No such thing as a professional poker player

**PAULYPOKER** · 12-09-09, 08:04 AM

Below is a perfect example of how hard it is to hit the big one even if you are playing your cards right you still have to dodge the Jackasses/Donkeys/badplayers/ETC. that lucked their way thus far into the tournament.
Here I will tell you what happened: I was four positions behind the big blind and everybody before me folded I had an ACE QUEEN suited the blinds were I believe $30,000 and $60,000 so i did the norm and raised to $180,000 everybody folded except the big blind he called me flop came ACE FOUR QUEEN three different suits so flush or strait draw odds were slim to none he bet $360,000 i raised to $780,000 he called turn came EIGHT he checked I went all in which was only about $280,000 more he called (mmmm.
as i am writing this i can see where i went wrong but you will see that he had no business being in the the f---inghand ANYWAY! Sorry about the language but this is bringing up nightmares about the situation. Sorry about the curve ball I will get back to the subject now) note his stack was only about 200 thou larger than mine at the beginning of the hand. HERE COMES THE RIVER it's a FOUR. I know you want to know what the jackass had right? Okay you ready? It was a blank --- blankety blanking THREE FOUR OFF F---ING SUIT! Believe me if this was a live tourny I would have gotten up calmly walked over to the other side of the table to Congradulate him and calmly CHOKE HIM OUT COLD! It would have been worth the JAIL sentence because I know that what ever bail that would have been set the good players would have bailed me out for doing such a good deed.I can't believe this the tourny was over three weeks ago and I am still pppiiissseeedddd! You might say I should be happy be cause I won $223.00 but no I have not played since. It's just to frustrating knowing that 1st place paid around $30,000! To me that was a $29,777.00 loss! I believe I was in the tournament for around 9 1/2 hours of sheer torture. which if you figure it out
223 - 11 tourny fee
divided by 9.5 =$22.31 per. hr. that's a crappy investment in my book for the hell you have to go threw.So what if i outlasted over 31,800 players shitty reward for doing so ain't it?

PokerStars Tournament #219010003, No Limit Hold'em
Buy-In: $10.00/$1.00 USD
31928 players
Total Prize Pool: $319280.00 USD
Tournament started 2009/11/15 15:30:00 ET

Dear PAULYPOKER19,

You finished the tournament in 67th place. A USD 223.49 award has been credited to your Real Money account.

You earned 438.94 tournament leader points in this tournament. For information about our tournament leader board, see our web site at *http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/tour.../leader-board/*
*NOTE POKERSTARS LINK IS NOT MY DOING*

Congratulations!
Thank you for participating.

I hope this is useful to all the poker players in this forum
PAULYPOKER

**Ruifgalmeida** · 12-09-09, 10:01 AM

sorry pauly that was realy funny, Ok facts I about 5 friends o live of online poker, Is it a good life? not for me,grinding 12 hours on the computor sotimes more.

**Indecent** · 12-09-09, 10:41 AM

You want people in the pot with you nothing waiting to hit their miracle card. You want him to call your all-in with nothing, because most of the time your hand will hold up and you will win. When it doesn't, it sucks but it's poker.

I paid my way through school playing poker, both live and online. It's not easy to do, but with rakebacks, bonuses, etc, it's completely possible.

Can't win tournaments? Try cash games. Tired of donkeys? Try playing short handed at higher stakes. Or better yet, embrace them and realize they won't suck out on you every time. Don't try to bluff them out, but when you think you have the best hand against a calling station get your value bets in.

**PAULYPOKER** · 12-09-09, 12:04 PM

Ruifgalmeida

ARE THEY RICH? I MEAN MORE MONEY THAN THEY NO WHAT TO DO WITH AND IS IT CONSISTENT?

**Indecent** · 12-09-09, 12:16 PM

Originally posted by PAULYPOKER

ARE THEY RICH? I MEAN MORE MONEY THAN THEY NO WHAT TO DO WITH AND IS IT CONSISTENT?

