Horse Racing questions and answers

[Easy-Rider 66]

Well he kind of did stop riding, in that, it was not really doing any good. The horse was balking , kind of like a car that is still going but hesitating when you step on the gas. He was coaxing, but he knew he had enough room still to win. But the horse caused all the fuss.

I spend the time I do breaking this stuff down because I am hopeful that when you, and all the readers go back and watch the replay, you will be able to see some of the things I am talking about. When that happens, you are really seeing things most can't see. In pro football, we watch a game but if you watched one with a former NFL quarterback, those guys can see the formations, the subtleties of where the safeties are, who is in motion dong what, and they can tell you what play is coming, or what the QB is switching off to, and where the ball is going, before the play starts. It is truly remarkable what all they can see, that we cannot.
So, I try and pass that along for you guys so that maybe you will see some of these subtleties, that most do not, and it will make for a better understanding of a game so many including myself, love.
I hope it helps.

Thanks EZ !

[Easy-Rider 66]

[Easy-Rider 66]

Hey STR: one more opinion for now whenever you get a chance. The race in question is from Turfway Park. Race #4. The horse is the #2 Counterstrike. If you can tell me what you see especially last furlong or 2 would appreciate it. The vid is the whole card so you would need to scroll up to race #4. The Rider was Tyler Heard. Never heard of him and not sure if he is a BUG. THX STR.

[str]

Hey STR: one more opinion for now whenever you get a chance. The race in question is from Turfway Park. Race #4. The horse is the #2 Counterstrike. If you can tell me what you see especially last furlong or 2 would appreciate it. The vid is the whole card so you would need to scroll up to race #4. The Rider was Tyler Heard. Never heard of him and not sure if he is a BUG. THX STR.

This jockey totally blew the race. I looked him up. It says he has only ridden 29 starts but he is not getting the weight allowance a bug rider would get. I think I'm missing something.
A couple of things about what I saw other than he blew it. He looks like a strong rider. He looks like he has been well taught. I think he has talent. He is probably going to be fine in the long run.

But... if that was my horse, and you have to remember, no matter how pissed you might be in the moment, and with good cause, if indeed this kid is young, you can't just go bat crap crazy. Hopefully, the words that the trainer said would be something like, " there is no sense in looking around if you don't know what you are looking at".
When horses fan out as they straighten away for home, they almost always have horse and will make their run. Not a lot of sense in fanning out if you are on a dead horse. So when he looked to his right, what the heck did he see? They were right there. And both were coming. The fact that he sat after looking was a big mental error. Gotta think he will be a better rider for it but if you bet on the horse, that had to hurt.
Feel free to follow up if necessary.
Thanks EZ.

[Easy-Rider 66]

OK STR that is what I thought as well. I did not have real $$ on the #2 but did post him in the contest thread. So no big deal. Hopefully a learning experience for Tyler Heard. thx again.

[Madison]

Any thoughts on Repo Rocks? Just romped at AQ R8. Horse has awoken of recent?

[str]

Any thoughts on Repo Rocks? Just romped at AQ R8. Horse has awoken of recent?

The Stymie. What a race that is rich in history. Bold Ruler, Kelso twice. A list of nice ones for sure. Stymie was a former 1,500 claimer that rose to be a great horse.
As for the horse, I don't follow the older horses like I used to as the three year olds are getting all the attention these days prior to the Derby.
Always cool to see an older horse "get good" and this one fits that description. There will be plenty of races for this horse to run in coming up. Hope he stays sharp . It will be fun to see him ascend if he can. I don't know where his ceiling is but he will certainly have his chances.
Hope you bet him Madison.
Thanks for checking in.

[Madison]

The Stymie. What a race that is rich in history. Bold Ruler, Kelso twice. A list of nice ones for sure. Stymie was a former 1,500 claimer that rose to be a great horse.
As for the horse, I don't follow the older horses like I used to as the three year olds are getting all the attention these days prior to the Derby.
Always cool to see an older horse "get good" and this one fits that description. There will be plenty of races for this horse to run in coming up. Hope he stays sharp . It will be fun to see him ascend if he can. I don't know where his ceiling is but he will certainly have his chances.
Hope you bet him Madison.
Thanks for checking in.

Thanks Str. No I passed as the bet him like he was Secretariat. Amazing turnaround.

