profiling sharps?

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  • pedro803
    SBR Sharp
    • 01-02-10
    • 309

    #1
    profiling sharps?
    This question has been asked and answered well at least several times, but I want to add one more thought to the discussion and see what anybody thinks about this.

    This question often comes from newbies like me in some form or another: "If I work hard and develop a model (or system) that picks winners well enough to turn a profit, won't the online books just profile me, and realize I am costing them money and either ban me or limit me so heavily that it isn't worth my time?"

    And many posters have answered, saying for example -- that if you get the right book, one for pros not for recreational bettors, and don't try to scam bonuses or circumvent limits by using multiple accounts and so on, then this shouldn't be a problem.

    Another point often made is that the books at least to some degree balance the action so for them it is more about the vig than beating each individual bettor, so they still need the sharps to keep the volume up and they can still make money. And I am sure there have been other points made, but here is my thought.

    If you were really sharp enough to think that a good book might be wanting to check you in this way -- what if you just played early, and of course this means you would be sticking to the lower limits that go with playing early -- for some this would be a problem but for many of us $500 is a big bet.

    So if you did that and your method was straight forward i.e. you are picking the play that you are really going with, not something that you are going to hedge or fade later -- then if the book has you profiled as being that sharp, couldn't they also just use the information to shade their line or to allow a little exposure to your play?

    I'm not saying that they would tail you outright, but if they had a list of sharps who make their plays early, then at the very least the book can take this info cumulatively under advisement as they proceed gathering action on that game. So you could actually be of some use to them and they could actually make some money off of you if you were that kind of sharp.

    Thoughts?
  • Hareeba!
    BARRELED IN @ SBR!
    • 07-01-06
    • 37264

    #2
    I wouldn't be worrying about any of that until you get well past $500 bets.
    Comment
    • Legions36
      SBR MVP
      • 12-17-10
      • 3032

      #3
      I dont get why your worried about something that has never happened to u. I guess u really wanna be a sharp or feel like u are.
      Comment
      • Justin7
        SBR Hall of Famer
        • 07-31-06
        • 8577

        #4
        When books start taking nasty countermeasures against you, there is a whole new level of competition. There are legal ways to hide the source of a bet. The bigger syndicates are always changing things up... Even if a book knows who is placing a bet, they won't know if it is real, or a curve-ball until after the market moves.

        For now, just try to win. Once you can win, then worry about the market fighting back.
        Comment
        • alling
          SBR MVP
          • 05-13-10
          • 1405

          #5
          Does Vegas limit bettors? No. Just another example of the scumbags that run online books.
          Comment
          • Justin7
            SBR Hall of Famer
            • 07-31-06
            • 8577

            #6
            Originally posted by alling
            Does Vegas limit bettors? No. Just another example of the scumbags that run online books.
            Lol. Yes, Vegas books limit players. Caesar's Palace said they didn't want my action. And that was before my group put in a bunch of bets on an ncaab total off 10 points.
            Comment
            • Tackleberry
              SBR Sharp
              • 12-01-10
              • 441

              #7
              Originally posted by Justin7
              Lol. Yes, Vegas books limit players. Caesar's Palace said they didn't want my action. And that was before my group put in a bunch of bets on an ncaab total off 10 points.
              I would like to know why when someone does this at an online book many people on this forum like to label them as a "shot taker" and attack them for trying to make a bet where the linesman is obviously a sleep at the wheel like we are supposed to be friends with the book, but do it at a casino in Vegas and it's something that a sharp brags about in his book?
              Comment
              • Jontheman
                SBR High Roller
                • 09-09-08
                • 139

                #8
                Play within the rules that are on offer to you Tackleberry. In Vegas they have to pay you (so it's a good move to place the bet). Online the bet will be voided and you'll either get an Email from the book giving you a bollocking (especially if it was The Greek) or the book will void after the event to give itself a free shot at you (if it's a shady operation). That's the rules on offer and if you want to join the game you have to play by them and know when to use them to your advantage.
                Comment
                • MadTiger
                  SBR MVP
                  • 04-19-09
                  • 2724

                  #9
                  "It ain't easy bein' sharp."--Kermit
                  Comment
                  • pedro803
                    SBR Sharp
                    • 01-02-10
                    • 309

                    #10
                    Thanks everyone for your input and I do get what you are saying, and I guess if you think about it, it does go without saying that the books do watch the sharps and react accordingly with their lines and tolerance for exposure. And the reality is they don't have to watch the penny ante player even if he is sharp because they can just follow the bigger sharp money!

