, to Canadian football, to French basketball. Of course, my "System is not automated in any way. But when I start winning consistently (I think I'm starting to,) am I going to be accused of using a "System ...designed to defeat or capable of defeating their applications and/or software?"

Did anyone else notice any concerning changes?

First, I should state Pinnacle are the best to have ever done it.

But you are right OP that term as written is way too general. I trust Pinnacle and believe it was meant to prohibit bots, basically. But it does not do this specifically. It states clearly the words 'made use of a system' and although it then lists in brackets examples of bot-user type behaviour, these examples in no way amend the general 'made use of a system' part, they are purely, as stated, examples.

I'd mention this to them and I am sure they willl rewrite this term so that it is focussed precisely on the behaviour Pinnacle wishes to prohibit.

**ichiro4thehall** · 01-19-19, 03:57 PM

The 'applications and/or software' part is also a bit general and problematic. One could easily argue that Pinnaclesports.com/.eu etc are simply applications and software.

Therefore, as OP I think worries, anyone using any system however basic is breaking this condition. For instance, someone who does a few martingale bets and wins is breaking this rule imo as written.

I am 100 percent sure however this rule was written for the sole and only purpose of stopping botters, for example arbers with bots set up to monitor odds comparison sites and place bets when arbs become available.

**dealer wins** · 01-20-19, 05:38 AM

Bots should be banned on exchanges as well, all they do is suck the life, soul and money out of them. You can see this happening as volumes keep decreasing every year.

**vampire assassin** · 01-20-19, 12:18 PM

If you have an account profiled sharp, which triggers an automove, you can use it to manipulate a price. You can use a non-profiled account (new) to bet the other side repeatedly. This is cheating.

similarly, if you are a sharp player and keep cycling through accounts to avoid profiling, they may consider it cheating.

They don't mind letting a winning player get one bet. They don't want him to get ten at the same price.

**Atreyu666** · 01-20-19, 05:39 PM

There is something about the new bots rules i dont really understand.
Lets put the following situation:
You bet in nba LIVE action, there the lines changes literally in 1 or 2 seconds, so its impossible to enter in the line you want as human because in 1 or 2 seconds obs you dont have time to make the bet in the original line.
So you are using a bot to enter in that original line, you do 2 or 3 max bets in that original line with the help of the bot cause its the only possible way to get it without getting it dropped and much worse in 1 or 2 seconds, is this still allowed to do? Or now you cant?

**Optional** · 01-20-19, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by Atreyu666

There is something about the new bots rules i dont really understand.
Lets put the following situation:
You bet in nba LIVE action, there the lines changes literally in 1 or 2 seconds, so its impossible to enter in the line you want as human because in 1 or 2 seconds obs you dont have time to make the bet in the original line.
So you are using a bot to enter in that original line, you do 2 or 3 max bets in that original line with the help of the bot cause its the only possible way to get it without getting it dropped and much worse in 1 or 2 seconds, is this still allowed to do? Or now you cant?

It sounds like that is what they want to stop.

So people without bots can get a chance at the best odds.

**Atreyu666** · 01-20-19, 07:24 PM

Originally posted by Optional

It sounds like that is what they want to stop.

So people without bots can get a chance at the best odds.

That would be fine IF now you have at least 10/20 seconds to do the bet in the original line, for example in bet365 you have the original line like 1 minute or 2 before it changes to make the bet in the original line ( i just put bet as example of how original odds line should be to give you time to make a bet in original line without bot help, if you are a winner they are not an option cause they will limit you)
But if situation still the same and in live original lines last 1 or 2 seconds its totally a disaster that now you cant use bot to make the bet in those 1 or 2 seconds cause do it without bot help is almost impossible, you dont have almost time in 1 or 2 seconds to get the original line without bot help.
And i can also draw this situation for offline bets, in some sports the lines changes sometimes in less than 1 minute after the odds come for betting, how can you fight against ppl who are obs using bots to drop lines? I still dont get if now its not allowed to use bots for absolutely nothing or you can still use them for situations that i am explaining, where you are not really using any bot to defeat their system, you are just using a bot cause original lines last 1 or 2 seconds and its impossible to get them without bots help.
I guess if this is not clearly some of us has to contact pinnacle to clarify the situation.