[JBEX]

hey str

I'm sure you're aware of rick dutrow being
given his trainer's license back by the state of ny..know you have spoken often about him and the unfair circumstances (you'd probably use stronger terms) that led to his suspension ..any commentary related to him would be interesting when you have the time

[JBEX]

also want to mention mott is running "shadow dragon" (by army mule)in the fountain of youth on saturday..no surprise with the way he ran in the "holy bull" the race before


12-1 ml along withe horse who beat him (also a mott trainee) at the same odds ..not capping the AM races as I mentioned once before

[str]

hey str

I'm sure you're aware of rick dutrow being
given his trainer's license back by the state of ny..know you have spoken often about him and the unfair circumstances (you'd probably use stronger terms) that led to his suspension ..any commentary related to him would be interesting when you have the time

also want to mention mott is running "shadow dragon" (by army mule)in the fountain of youth on saturday..no surprise with the way he ran in the "holy bull" the race before


12-1 ml along withe horse who beat him (also a mott trainee) at the same odds ..not capping the AM races as I mentioned once before

Sorry for the delay JBEX.

Pretty sure I will be able to respond properly tomorrow.

All good but a crazy couple of days.

[JBEX]

Sorry for the delay JBEX.

Pretty sure I will be able to respond properly tomorrow.

All good but a crazy couple of days.

no problem str..whenever you are able

[JBEX]

also want to mention mott is running "shadow dragon" (by army mule)in the fountain of youth on saturday..no surprise with the way he ran in the "holy bull" the race before


12-1 ml along withe horse who beat him (also a mott trainee) at the same odds ..not capping the AM races as I mentioned once before

correction here ..the other bill mott "rocket can" is 8-1 ml ..sorry

[str]

also want to mention mott is running "shadow dragon" (by army mule)in the fountain of youth on saturday..no surprise with the way he ran in the "holy bull" the race before


12-1 ml along withe horse who beat him (also a mott trainee) at the same odds ..not capping the AM races as I mentioned once before

correction here ..the other bill mott "rocket can" is 8-1 ml ..sorry

That makes sense. He did win that last race.

[str]

hey str

I'm sure you're aware of rick dutrow being
given his trainer's license back by the state of ny..know you have spoken often about him and the unfair circumstances (you'd probably use stronger terms) that led to his suspension ..any commentary related to him would be interesting when you have the time

Well I sure am glad for Rick and his family that his suspension is over. 10 years is a long time. And no need to go over all that mess. I already have in here and it is behind us all now.

Rick will have a lot of work ahead of him just to get started. He needs to apply for stalls. No easy feat in NY these days. So how many stalls can he get right off the bat? And will he be all at one track or split up over two tracks? That is pretty important.

Also, he needs to fill ALL the working positions from asst. trainer/ foreman on down which includes grooms, exercise riders, and hot walkers. And you just cannot go get anybody. The key is and always has been, good help. Trustworthy experienced people. They don't grow on trees.
I think getting owners will be much easier than getting the proper personnel to do the daily work. All of this will take time but Rick will get it straightened out.

All Rick has wanted to do since he was about 15 years old, is go to the barn every morning, be around the horses and work. He gets the chance to do that now. I am so happy for him, his mom and his brothers and family.

I wish him nothing but the best.

[Easy-Rider 66]

Well I sure am glad for Rick and his family that his suspension is over. 10 years is a long time. And no need to go over all that mess. I already have in here and it is behind us all now.

Rick will have a lot of work ahead of him just to get started. He needs to apply for stalls. No easy feat in NY these days. So how many stalls can he get right off the bat? And will he be all at one track or split up over two tracks? That is pretty important.

Also, he needs to fill ALL the working positions from asst. trainer/ foreman on down which includes grooms, exercise riders, and hot walkers. And you just cannot go get anybody. The key is as always has been, good help. Trustworthy experienced people. They don't grow on trees.
I think getting owners will be much easier than getting the proper personnel to do the daily work. All of this will take time but Rick will get it straightened out.

All Rick has wanted to do since he was about 15 years old, is go to the barn every morning, be around the horses and work. He gets the chance to do that now. I am so happy for him, his mom and his brothers and family.

I wish him nothing but the best.