                    I see your point I should just go about learning to win and not worry about it.

                    Originally posted by Legions36
                    I dont get why your worried about something that has never happened to u. I guess u really wanna be a sharp or feel like u are.
                    Uh well....I thought it could go pretty much without saying that "yes, I would like to be sharp all else being equal." You got me. ...... I wouldn't think this is an uncommon sentiment here. I know for myself I wouldn't be spending so much time reading what others with a lot more experience than me have to say if it wasn't because I was trying to develop some skill.

                    And as for why I am worried about something that has never happened to me, I think it is not so different than any other venture someone might embark upon. You develop a business plan first -- before you put your money where your mouth is. And it may be hard for seasoned gamblers to understand that for people like me coming to this from the outside. (I have never been a sports bettor I just want to try my hand at building some models) Its a little bit foreign to us that this offshore industry is there and that at least a portion of it actually works as advertised.

                    So if I am going to put the work in to do this, and yes I believe I have a shot or else I wouldn't be putting the time in, then I have to have some confidence that I would be able to get my plays down with someone that would actually pay if I won. Without that, there is no business model, and all my hard work would be in vain at that point.

                    And in this case where I would be doing everything through an internet account its obvious they will be able to keep stats on me and if I win long term they will know -- so to the outsider its hard to accept that they will just continue letting me play and paying me on and on. But as I have said I have gathered that it is not that simple, i.e. its not really just their money that I would be taking.

                    As far as wanting to "feel sharp" -- I don't need to feel sharp at all as it relates to my interaction with you all on this forum. I have been posting here on and off for a couple of years and I have learned very very much and I am fine with the role of student, on the other hand when it comes to putting money down yes indeed I would need to feel sharp. In fact I would need to feel it with the kind of confidence that comes from seeing it with my own eyes.
                    Comment
                    • Tackleberry
                      SBR Sharp
                      • 12-01-10
                      • 441

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Jontheman
                      Play within the rules that are on offer to you Tackleberry. In Vegas they have to pay you (so it's a good move to place the bet). Online the bet will be voided and you'll either get an Email from the book giving you a bollocking (especially if it was The Greek) or the book will void after the event to give itself a free shot at you (if it's a shady operation). That's the rules on offer and if you want to join the game you have to play by them and know when to use them to your advantage.
                      I understand the nature of the beast of the offshore industry that makes placing a wager on an bad line counter productive, my issue is with the attitude of some players who seem to see such wagers as unethical in one context but not another. The books are not our friends but our adversaries, they will gladly bleed a degenerate gambler dry and take him/her for all he/she is worth. Why some people have the view that you should not attack them at every weak point (within the rules of course) is beyond me.
                      Comment
                      • MonkeyF0cker
                        SBR Posting Legend
                        • 06-12-07
                        • 12144

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Justin7
                        Lol. Yes, Vegas books limit players. Caesar's Palace said they didn't want my action. And that was before my group put in a bunch of bets on an ncaab total off 10 points.
                        What?

                        If they didn't want your action, that means you're 86'ed. Not limited.

                        And they didn't want your action, but you were able to get down a "bunch of bets" on an ncaab total???? Huh?

                        Let me guess. You used runners after they told you that they didn't want your action... And those runners bet a game multiple times because it was OFF MARKET by 10 points. I mean, it had to be OFF MARKET by 10 points or you could have just walked 2 minutes over to the Mirage or Bellagio and bet the same fukking number.