**Optional** · 01-20-19, 07:34 PM

Originally posted by Atreyu666

That would be fine IF now you have at least 10/20 seconds to do the bet in the original line, for example in bet365 you have the original line like 1 minute or 2 before it changes to make the bet in the original line ( i just put bet as example of how original odds line should be to give you time to make a bet in original line without bot help, if you are a winner they are not an option cause they will limit you)
But if situation still the same and in live original lines last 1 or 2 seconds its totally a disaster that now you cant use bot to make the bet in those 1 or 2 seconds cause do it without bot help is almost impossible, you dont have almost time in 1 or 2 seconds to get the original line without bot help.
And i can also draw this situation for offline bets, in some sports the lines changes sometimes in less than 1 minute after the odds come for betting, how can you fight against ppl who are obs using bots to drop lines? I still dont get if now its not allowed to use bots for absolutely nothing or you can still use them for situations that i am explaining, where you are not really using any bot to defeat their system, you are just using a bot cause original lines last 1 or 2 seconds and its impossible to get them without bots help.
I guess if this is not clearly some of us has to contact pinnacle to clarify the situation.

It sounds to me like they mean that exact situation.

But I may be wrong. Maybe they do not consider that "defeating" their systems.

It certainly cannot hurt for you to ask Pinny. If you are getting bets in in fractions of a second consistently they know you are using a bot anyway.

**Atreyu666** · 01-20-19, 10:36 PM

Originally posted by Optional

It sounds to me like they mean that exact situation.

But I may be wrong. Maybe they do not consider that "defeating" their systems.

It certainly cannot hurt for you to ask Pinny. If you are getting bets in in fractions of a second consistently they know you are using a bot anyway.

In my point of view making 2 max bets with a bot in 2 or 3 seconds is not defeating any sistem or doing any trap? If they have a so sucky liquidity that make original line change in 2/3 seconds what other thing you can do to get the original line?
Whats the fastest way to contact them? Anyways as you are a moderator could you ask them my question and tell me/us the answer?

**Optional** · 01-20-19, 10:41 PM

Originally posted by Atreyu666

In my point of view making 2 max bets with a bot in 2 or 3 seconds is not defeating any sistem or doing any trap? If they have a so sucky liquidity that make original line change in 2/3 seconds what other thing you can do to get the original line?
Whats the fastest way to contact them? Anyways as you are a moderator could you ask them my question and tell me/us the answer?

You can ask yourself. I do not wish to be taking blame for information you decide to deem bad later. Plus I am fairly sure you won't believe me if I say what you don't want to hear anyway.

You will find both live chat and email support links here https://www.pinnacle.com/en/contact-us

**Atreyu666** · 01-21-19, 01:25 AM

Originally posted by Optional

You can ask yourself. I do not wish to be taking blame for information you decide to deem bad later. Plus I am fairly sure you won't believe me if I say what you don't want to hear anyway.

You will find both live chat and email support links here https://www.pinnacle.com/en/contact-us

I asked pinnacle via email, i dont have acc with them atm because i am in not in a welcome country now and their answer:
Dear Client,

Thank you for contacting Pinnacle Customer Service.

Pinnacle identifies and communicates with our clients using the registered email address of their account.

Please resend your email using the registered email address in your account.

Best regards,
Customer Service Department.
So it seems they will not answer me until i do an acc with them,lol? And now i am in not allowed country for them, using agents.
Idk what u are talking about blaming you or not believe what you say if they found what i said like defeating their system anyways.. of course i will believe you, you are a moderator and i am not going to blame you? Lol.. so as you see their answer is that if i dont have acc they will not say.

**AimHigher** · 01-21-19, 01:33 AM

Originally posted by danwinkler

The limits are lower because the volume is not the same, especially on american sports. However, they are still easily a top 5 book.

All of the soccer league limits are dropping dramatically as well. English National League, English League 1, League 2, etc.. The South American leagues were $1000 max on 3-Way, and are now down to $750. I'm alarmed by how much the limits have dropped, just in the past month.