Is this a requirement for something to be considered "professional"?

**PAULYPOKER** · 12-09-09, 12:18 PM

Indecent

**PAULYPOKER** · 12-09-09, 12:24 PM

Yes

**PAULYPOKER** · 12-09-09, 12:31 PM

Ask yourself. How can luck and professional be as one?
Exactly they can't. But in poker you have to rely on luck to go along with great skills and I mean great. But one without the
other and you will lose the majority of the time.
So this makes professional poker a myth.

**PAULYPOKER** · 12-09-09, 12:39 PM

only difference between
Pro'sand all experienced card players is that they hit that less than 1% streak of luck at the right time and hit the lottery some what the same odds

**PAULYPOKER** · 12-09-09, 01:09 PM

okay can you name a profession that consist of 50% luck 50% skill other than poker
in other words how can you call something that relies on luck around 50% give or take a few % a
profession ?

That's like saying i hit the lottery 4 times so i am a professional lottery player. you see the only way to get there on both of these is to rely on luck one more than the other but take luck away from both and you would never get there period on either one

**Indecent** · 12-09-09, 01:34 PM

Originally posted by PAULYPOKER

only difference between
Pro'sand all experienced card players is that they hit that less than 1% streak of luck at the right time and hit the lottery some what the same odds

Originally posted by PAULYPOKER

okay can you name a profession that consist of 50% luck 50% skill other than poker
in other words how can you call something that relies on luck around 50% give or take a few % a
profession ?

That's like saying i hit the lottery 4 times so i am a professional lottery player. you see the only way to get there on both of these is to rely on luck one more than the other but take luck away from both and you would never get there period on either one

What do you even mean by 1%? Even a 2-outter on the river has about 5% of hitting. Everyone gets lucky, everyone gets unlucky. Poker is a game of imperfect information. It's not a game based strictly on luck or skill as you have said, but I fail to see your point of it being 50/50. Saying it is doesn't make it true.

War (the card game) is a game of 100% luck... either you will win or you won't, you can't change the outcome once the cards are dealt. The lottery is the same, 100% luck. Short of rigging the machine, once you have your numbers you can't change anything, and there is no skill involved in picking the numbers. There are no "hot" numbers or "cold" numbers (again, assuming a fair machine).

Taking your own argument further... Why aren't there professional lottery winners? Professional slots players? Why would poker be the only game where people claim to be "professionals" but are in fact just the luckiest players? Doesn't that seem strange to you? Is it all a big hoax, or is it possible poker is nothing like the lottery, slots, etc?

Poker has some elements of luck, but the fact that most hands end before the river (or end before all-in situations when cards are shown) should tell you something. You can fold the best hand to a bluff, or win with nothing, etc. On any one hand it might come down to whose cards are better, but you are acting like once you have a hand you are compelled to play it to the river no matter what. In the long term, the best players make their own luck by stealing uncontested pots, putting pressure in position, etc, etc.

Honestly, if you think poker is more luck than skill, you don't understand what it takes to play good poker.

**Indecent** · 12-09-09, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by PAULYPOKER

Yes

I hope this isn't in reference to my post about being being a "professional" necessitating "more money than you know what to do with". By this logic, most lawyers, engineers, pharmacists, doctors, etc, are not professionals.

What are they, hobbyists?

**PAULYPOKER** · 12-09-09, 02:35 PM

Indecent

sorry I could not get my point across but I am done arguing

**Indecent** · 12-09-09, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by PAULYPOKER

Indecent

sorry I could not get my point across but I am done arguing

Read this, especially the second article from Howard Lederer. http://gpsts.org/poker-a-game-of-skill

He says what I mean far better than I could.