Good look to Mr. Dutrow. Will be following his progress. THX STR.

[str]

hey str

I'm sure you're aware of rick dutrow being
given his trainer's license back by the state of ny..know you have spoken often about him and the unfair circumstances (you'd probably use stronger terms) that led to his suspension ..any commentary related to him would be interesting when you have the time

Thanks for that question JBEX.

I really appreciate that.

[JBEX]

Thanks for that question JBEX.

I really appreciate that.

no problem str ..obviously knew it was something that would be of great interest to you

think he'll attract good talent to work under him and understand,as you said, it's not just about filling positions..also sure he'll get some nice horses and my guess would be have at least one owner who wants to claim a few

Know because of your family ties it means a lot to you that he's back..I think it's just a matter of time and he'll be a major player again..hopefully an Army Mule or two in his future lol ..like to see him get to work with one

[JBEX]

hey str

like to get your opinion on my last post in the ky derby future thread regarding kingsbarns ..was thinking after I posted about what you said regarding watching the horse instead of evaluating the competition
in the race (his last alw @ tampa) ..maybe that would play into it should they decide to go the louisiana path to the ky derby..in other words,in spite of what looked like too easy a race, todd may have felt that the he got enough out of that race to keep positive momentum going forward

[str]

hey str

like to get your opinion on my last post in the ky derby future thread regarding kingsbarns ..was thinking after I posted about what you said regarding watching the horse instead of evaluating the competition
in the race (his last alw @ tampa) ..maybe that would play into it should they decide to go the louisiana path to the ky derby..in other words,in spite of what looked like too easy a race, todd may have felt that the he got enough out of that race to keep positive momentum going forward

Here is what you wrote in the futures post :

"kingsbarns..

broke his maiden 1st out at GP at the 1 turn mile in january..tough distance and layout especially for a debut

back in 4 weeks wins an alw at tampa bay impressively..but that's pretty easy

so if he goes in the louisiana derby that'll be a 6 week break
and then 7 weeks to the ky derby should he run well and they decide to do that (don't think they'd run in-between that)

imo ,factoring the type of races he was involved in and the spacing, that's a very light schedule approaching the ky derby .. todd must think a lot of the horse to condider running him off that series of preps


will be interesting to see what develops the next few weeks"



A. So in this situation, Todd had several and maybe more, that back in November, were potential Derby candidates. Along the way from then until May, some will fall off that list and maybe one gets added. Who knows ? So, the mindset is typically, you have to run your name OFF the list or run your name ON the list. For that reason, I mentioned that in a case like Kingsbarns , when a race is a setup for a future event, you have to watch the horse more so than the race. Let's face it, it he ran 3rd and got beat 5 lengths with no excuses, he would have run himself OFF that list. Then, he would have had to run a sensational race or two to get back on a list for maybe a later TC race or big event.

But he did his job. The competition cannot be his fault and who knows how good they are? They might all come back and win and be nice horses, or, all below par. All Kingsbarns can do is deal with himself. And because he passed that test, he will now get another opportunity to stay on the Derby trail in the La. Derby I assume.

Did he get enough out of that race? Yes. He came back fairly quickly to stay on schedule and did just fine. Him getting a couple of extra weeks off two races in about a month ( I think), makes perfect sense. If he does his job in the La. Derby, he gets a nice 7 weeks before the Derby. Is all this ideal? No. Todd probably wanted to run him sooner in his 1st race but for whatever reason, he could not. So, he is now playing the hand he is dealt.

As for Gulfstream, Forte has earned his chance to be the number one seed, so to speak. He gets the clear path without shipping until May. Todd is moving all the others around to reach a common goal, Ky. on the 1st Saturday, but Forte has the straight line forward . That tells you that not only has he earned it, but he has been at the top of the list for some time now.

That's how I see it.

Hope that makes sense.