**AimHigher** · 01-21-19, 01:43 AM

Originally posted by pretentiousGuy

LOL. You don't need to worry about a thing, squirt.

Now, this one is interesting(not sure when it was added, definitely wasn't in their early last year). I wonder how often they will enforce it:
Pinnacle has the right to limit, cancel and refuse bets in case they are considered to be too large or if we see that the betting pattern of the player takes place in such a way that the system is being abused.

This is worse:

We reserve the right to refuse, restrict, cancel or limit any wager at any time for whatever reason, including any bet perceived to be placed in a fraudulent manner in order to circumvent our betting limits and/ or our system regulations.

I hope that they keep their winner's welcome policy. It would be a shame if they had to move away from it. Or if they started limiting accounts:

Minimum and maximum wager amounts on all sporting events will be determined by us and are subject to change without prior written notice. We also reserve the right to adjust limits on individual Accounts as well.

**AimHigher** · 01-21-19, 01:52 AM

Originally posted by danwinkler

Pinnacle for a long time allowed bots. This rule is specifically for bot users. I actually suggested to pinnacle customer service they should disallow people from using any automated betting software or bots and they proudly replied that their volume and their system can handle anything and there was no reason for them to disallow them. I didn't like that decision. That was years ago.
Now, they finally made a rule against it. I am happy.

Those bot users beat the good line almost every time. Most of them use bots for arb purposes.

I don't like racing against bots to get the best line. This new rule is golden and should have happened long time ago.

I am guessing their volume is not as good anymore to support bot activity.

That was a very informative post. Thank-you!

And this one too:

Originally posted by vampire assassin

If you have an account profiled sharp, which triggers an automove, you can use it to manipulate a price. You can use a non-profiled account (new) to bet the other side repeatedly. This is cheating.

similarly, if you are a sharp player and keep cycling through accounts to avoid profiling, they may consider it cheating.

They don't mind letting a winning player get one bet. They don't want him to get ten at the same price.

**AimHigher** · 01-21-19, 01:58 AM

Originally posted by ichiro4thehall

First, I should state Pinnacle are the best to have ever done it.

But you are right OP that term as written is way too general. I trust Pinnacle and believe it was meant to prohibit bots, basically. But it does not do this specifically. It states clearly the words 'made use of a system' and although it then lists in brackets examples of bot-user type behaviour, these examples in no way amend the general 'made use of a system' part, they are purely, as stated, examples.

I'd mention this to them and I am sure they willl rewrite this term so that it is focussed precisely on the behaviour Pinnacle wishes to prohibit.

And these two as well:

We reserve the right to refuse, restrict, cancel or limit any wager at any time for whatever reason, including any bet perceived to be placed in a fraudulent manner in order to circumvent our betting limits and/ or our system regulations.

Minimum and maximum wager amounts on all sporting events will be determined by us and are subject to change without prior written notice. We also reserve the right to adjust limits on individual Accounts as well.

All 3 of these rules seem to contradict their "winner's welcome" policy:

Our Winners Welcome policy is very straight-forward. We do not limit, discriminate or close accounts of successful players, and here is why:

Our business model is focused solely on maximising volume irrespective of whether this is generated from profitable players
We need sharp players to help tighten our odds as we do not take positions
We have the confidence in our traders to focus on managing odds, not players

**Atreyu666** · 01-21-19, 01:58 AM

With this new terms&conditions, the limits dropped like crazy in the last months ( in nba live betting from 5k to 3k ) and the crazy wire transfer problem i readed in this forum, things are getting worse and worse with pinnacle.
Something is not going well there, i really hope i am wrong and they will still welcome winning players but the smell of all of this is really bad.
I hope someone with and account in a welcome country for pinnacle can ask the bot thing btw, would be awesome to know if bots are totally not allowed now or you can still using them for things like i said.