**PAULYPOKER** · 12-09-09, 03:55 PM

Indecent

**PAULYPOKER** · 12-10-09, 12:23 AM

Indecent
I was reading your post #12 and in your own words you proved my argument true. Here it is:
"Why would poker be the only game where people "claim"

to be "professionals" but are in fact just the luckiest players? "

My point in a nut shell:
luck + skill could never = professional... Only effort + natural talent could = profession

No such thing as a professional poker player

**andrew5** · 12-10-09, 12:35 AM

hey i have made good money off of poker e nuf to give me cigs and beer for a couple of monuths so you high rollers can suck a d ick its all good

**PAULYPOKER** · 12-10-09, 12:41 AM

andrew5

you are

and by the looks of it probably always will be.

**Indecent** · 12-10-09, 02:42 AM

Originally posted by PAULYPOKER

Indecent
I was reading your post #12 and in your own words you proved my argument true. Here it is:
"Why would poker be the only game where people "claim"

to be "professionals" but are in fact just the luckiest players? "

My point in a nut shell:
luck + skill could never = professional... Only effort + natural talent could = profession

No such thing as a professional poker player

No, I didn't mean it as you are reading it. I was following what I thought to be your logic of the best players being the luckiest, and used "claim" since you already established that you did not think they were professionals. Reading your new post now I see I was mistaken in my understanding.

What I meant to ask is if poker is just another game of luck, why is it the only game where there are "professionals"? If it was possible to be a professional in other no skill games, I think someone would have tried to become a professional war card player or professional coin flip winner or professional lottery player by now. Poker being the only instances makes me think it is different from the others.

As I understand your position, it's not about luck vs skill and which is more predominate, it's having luck be any factor at all. Is that correct? What if luck was 10% of the game, would that change anything? 1%? I'm not trying to be rude in asking, just trying to see if my understanding is correct.

If it is, does that apply to all people whose sole form of income is gambling (sports betters, black jack players, etc)? You mentioned money before, would they become a "professional" after exceeding a certain amount of money?

If my understanding is correct, I must say I don't buy your definition of a profession at all, but I can't disagree with luck being a small part of the game. I do think there is plenty of natural talent + effort evident in professional poker players, and feel that despite the existence of luck, the amount of effort and talent (skill) required easily compensates for any degree of luck.

At this point it's just a debate in semantics and what it means to be a "professional".

**lolbear** · 12-10-09, 05:03 PM

no offense but raising 3x the bb with antes is not the norm..

**PAULYPOKER** · 12-10-09, 06:02 PM

Indecent

Okay then lets let professional take a new form of meaning when we refer to poker.
There is no possible way that you can convince me that you can win at poker without some degree of luck therefore no matter how great your poker skills are you can never win without it ever and i know you and i can both agree that luck comes and goes on its own with no human control.

**PAULYPOKER** · 12-10-09, 06:23 PM

Indecent
I notice you mentioned sports betting in post #20
Now this is the only form of gambling that can be labeled as professional because if you are knowledgeable enough about it you do not have to rely on luck what so ever period.
GO TO MY LINK BELOW IF YOU ARE INTO SPORTS BETTING
YOU MIGHT FIND THE INFO HELPFUL MANY MATURE SUCCESSFUL SPORTS BETTERS
POSTED IN THIS THREAD IGNORE THE CHILDISH POST'S FROM THE MATH WIZARDS
FROM THINK TANK
PS*LINK DOES NOT WORK YOU WILL HAVE TO GO THERE MANUALLY*

*who has the best set of rules they follow for sports betting? POST AND VOTE NOW.+
( 1 2 3) PAULYPOKER

Yesterday 02:52 PM
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101 1,146 Players Talk <this link="" works
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**PAULYPOKER** · 12-10-09, 06:26 PM

lolbear

V.I.P.

**Indecent** · 12-10-09, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by PAULYPOKER

Okay then lets let professional take a new form of meaning when we refer to poker.
There is no possible way that you can convince me that you can win at poker without some degree of luck therefore no matter how great your poker skills are you can never win without it ever and i know you and i can both agree that luck comes and goes on its own with no human control.