[JBEX]

Here is what you wrote in the futures post :

"kingsbarns..

broke his maiden 1st out at GP at the 1 turn mile in january..tough distance and layout especially for a debut

back in 4 weeks wins an alw at tampa bay impressively..but that's pretty easy

so if he goes in the louisiana derby that'll be a 6 week break
and then 7 weeks to the ky derby should he run well and they decide to do that (don't think they'd run in-between that)

imo ,factoring the type of races he was involved in and the spacing, that's a very light schedule approaching the ky derby .. todd must think a lot of the horse to condider running him off that series of preps


will be interesting to see what develops the next few weeks"



A. So in this situation, Todd had several and maybe more, that back in November, were potential Derby candidates. Along the way from then until May, some will fall off that list and maybe one gets added. Who knows ? So, the mindset is typically, you have to run your name OFF the list or run your name ON the list. For that reason, I mentioned that in a case like Kingsbarns , when a race is a setup for a future event, you have to watch the horse more so than the race. Let's face it, it he ran 3rd and got beat 5 lengths with no excuses, he would have run himself OFF that list. Then, he would have had to run a sensational race or two to get back on a list for maybe a later TC race or big event.

But he did his job. The competition cannot be his fault and who knows how good they are? They might all come back and win and be nice horses, or, all below par. All Kingsbarns can do is deal with himself. And because he passed that test, he will now get another opportunity to stay on the Derby trail in the La. Derby I assume.

Did he get enough out of that race? Yes. He came back fairly quickly to stay on schedule and did just fine. Him getting a couple of extra weeks off two races in about a month ( I think), makes perfect sense. If he does his job in the La. Derby, he gets a nice 7 weeks before the Derby. Is all this ideal? No. Todd probably wanted to run him sooner in his 1st race but for whatever reason, he could not. So, he is now playing the hand he is dealt.

As for Gulfstream, Forte has earned his chance to be the number one seed, so to speak. He gets the clear path without shipping until May. Todd is moving all the others around to reach a common goal, Ky. on the 1st Saturday, but Forte has the straight line forward . That tells you that not only has he earned it, but he has been at the top of the list for some time now.

That's how I see it.

Hope that makes sense.

think this is a big point to take away from what you said..ideally this is not how the connections wanted it to go (path-wise) but for reasons having to do with the horse they felt it was the best alternative..it would be hard not to take a shot at the derby with a solid final prep under him..I think if he finishes 2nd or possibly even 1st and beats what is considered to be a not-so-great field (assuming it's the la.derby) they'd probably be better off waiting for the preakness..but as you know that's not how it usually goes when it comes to the big race..you want to be in it

point about watching the horse more important than the competition makes sense in that tampa allowance race..he's looking for much bigger things down the road and just wants an optimal performance in the race which he certainly gave..also possible ,as you said that there was some talent ,yet shown,in that race

agree with forte..finishes up in the florida derby and if all's well onto kentucky..no shipping which is the ideal scenario



thanks str

[JBEX]

hey str


do you think the la derby being run @ 1 3/16th may possibly have to do with the fact it's run earlier than the other major preps ?? 1 week before ark derby and 2 weeks before the wood and bluegrass..any logic to the longer distance somewhat neutralizes the extra time off to the derby ?

[str]

hey str


do you think the la derby being run @ 1 3/16th may possibly have to do with the fact it's run earlier than the other major preps ?? 1 week before ark derby and 2 weeks before the wood and bluegrass..any logic to the longer distance somewhat neutralizes the extra time off to the derby ?

That race has just recently added length to 1 3/16's. It not was that distance before I guess 3-4 years ago?

The La. Derby has long been one of several paths to the Ky. Derby and the added week might have something to do with why the powers to be, decided to make the race longer. Maybe they felt they needed to be just a bit of a different path than the other derby preps?

I never heard an official reason why they changed it but I really didn't dig to try and find out either.

It poses an interesting angle for the handicappers though doesn't it? If you training a speed type horse, do you want to run him that distance prior to the Ky. Derby? But if everyone with early speed goes elsewhere aren't you running into the teeth of hot paces elsewhere? And a slow pace in this race?
I guess it becomes the old cat and mouse game between trainers/ owners trying to find the correct spots for their horses.

It certainly adds a twist I had not thought about before.

As for the distance neutralizing the extra time off, I think it depends on what the horse that runs in it gets caught up in. Hot pace, slow pace, etc.
My first reaction would be that I might want to be coming off a 1 1/8th race instead of the extra 1/16th. But looking at it from the trainers side, after I think about it, all I am envisioning is all the things that could go wrong. Lolol. The old miserable, never show you are satisfied, trainer pessimism. Haha.

Old habits die hard I guess.

Good question JBEX.