**AimHigher** · 01-21-19, 02:08 AM

Originally posted by Atreyu666

That would be fine IF now you have at least 10/20 seconds to do the bet in the original line, for example in bet365 you have the original line like 1 minute or 2 before it changes to make the bet in the original line ( i just put bet as example of how original odds line should be to give you time to make a bet in original line without bot help, if you are a winner they are not an option cause they will limit you)
But if situation still the same and in live original lines last 1 or 2 seconds its totally a disaster that now you cant use bot to make the bet in those 1 or 2 seconds cause do it without bot help is almost impossible, you dont have almost time in 1 or 2 seconds to get the original line without bot help.
And i can also draw this situation for offline bets, in some sports the lines changes sometimes in less than 1 minute after the odds come for betting, how can you fight against ppl who are obs using bots to drop lines? I still dont get if now its not allowed to use bots for absolutely nothing or you can still use them for situations that i am explaining, where you are not really using any bot to defeat their system, you are just using a bot cause original lines last 1 or 2 seconds and its impossible to get them without bots help.
I guess if this is not clearly some of us has to contact pinnacle to clarify the situation.

The new Pinnacle Terms & Conditions:

You are not allowed to use any kind of robots and programmed devices to participate in game play.

**AimHigher** · 01-21-19, 02:13 AM

It seems as though you don't have an account with Pinnacle, yet you are using bots to bet on Pinnacle. I'm confused...

**Atreyu666** · 01-21-19, 02:18 AM

Originally posted by AimHigher

It seems as though you don't have an account with Pinnacle, yet you are using bots to bet on Pinnacle. I'm confused...

I am using an agent to bet on pinny now, was thinking about using a bot in a future because as i said original line in live action in sports like basketball last 1 or 2 seconds and its impossible to get them doing it without bots help.
Btw, could you make a screenshot of new terms&condition where you can read this:
You are not allowed to use any kind of robots and programmed devices to participate in game play.
Thx!

**AimHigher** · 01-21-19, 02:32 AM

You needn't be logged in to see it:

https://www.pinnacle.com/en/termsandconditions/curacao?_ga=2.91016083.822900210.1548051573-560642793.1548051573

Scroll down to "3.5," under "3. Restricted Use"

Or just Ctrl+F and search the page for the word: "bot"

**Atreyu666** · 01-21-19, 02:42 AM

Originally posted by AimHigher

You needn't be logged in to see it:

https://www.pinnacle.com/en/termsandconditions/curacao?_ga=2.91016083.822900210.1548051573-560642793.1548051573

Scroll down to "3.5," under "3. Restricted Use"

Or just Ctrl+F and search the page for the word: "bot"

I see, thx! this new terms are from 2 of january already, but the original lines on live still lasting 1 or 2 seconds, its obvious that ppl still using bots, nothing changed in these days since they put out the new terms and conditions.
I guess that now from an agent maybe you can still use bots to bet on pinny but on pinny official site no? Ill ask tomorrow to my agent about this, but other thing wouldnt have sense cause the only explanation to original lines lasting 1 or 2 seconds is what i am saying, sharp ppl using bots on agents and still ruining lines in 1 or 2 seconds.
Maybe also in pinnacle official site the original lines last more than 1 or 2 seconds but in agents website to bet on pinny they last just 1 or 2 seconds? I dont really know about this last thing.

**Atreyu666** · 01-21-19, 04:15 PM

Pinnacle- Strange things happening there in the last months

Whatever.

**pretentiousGuy** · 01-21-19, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by Atreyu666

We reserve the right to refuse, restrict, cancel or limit any wager at any time for whatever reason, including any bet perceived to be placed in a fraudulent manner in order to circumvent our betting limits and/ or our system regulations.

Minimum and maximum wager amounts on all sporting events will be determined by us and are subject to change without prior written notice. We also reserve the right to adjust limits on individual Accounts as well.

These were in t&c 1.0 since May 6th, 2015. They weren't recently added.

**Atreyu666** · 01-21-19, 04:39 PM

Originally posted by pretentiousGuy

These were in t&c 1.0 since May 6th, 2015. They weren't recently added.

Really? Oh , i see.
I was thinking it was new from terms&conditions!

**Limited** · 01-21-19, 05:00 PM

Something new in Pin TC that we need to know?

**AimHigher** · 01-25-19, 07:54 AM

Did you read the thread?

Either I didn't read the previous T&C, or I don't remember having done so; therefore, I can't say what has changed, and what hasn't. Are you suggesting that nothing is new?