Federer at -318? Gettin' down before oddsmakers adjust for reality..

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  • SBR Lou
    BARRELED IN @ SBR!
    • 08-02-07
    • 37863

    #1
    Federer at -318? Gettin' down before oddsmakers adjust for reality..
    When handicapping majors, an important and useful way of analyzing matches is to look not for how a player has done that tournament, but instead look for how that players performances are perceived by the betting public and in turn, the oddsmakers.

    This sounds simple, but in tennis it is most effective because you are not betting on a team sport. There is no homecourt advantage less a player hails from the state that the major is being held at, and even in that specific scenario there is no HCA which is factored into the betting line.

    There are really not as many angles to evaluate in betting majors as people believe there are, recent performances really do not matter, it's the perception and how that perception influences and shape the line that is most valuable to determine.

    Case in point: #2 Roger Federer at -318 against #10 Gael Monfils. What do we know that has been already factored into the line? Could it be Federer's 13 Major Titles? Or Monfils big fat zero titles? Or could it be the fact that Federer was down two sets to love this morning, and came back miraculously?

    All of that and more. It's already in this line, but what's also factored into the line is the squares are afraid to lay the price on Federer, now more than ever. With Rafa Nadal losing as -5200 chalk just two days ago, and Federer coming out the very next day and being on the brink of elimination as a -1500 favorite, everyone from the $10 to the $10,000 bettor are going to think very carefully before making a wager on any price that is preceded by a "-".

    Now, none of the above is new information, it's not groundbreaking, but it's the simplicities behind majors (and sportsbetting in general) which are so incredibly hard for the unsophisticated bettor to compute. I'm not going to get into quantifying edges, or betting Kelly, or even spell out in-depth ways of analyzing data, because quite frankly I had to learn on my own too.

    All I can tell you is the question(s) you should ask, the answers are entirely up to you to discover. Only when you learn something yourself does it stick, I could give you the key to beating tennis and it would fall on deaf ears.

    Here's what you need to ask:
    Where will this line close?
    What's the fair value of this line?
    At what point would I consider this no play?

    Right now it's at -318- and that's at Pinnacle Sports. I can all but guarantee lesser rated and less tennis oriented sportsbooks are hanging a line that is slightly to majorly worse.

    Even at Pinnacle Sports this line will get worse, I will go ahead and say ~-344 closing as a conservative estimate, but I can easily see that being off by another .20 or so.

    Taking to win 1 unit..
  • xxdjstriderxx
    SBR MVP
    • 11-25-08
    • 4740

    #2
    Comment
    • tacomax
      SBR Hall of Famer
      • 08-10-05
      • 9619

      #3
      Originally posted by CrazyLou
      I'm not going to get into quantifying edges, or betting Kelly, or even spell out in-depth ways of analyzing data, because quite frankly I had to learn on my own too.
      Who taught you? Broke Landers?
      Originally posted by pags11
      SBR would never get rid of me...ever...
      Originally posted by BuddyBear
      I'd probably most likely chose Pags to jack off too.
      Originally posted by curious
      taco is not a troll, he is a bubonic plague bacteria.
      Comment
      • bettilimbroke999
        SBR Posting Legend
        • 02-04-08
        • 13254

        #4
        Did u see Monfils today? He almost made Roddick cry he beat him so badly, dude is a beast on clay
        Comment
        • j0hnnyv
          SBR MVP
          • 01-06-09
          • 3620

          #5
          monfils in straights.
          Comment
          • SexyMit
            SBR Hall of Famer
            • 10-12-06
            • 6139

            #6
            Monfils it is... Thanks Lou. Appreciate the fade material
            If it seems to good to be true it usually is!!

            I have a natural instinct to exploit market ineffieciencies!!
            Comment
            • daggerkobe
              SBR Posting Legend
              • 03-25-08
              • 10744

              #7
              Comment
              • SexyMit
                SBR Hall of Famer
                • 10-12-06
                • 6139

                #8
                Originally posted by bettilimbroke999
                Did u see Monfils today? He almost made Roddick cry he beat him so badly, dude is a beast on clay
                If it seems to good to be true it usually is!!

                I have a natural instinct to exploit market ineffieciencies!!
                Comment
                • Karayilan9
                  Restricted User
                  • 01-10-09
                  • 3742

                  #9
                  I'm so happy your on Federer and your reasons for picking him are just awful at least come up with something credible. You shouldn't underestimate Monfils so much, at least watch the guy first, you obviously haven't because you wouldn't have claimed that there's "no home court advantage".
                  Comment
                  • mathdotcom
                    SBR Posting Legend
                    • 03-24-08
                    • 11689

                    #10
                    Wow, the audacity of this guy to preach about how to cap tennis when he is getting fukkin demolished in this tournament.