But how many hands/decisions come down just luck?

If you are heads up on the flop, an aggressive player bets into you, and you think he's just on a continuation bet. If you raise and he folds, were you lucky that you were right? Or was he unlucky that he was wrong?

At any rate, if there's no possible way I shouldn't even bother trying, right?

Originally posted by PAULYPOKER

Indecent
I notice you mentioned sports betting in post #20
Now this is the only form of gambling that can be labeled as professional because if you are knowledgeable enough about it you do not have to rely on luck what so ever period.

I'm not sure how you can make the jump form saying poker requires luck but sports betting doesn't.... How can this be possible? What makes sports betting different from all other types of gambling?

**byronbb** · 12-10-09, 07:07 PM

http://www.pokertableratings.com/stars-player-search/nanonoko

This guys been getting lucky for 2 million hands.

**PAULYPOKER** · 12-10-09, 07:11 PM

Now you are talking a whole different game because if you are in a heads up match
the better player will usually prevail therefore you could label him professional but even then luck is still involved to the minute degree

**PAULYPOKER** · 12-10-09, 07:14 PM

byronbb

You lost me your point is?

**Indecent** · 12-10-09, 07:31 PM

Originally posted by PAULYPOKER

Now you are talking a whole different game because if you are in a heads up match
the better player will usually prevail therefore you could label him professional but even then luck is still involved to the minute degree

It's only skillful enough to be considered professional if there are two people?

I think I'm done here, you keep changing your opinion and it's getting clear you either don't know what you are trying to say or you just can't put the words together to express is properly. Either way, it's a waste.

**PAULYPOKER** · 12-10-09, 07:36 PM

Indecent

Fair enough DITTO

PAULYPOKER

**vyomguy** · 12-10-09, 08:01 PM

Poker is 80% luck and 20% skill. I have seen top pros play...and they play real bad when they are not running good. I have seen howard lederer make so many mistakes.

FYI, I have been a successful poker player and I don't mind admitting that I have been lucky. Very few successful poker players admit it...but they know it.

On the other hand you cant be really bad and expect to win purely on luck. You do need that 20% skill required...like reading people, analysing hands, calculating outs and odds etc...

If I had to choose between risking my money on poker versus sports betting, I would choose sports betting as there is very less amount of luck involved....and you can consistently win money. Poker has lot of luck which involves lot of big swings in terms of money...one day you can be up by 10k and the other day down by 20k.

The most important difference I see between the poker and sports betting is the TILT FACTOR. In poker you can go on tilt easily and loose all of your money in few hands. In sports betting, there might be some form of tilt..but not to the extent of poker.

So, in conclusion..poker is more than 80% luck...no doubt about it. There is some level of skill level involved. But can you rely on poker for consistently making money over long term...HELL NO...there are major swings in poker all the time. I have seen gus hansen loose 2 million in 2 days and win back the same money in 1 day...and he is one of the biggest donks out there...anyone who has seen him play would agree. And he is a so called pro.

On the other hand, can you rely on sports betting for consistently making money over long term...HELL YES. Very less amount of luck is involved here. I know you cant hit 90-100%

**PAULYPOKER** · 12-10-09, 09:05 PM

vyomguy

Very good post I admire your honesty

PAULYPOKER

PS you can go on tilt on sports betting to but not as easy as poker
Reason: in sports betting if you lose it's because you are either to lazy or stupid to figure out why most gamblers don't know this so that's how they end up going on TILT/ and in poker they go on TILT because they can't believe their luck turned for the worst so they want to see it happen again. Definition of insanity:"someone who does the same thing over and over again expecting a different result"

**keyboarding** · 12-10-09, 09:18 PM

Originally posted by PAULYPOKER

I believe I was in the tournament for around 9 1/2 hours of sheer torture.

**FishFace5** · 12-10-09, 09:26 PM

.

**wtf** · 12-10-09, 09:41 PM

good thread!