The Best Pitcher Ever

[jellobiafra]

I hope you guys will allow me a little indulgence tonight. I think it it's appropriate to have at least one thread dedicated to the best pitcher of our lifetime, and possibly the best pitcher ever, on the night his number was retired in Atlanta. I'm a Braves fan, but I think it's hard for anybody to dispute this fact. You can talk Clemems (steroids) or Gibson (raised mound) or even Cy Young (credit for decisions on every game started).... but I think Greg Maddux was the best pitcher of all time. It gets lost.....when I see these stats I just can't believe them still... how absolutely dominant he was.

In 1994 he had an ERA of 1.53.

In 1995 his ERA was 1.63.


I'm still speechless whenever I see those numbers. 351 wins.

We may have taken him for granted, but I want to acknowledge him here. Best there ever was and the best there will ever be. Greg Freakin Maddux.

[tacomax]

Stop smoking crack and retire for the night. Take a big glass of water to bed with you so you won't feel bad in the morning.

[jellobiafra]

Taco...do you have an actual opinion about a matter involving sports? I'd love to read it if you do.

[tacomax]

My opinion was in my post albeit cryptically which you might not have fully understood. Although very good, he's not the greatest pitcher ever - I think you're in a minority on that point. I don't think he was as good as Cy Young although Maddux does have 4 more Cy Young awards that Cy Young ever managed.

[tb10]

lol

[jellobiafra]

Well, like I referenced in the post - when Cy Young pitched the starting pitcher was given credit for decisions on every game he started. If you wanna say Cy Young was a better pitcher than Greg Maddux or Roger Clemens or even Roy Halladay based on the fact that he had 500 and some wins alone, then that's fine. You can also school me on the matter of Bronco Nagurski being a better running back than Barry Sanders while you're at it. I'm sure that Cy Young was facing a bunch of roided monsters like Barry Bonds and Ken Caminiti night in and night out in 1895 too. I'm cerain all you need to do is compare wins between the two to determine Cy Young was the better pitcher. Very deep analysis. Thanks for correcting me on that score.

[flyingillini]

Best pitcher ever would be hands down Christy Mathewson or Walter Johnson.

[tb10]

who has the record for most homers in 3 consecutive seasons?/

[Chi_archie]

best pitcher for a 5-6 year period...


Sandy Koufax

[Team Ramrod]

Bob Gibson blows Maddux out of the water

[tacomax]

If you wanna say Cy Young was a bette pitcher than Greg Maddux or Roger Clemens or even Roy Halladay based on the fact that he had 500 and some wins alone, then that's fine.

I love the way that you are saying that Maddux is the best pitcher ever but only comparing him to one current and one recently active pitcher who aren't even in the Hall Of Fame; the former of which may never get there and the latter who hasn't proved himself sufficiently to get there. There were a lot of pitchers pitching before 1984, you know.

[jellobiafra]

Illini, those guys were fantastic pitchers. Of course Cy Young was too. But can we really say they would be today? Would George Mikan dominate the NBA today? Would Sonny Jurgenson dominate the NFL? We all know (or shoud know) that the modern athlete is head and shoulders above the relics of the past. These guys today train 365 days a year. Those guys had jobs during the offseason. They didnn't know anything about conditioning or wieght training. Don't even get me started on the exclusion of the balck athlete from their leagues.

I mean....seriously guys. Are we really talking Cy Young better than Maddux, Clemens and Ryan?

[Chi_archie]

if you wanna say cy young was the best based on his won-loss record...


than he was also the worst... no one has lost more...

[jellobiafra]

Taco.... I'm paying tribute to my favorite athlete of all time on the night his number was retired. But still... a 1.53 and 1.64 ERA in back to back years in the mid 90's!!!! Think about that? When you compare it to Gibson vs league ERA when he pitched and Maddux vs league ERA when he pitched.... I'm not pulling this outta my ass. A lot of baseball historians consider Maddux the best EVER.

[flyingillini]

Disagree, if there is one thing I know in life it is pre war baseball and the players. Those 2 would dominate in today's game.

[Chi_archie]

sosa 3 years.... old record before roids, might have been kiner

[Chi_archie]

give me maddux's best 4 straight years against Koufax's

[jellobiafra]

best pitcher for a 5-6 year period...


Sandy Koufax

Absolutely

[tacomax]

Taco.... I'm paying tribute to my favorite athlete of all time on the night his number was retired.

You have now introduced an element of bias into your argument.

A lot of baseball historians consider Maddux the best EVER.

The presenter from ESPN doesn't count.

[jellobiafra]

Disagree, if there is one thing I know in life it is pre war baseball and the players. Those 2 would dominate in today's game.

Did either one ever have a 1.56 or a 1.63 ERA... much less in back to back seasons. Much less facing the caliber of year round athlete/hitter that the modern day pitcher faces?

[Chi_archie]

I'd say Maddux did more with less talent than any other athlete i've ever seen in person.

Guy was a surgeon, unreal consistency. and those early 90's years with the Braves were auto-wins basically. class act too

[jellobiafra]

You have now introduced an element of bias into your argument.



The presenter from ESPN doesn't count.

I never made any secret of that. Read the OP. I said I was a Brave's fan and I was paying tribute on the night his number was retired in ATL.

[Chi_archie]

old school pitchers also played with a mush ball.....

[BadNina]

I think Maddux is easily top 10 if not top 5. How many years did he have at least 15 wins? And 3 years with no pass balls? He had amazing control. The Braves pitching in the 90's was something else.

[jellobiafra]

give me maddux's best 4 straight years against Koufax's

Koufax struck out more and probably won more, but Maddux's ERA was RIDICULOUS.

[jellobiafra]

I think Maddux is easily top 10 if not top 5. How many years did he have at least 15 wins? And 3 years with no pass balls? He had amazing control. The Braves pitching in the 90's was something else.

I think 16 straight. I'd have to look it up.


EDIT:

17 straight.


WOW. Again.... the crux of my point is we take him for granted. 15 years from now you all are going to look back at his numbers and realize what we we were lucky enough to have witnessed.

[tacomax]

I never made any secret of that. Read the OP. I said I was a Brave's fan and I was paying tribute on the night his number was retired in ATL.

Why didn't you mention Randy Johnson as a basis of your argument? Won the Cy Young Award 4 years in a row. Better W/L ratio than Maddux and a heck of a lot more strikeouts.

[BadNina]

Sorry to have ruined my image and actually speak about something sports related.

[Team Ramrod]

Maddux was an excellent placement pitcher

[tacomax]

I think Maddux is easily top 10 if not top 5.

Don't let your Dad hear you say that.

He had amazing control.

So do I, baby.

[tacomax]

Sorry to have ruined my image and actually speak about something sports related.

I'm sorry too.

[Team Ramrod]

Gibson had 1.12 era in 68

[Chi_archie]

Koufax had
1.88
1.74
2.04
1.73

over about 6 years worth of innings 1192 innings with 1228 SO's and a 97-27 record with 3 no hitters and 1 perfect game

maddux's best 4 years would be
1.56
1.63
2.72
2.20

over 888 innings for a 69-23 record with 686 so's

[BadNina]

Don't let your Dad hear you say that.

You think there is any Braves/Astro rivalry going on in our family?

So do I, baby.

ok...that just made me giggle.

[jellobiafra]

Gibson had 1.12 era in 68

Yep. They lowered the mound the next season because of the dominant pitching. The league ERA was in the 3's too. When Maddux was throwing 1.5 and 1.6 the league ERA was a full run higher. So comparably speaking Maddux's stats were more impressive.