                        Jesus Christ, guy. Does it ever stop?
                        Comment
                        • evo34
                          SBR MVP
                          • 11-09-08
                          • 1032

                          #13
                          Originally posted by MonkeyF0cker
                          What? If they didn't want your action, that means you're 86'ed. Not limited. And they didn't want your action, but you were able to get down a "bunch of bets" on an ncaab total???? Huh? Let me guess. You used runners after they told you that they didn't want your action... And those runners bet a game multiple times because it was OFF MARKET by 10 points. I mean, it had to be OFF MARKET by 10 points or you could have just walked 2 minutes over to the Mirage or Bellagio and bet the same fukking number. Jesus Christ, guy. Does it ever stop?
                          Pretty sure he already said it was off-market: "my group put in a bunch of bets on an ncaab total off 10 points."
                          Comment
                          • AimingHigh
                            SBR Wise Guy
                            • 06-12-09
                            • 670

                            #14
                            Originally posted by MonkeyF0cker
                            What?

                            If they didn't want your action, that means you're 86'ed. Not limited.

                            And they didn't want your action, but you were able to get down a "bunch of bets" on an ncaab total???? Huh?

                            Let me guess. You used runners after they told you that they didn't want your action... And those runners bet a game multiple times because it was OFF MARKET by 10 points. I mean, it had to be OFF MARKET by 10 points or you could have just walked 2 minutes over to the Mirage or Bellagio and bet the same fukking number.

                            Jesus Christ, guy. Does it ever stop?
                            I don't really see the problem you have with this. It's perfectly legal by Vegas rules, so why not? And if you wouldn't bet it yourself, why not? If I had that kind of knowledge to know a line was that far off, you can be sure I'd bet it if I could.
                            Comment
                            • Justin7
                              SBR Hall of Famer
                              • 07-31-06
                              • 8577

                              #15
                              Originally posted by MonkeyF0cker
                              What?

                              If they didn't want your action, that means you're 86'ed. Not limited.
                              Do you even know what being 86'ed means?
                              Comment
                              • Ruifgalmeida
                                SBR MVP
                                • 04-23-08
                                • 2024

                                #16
                                Justin7- do you get a runner to place your bets? or legally they have to take your bets?
                                Comment
                                • MonkeyF0cker
                                  SBR Posting Legend
                                  • 06-12-07
                                  • 12144

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Justin7
                                  Do you even know what being 86'ed means?
                                  It means they no longer take your action, genius.

                                  You do realize that being 86'ed from a book and 86'ed from a casino property are two seperate things, right?
                                  Comment
                                  • MonkeyF0cker
                                    SBR Posting Legend
                                    • 06-12-07
                                    • 12144

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by evo34
                                    Pretty sure he already said it was off-market: "my group put in a bunch of bets on an ncaab total off 10 points."
                                    Right. And Caesars didn't even look at the DB screen when his "group" hammered the line that was 10 points off market. Nor did they require a player's card which every Harrah's property does for max bets. So, his "group" took a shot and got away with it scott-free.

                                    LMAO.

                                    Whatever. You people will believe anything this clown tells you.
                                    Comment
                                    • Justin7
                                      SBR Hall of Famer
                                      • 07-31-06
                                      • 8577

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by MonkeyF0cker
                                      It means they no longer take your action, genius.

                                      You do realize that being 86'ed from a book and 86'ed from a casino property are two seperate things, right?
                                      Monkey,

                                      You're incorrect.

                                      86'ed means you are trespassed, and not allowed on the premises. If you are 86'ed, it is generally from the entire property. There is no difference between the casino and sportsbook at that point. This is a more severe penalty than being refused action in either or both of the casino and sportsbook.

                                      Have you ever been 86'ed? I assume not, given your response.
                                      Comment
                                      • MonkeyF0cker
                                        SBR Posting Legend
                                        • 06-12-07
                                        • 12144

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Justin7
                                        Monkey,

                                        You're incorrect.

                                        86'ed means you are trespassed, and not allowed on the premises. If you are 86'ed, it is generally from the entire property. There is no difference between the casino and sportsbook at that point. This is a more severe penalty than being refused action in either or both of the casino and sportsbook.

                                        Have you ever been 86'ed? I assume not, given your response.
                                        Bullshit. People get 86'ed from the book and pit. It doesn't mean they are trespassed.

                                        Being 86'ed from certain gaming areas does not equate to being trespassed.