Thanks.

[JBEX]

That race has just recently added length to 1 3/16's. It not was that distance before I guess 3-4 years ago?

The La. Derby has long been one of several paths to the Ky. Derby and the added week might have something to do with why the powers to be, decided to make the race longer. Maybe they felt they needed to be just a bit of a different path than the other derby preps?

I never heard an official reason why they changed it but I really didn't dig to try and find out either.

It poses an interesting angle for the handicappers though doesn't it? If you training a speed type horse, do you want to run him that distance prior to the Ky. Derby? But if everyone with early speed goes elsewhere aren't you running into the teeth of hot paces elsewhere? And a slow pace in this race?
I guess it becomes the old cat and mouse game between trainers/ owners trying to find the correct spots for their horses.

It certainly adds a twist I had not thought about before.

As for the distance neutralizing the extra time off, I think it depends on what the horse that runs in it gets caught up in. Hot pace, slow pace, etc.
My first reaction would be that I might want to be coming off a 1 1/8th race instead of the extra 1/16th. But looking at it from the trainers side, after I think about it, all I am envisioning is all the things that could go wrong. Lolol. The old miserable, never show you are satisfied, trainer pessimism. Haha.

Old habits die hard I guess.

Good question JBEX.

Thanks.

no problem str and appreciate feedback

I kind of agree in general about not wanting a speed horse to try that extra distance especially if it figures to be a fast or above avg pace..seems like that could really take too much out where-as a nice slightly off the pace run might be a benefit
going forward

this will be the 4th year it's run at this distance..here's a short article explaining it from tdn

https://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/fair-grounds-adjusts-derby-prep-distances/

[Madison]

Appreciate your gentleman's Indepth insight into the game.

[JBEX]

Appreciate your gentleman's Indepth insight into the game.

thanks for the good word madison

[str]

Appreciate your gentleman's Indepth insight into the game.

Thank you Madison.

It's fun to think back to those type of situations.

In my case it wasn't Derby's it was claimers , starter handicaps, etc.

But it was always a challenge I enjoyed.

Another little game within the game.

[mcaulay777]

I noticed the Ntra contest is going on this weekend.I remember when it started late 90's.I was playing big time at the time living in Phoenix i was making good money at the track then did not know about contest playing so never entered one my friend del mar brian loved contest he finished third in 2000 but was dqed to 3rd because he played a extra race.Is it still as big as it used to be or is it a nishe and it is the same people.I never tried in my pro horseplaying days because i just wanted to win money.

[JBEX]

I noticed the Ntra contest is going on this weekend.I remember when it started late 90's.I was playing big time at the time living in Phoenix i was making good money at the track then did not know about contest playing so never entered one my friend del mar brian loved contest he finished third in 2000 but was dqed to 3rd because he played a extra race.Is it still as big as it used to be or is it a nishe and it is the same people.I never tried in my pro horseplaying days because i just wanted to win money.

seems from what I casually have read in the media that it's something that has grown in popularity over the years ..I don't know specifics though

[str]

I noticed the Ntra contest is going on this weekend.I remember when it started late 90's.I was playing big time at the time living in Phoenix i was making good money at the track then did not know about contest playing so never entered one my friend del mar brian loved contest he finished third in 2000 but was dqed to 3rd because he played a extra race.Is it still as big as it used to be or is it a nishe and it is the same people.I never tried in my pro horseplaying days because i just wanted to win money.

seems from what I casually have read in the media that it's something that has grown in popularity over the years ..I don't know specifics though

One of my high school friends that I go to the track with and have talked about several times in here, has been doing these contests for about 10 years now. From what he tells me, it is nothing like an actual outing at the track. You have to take deep shots according to the leader board to try and climb. Especially late in the card.
I think it is something that you need to learn how to manage your money for this exact contest which is totally different from when you would normally go to the track.
Have to say he really likes playing in them . He travels around several times a year to attend. Apparently, they are very popular.
Other than that, I do not know much about them. I never participated.
All the best.