                    Maybe you should be scared to lay chalk after getting fukked 2-3 times already laying worse than -500!

                    Sorry Crazy, but the squares are always on the big name players. Monfils is obviously the play here, but even moreso because you like Federer.
                    Comment
                    • mathdotcom
                      SBR Posting Legend
                      • 03-24-08
                      • 11689

                      #11
                      [Also, we appreciate you telling us how a $10,000 bettor thinks. I've always wondered. Thanks Lou]
                      Comment
                      • The General
                        SBR Posting Legend
                        • 08-10-05
                        • 13279

                        #12
                        Good luck, Lou. I am rooting for Federer as a bettor and tennis fan.
                        Comment
                        • raydog
                          SBR Hall of Famer
                          • 11-07-07
                          • 6984

                          #13
                          just play the game as you see it lou. lots of unforeseen upsets have proven why big chalk doesnt always pay off. it happens sometimes. you have been way off on some analysis, but so have others. thats the worst match ive seen out of roddick in a long long time and it had little to do with who he was playing. people that bet against federer have a nice comfy place in the street right next to the people who bet against tiger.
                          Comment
                          • j0hnnyv
                            SBR MVP
                            • 01-06-09
                            • 3620

                            #14
                            this makes my monfils play SO much stronger.
                            Comment
                            • Jerry Seinfeld
                              SBR Hustler
                              • 03-01-09
                              • 78

                              #15
                              If he has such good odds on Federer to win the whole thing shouldn't he be hedging his opponents as long as they are at least +200 against him? I am not a good tennis capper, but quite frankly with the way he French Open has gone I think I would take +300 against most any opponent (especially in the QF), if I had +1200 to win the entire tournament.
                              Comment
                              • SBR Lou
                                BARRELED IN @ SBR!
                                • 08-02-07
                                • 37863

                                #16
                                Originally posted by Jerry Seinfeld
                                If he has such good odds on Federer to win the whole thing shouldn't he be hedging his opponents as long as they are at least +200 against him?
                                NO.

                                If you recognize the equity of that +1150, or the basic concept of ''hedging'' you will find that in most every case it is significantly -EV and foolish.

                                This would be a monumental example of just that.
                                Comment
                                • bettilimbroke999
                                  SBR Posting Legend
                                  • 02-04-08
                                  • 13254

                                  #17
                                  .
                                  Attached Files
                                  Comment
                                  • The General
                                    SBR Posting Legend
                                    • 08-10-05
                                    • 13279

                                    #18
                                    Here I have to disagree, Lou. I've been with you throughout and I picked Federer at 13/1 when you posted the Great odds on approx May 7, but I am seriously thinking of a hedge because I am solely seeking One thing. Profit, even a small one. I'll take a small grinding profit over sweating out a bigger profit margin most any situation. Over the years I have argued the concept of hedging with many gamblers, but another gambler cannot win the argument if the bettor he is debating with is making the balance larger no matter the increments. I think I made a mistake not hedging at minus $1.35 heading into Monday morning on Federer Not winning the French Open.

                                    No -135
                                    Yes +1300
                                    Comment
                                    • Jerry Seinfeld
                                      SBR Hustler
                                      • 03-01-09
                                      • 78

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by CrazyLou
                                      NO.

                                      If you recognize the equity of that +1150, or the basic concept of ''hedging'' you will find that in most every case it is significantly -EV and foolish.

                                      This would be a monumental example of just that.
                                      I guess it depends on how much value you think your +1150 still has. Again I am a bit of a newb and tennis is not my game. Just seems like a lot of chalk to lay out for a QF tennis match after playing 5 sets. But again your level of information and knowledge I pray exceeds mine.

                                      GL the rest of the way!
                                      Comment
                                      • Justin7
                                        SBR Hall of Famer
                                        • 07-31-06
                                        • 8577

                                        #20
                                        Recent win/loss is mostly irrelevant. I've gone through 30-unit winning and losing streaks. What is more important is the analysis that goes into a match.

                                        Lou has some good ideas. He said "
                                        Where will this line close?
                                        What's the fair value of this line?
                                        At what point would I consider this no play?"

                                        This response is dead on. The $64k question he needs to explain is: "What is the fair value of this line"? Everything else is moot without a strong analysis of this.
                                        Comment
                                        • EaglesPhan36
                                          SBR Aristocracy
                                          • 12-06-06
                                          • 71662

                                          #21
                                          The only question is who wins and who loses.
                                          Comment
                                          • reno cool
                                            SBR MVP
                                            • 07-02-08
                                            • 3567

                                            #22
                                            "I'm not going to get into quantifying edges"
                                            got to love it.
                                            bird bird da bird's da word
                                            Comment
                                            • jjgold
                                              SBR Aristocracy
                                              • 07-20-05
                                              • 388179

                                              #23
                                              I do not know what skill their is in picking all these big favs

                                              Lou has to be joking with his tennis plays just for some good discussion and it has worked.

                                              Successful tennis cappers hit the dogs consistently

                                              Fed can easily lose
                                              Comment
                                              • Netprofit
                                                SBR MVP
                                                • 03-25-08
                                                • 3538

                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by jjgold
                                                Lou has to be joking with his tennis plays just for some good discussion and it has worked.
                                                I believe he is doing this - very very good marketing skills - that is why he is paid by SBR.
                                                Comment
                                                • single shaker
                                                  SBR Sharp
                                                  • 11-28-07
                                                  • 290

                                                  #25
                                                  for a change i agree with crazyl that federer is going to win, i dont like -420 line though, i think if sets betting around -3.5 or -4 games federer would worth a shot. i feel it will be an easy win for federer 6-4 6-3 6-2
                                                  Comment
                                                  • EaglesPhan36
                                                    SBR Aristocracy
                                                    • 12-06-06
                                                    • 71662

                                                    #26
                                                    Disagree with that shaker. If Federer wins and seeing as how Lou is the JINX of all jinxes right now, that is a big IF ... Monfils will win at least a set IMO. Won't be easy for Federer, not unless he pulls the best match of the tournament out of his ass.
                                                    Comment
                                                    • Irish Jet
                                                      SBR Sharp
                                                      • 12-02-08
                                                      • 320

                                                      #27
                                                      I was going to make this play.

                                                      Not anymore.
                                                      Comment
                                                      • mathdotcom
                                                        SBR Posting Legend
                                                        • 03-24-08
                                                        • 11689

                                                        #28
                                                        Seems they are adjusting for reality.

                                                        Federer now -307.
                                                        Comment
                                                        • sickler
                                                          SBR Posting Legend
                                                          • 06-05-08
                                                          • 15006

                                                          #29
                                                          I see -301 at Pinny.
                                                          Comment
                                                          • tacomax
                                                            SBR Hall of Famer
                                                            • 08-10-05
                                                            • 9619

                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by CrazyLou
                                                            Even at Pinnacle Sports this line will get worse, I will go ahead and say ~-344 closing as a conservative estimate, but I can easily see that being off by another .20 or so.
                                                            Off by over .40 at the moment.
                                                            Originally posted by pags11
                                                            SBR would never get rid of me...ever...
                                                            Originally posted by BuddyBear
                                                            I'd probably most likely chose Pags to jack off too.
                                                            Originally posted by curious
                                                            taco is not a troll, he is a bubonic plague bacteria.
                                                            Comment
                                                            • RogueJuror
                                                              SBR Posting Legend
                                                              • 07-08-08
                                                              • 10010

                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by reno cool
                                                              "I'm not going to get into quantifying edges"
                                                              got to love it.

                                                              Comment
                                                              • SBR Lou
                                                                BARRELED IN @ SBR!
                                                                • 08-02-07
                                                                • 37863

                                                                #32
                                                                Federer's serve looks pretty sharp, only a matter of time till he starts breaking.

                                                                The replies typically get quiet. Perhaps a blind fade was not +EV?
                                                                Comment
                                                                • SBR Lou
                                                                  BARRELED IN @ SBR!
                                                                  • 08-02-07
                                                                  • 37863

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by sickler
                                                                  I see -301 at Pinny.
                                                                  Closed at -320.
                                                                  Comment
                                                                  • yisman
                                                                    SBR Aristocracy
                                                                    • 09-01-08
                                                                    • 75682

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by Irish Jet
                                                                    I was going to make this play.

                                                                    Not anymore.
                                                                    I would've taken Monfils at a higher price, but it was way too low when I looked last night. Not interested at +300 or so.

                                                                    First set tiebreaker coming up.
                                                                    [quote=jjgold;5683305]I win again like usual
                                                                    [/quote]

                                                                    [quote=Whippit;7921056]miami won't lose a single eastern conference game through end of season[/quote]
                                                                    Comment
                                                                    • yisman
                                                                      SBR Aristocracy
                                                                      • 09-01-08
                                                                      • 75682

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by CrazyLou
                                                                      Federer's serve looks pretty sharp, only a matter of time till he starts breaking.
                                                                      You have got to be joking. This is your conclusion from the first set?
                                                                      [quote=jjgold;5683305]I win again like usual
                                                                      [/quote]

                                                                      [quote=Whippit;7921056]miami won't lose a single eastern conference game through end of season[/quote]
                                                                      Comment
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