[JBEX]

hey str

if you're not aware "xtra heat" passed away a few days ago..lot's of MD connections with her as you probably know..good article you might like

https://paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/scheinman-remembering-hall-of-famer-xtra-heat-horse-of-a-lifetime/?fbclid=PAAaaXB77v8XUljMJFaCKhtcsxAttbBX4JPTh4Rg2WtEZ3WvG29dgbagfK8-I

[JBEX]

hey str

if you're not aware "xtra heat" passed away a few days ago..lot's of MD connections with her as you probably know..good article you might like


https://paulickreport.com/news/ray-s...vG29dgbagfK8-I

think I could've assumed you weren't lol

[str]

hey str

if you're not aware "xtra heat" passed away a few days ago..lot's of MD connections with her as you probably know..good article you might like


https://paulickreport.com/news/ray-s...vG29dgbagfK8-I

think I could've assumed you weren't lol

Thanks JBEX. No, I was not aware. Do appreciate you letting me know. Man could she run. And 5k at the Timonium sale ! Unreal.

I read the article. Didn't notice who wrote it but would have guessed John Scheinman from the way it was written. He is really good. I know him a little. It showed his style when he called John, Big old dumb John Salzman. He later explains how far that is from the truth. And he sure is right about that. You don't have the success John had without being damn good at what you do. And he was.

Cool thing about the picture in the winners circle is seeing Rick Wilson smiling ear to ear. Rick is a Great guy who got real banged up in a spill. It was bad. So happy for him. Real good guy.
Also, I even recognized one of the fans in the background. Lol. ( I always look and see if I know the fans). He was a Laurel regular from back in the day. Never knew his name he he was there a lot.

Great success story for all involved. Oh, and that owner. He was fast as a deer on the base paths playing in the track softball league. Lol. Man the stuff that pops into my mind when I see those old pics.

Thanks again JBEX. Appreciate it as always.

[JBEX]

Thanks JBEX. No, I was not aware. Do appreciate you letting me know. Man could she run. And 5k at the Timonium sale ! Unreal.

I read the article. Didn't notice who wrote it but would have guessed John Scheinman from the way it was written. He is really good. I know him a little. It showed his style when he called John, Big old dumb John Salzman. He later explains how far that is from the truth. And he sure is right about that. You don't have the success John had without being damn good at what you do. And he was.

Cool thing about the picture in the winners circle is seeing Rick Wilson smiling ear to ear. Rick is a Great guy who got real banged up in a spill. It was bad. So happy for him. Real good guy.
Also, I even recognized one of the fans in the background. Lol. ( I always look and see if I know the fans). He was a Laurel regular from back in the day. Never knew his name he he was there a lot.

Great success story for all involved. Oh, and that owner. He was fast as a deer on the base paths playing in the track softball league. Lol. Man the stuff that pops into my mind when I see those old pics.

Thanks again JBEX. Appreciate it as always.

no problem str

you got the writer correct..has a nice style of doing it which I always admire as it's always been a weakness with me

you've talked about salzman a few times and I think once I asked you a question about him..said he liked to work with babies and develop good sprinters if I remember correctly..obviously this is the type of horse you never expect to get even if you shell out big bucks let alone $5k..my guess would be he had at least some of the say in making the purchase


I always remember from the early simulcast days that rick wilson was one of the long time, elite riders on the md circuit (along with prado and luzzi..more emphasis on the former).. sounds like it was an ugly injury the way it was described in the article


glad it jogged a few good memories for you including noticing a regular in the picture ..think if I saw somebody that I didn't know personally who was a regular at otb a long while ago it'd probably come to me right away where I've seen his face ..the way the mind works lol




.

[str]

no problem str

you got the writer correct..has a nice style of doing it which I always admire as it's always been a weakness with me

you've talked about salzman a few times and I think once I asked you a question about him..said he liked to work with babies and develop good sprinters if I remember correctly..obviously this is the type of horse you never expect to get even if you shell out big bucks let alone $5k..my guess would be he had at least some of the say in making the purchase


I always remember from the early simulcast days that rick wilson was one of the long time, elite riders on the md circuit (along with prado and luzzi..more emphasis on the former).. sounds like it was an ugly injury the way it was described in the article


glad it jogged a few good memories for you including noticing a regular in the picture ..think if I saw somebody that I didn't know personally who was a regular at otb a long while ago it'd probably come to me right away where I've seen his face ..the way the mind works lol




.

Yep. You can bet he had a whole lot of say about buying her.

All John did was consistently get the job done.

He was way above average for quite a while IMO.