                                        Just as being limited to zero is not being limited. It's being 86'ed.

                                        Please tell me how Vegas works, Justin. I only live here.
                                        Comment
                                        • pedro803
                                          SBR Sharp
                                          • 01-02-10
                                          • 309

                                          #21
                                          I realize this discussion has drifted far from my original question -- but if I would like to repose a slightly different question that kind of gets at the info that I am looking for.

                                          In what ways are sharp bettors usefull to books? Both big $$$ sharps and guys that just tend to be up all-time against books -- is this strictly an adversarial arrangement or are those players somehow valued "customers?" or at least a valued part of the industry? or perhaps it is just the case that they have to honor sharp action b/c to do otherwise would tarnish their reputation.

                                          So do they wish the sharps weren't around, or are the sharps just a part of the bigger picture that helps books separate the public from their money? And if the books do have some use for sharps, is it just the big money or are small time sharps somehow useful too?

                                          Thanks
                                          Comment
                                          • BigDaddy
                                            SBR Hall of Famer
                                            • 02-01-06
                                            • 8378

                                            #22
                                            haha

                                            focker doesn't even know what 86'ed means

                                            lol
                                            Comment
                                            • MonkeyF0cker
                                              SBR Posting Legend
                                              • 06-12-07
                                              • 12144

                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by BigDaddy
                                              haha

                                              focker doesn't even know what 86'ed means

                                              lol
                                              What would happen if Andy Bloch went and tried to play blackjack in a pit rather than going straight to the poker room?

                                              He gets trespassed.

                                              He is 86'ed from the pits. It's pretty fukkin simple.
                                              Comment
                                              • BigDaddy
                                                SBR Hall of Famer
                                                • 02-01-06
                                                • 8378

                                                #24
                                                who?
                                                Comment
                                                • durito
                                                  SBR Posting Legend
                                                  • 07-03-06
                                                  • 13173

                                                  #25
                                                  J7 once had a super bowl bet rejected in vegas. Hes is big time.
                                                  Comment
                                                  • King_Suckerman
                                                    SBR Wise Guy
                                                    • 04-12-09
                                                    • 945

                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by pedro803
                                                    I realize this discussion has drifted far from my original question -- but if I would like to repose a slightly different question that kind of gets at the info that I am looking for. In what ways are sharp bettors usefull to books? Both big $$$ sharps and guys that just tend to be up all-time against books -- is this strictly an adversarial arrangement or are those players somehow valued "customers?" or at least a valued part of the industry? or perhaps it is just the case that they have to honor sharp action b/c to do otherwise would tarnish their reputation. So do they wish the sharps weren't around, or are the sharps just a part of the bigger picture that helps books separate the public from their money? And if the books do have some use for sharps, is it just the big money or are small time sharps somehow useful too? Thanks
                                                    According to one of the pinnacle videos posted on this forum, sharps are useful as pointers to where the line should be.
                                                    Comment
                                                    • wrongturn
                                                      SBR MVP
                                                      • 06-06-06
                                                      • 2228

                                                      #27
                                                      sharps are only useful to very few books, perhaps pinny only. other books are better off with booting them.
                                                      Comment
                                                      • Justin7
                                                        SBR Hall of Famer
                                                        • 07-31-06
                                                        • 8577

                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by durito
                                                        J7 once had a super bowl bet rejected in vegas. Hes is big time.
                                                        Caesars rejecting a spread bet on the Super Bowl is more a testament of how crooked they are than anything about me. At the time they were dealing Bears +7 Colts -7, when the rest of the market was 6.5. They were rejecting bets on the Bears, however.
                                                        Comment
                                                        • MonkeyF0cker
                                                          SBR Posting Legend
                                                          • 06-12-07
                                                          • 12144

                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by Justin7
                                                          Caesars rejecting a spread bet on the Super Bowl is more a testament of how crooked they are than anything about me. At the time they were dealing Bears +7 Colts -7, when the rest of the market was 6.5. They were rejecting bets on the Bears, however.
                                                          And I'm assuming that you reported this to the Gaming Control Board, right?
                                                          Comment
                                                          • OSUCOWBOYS
                                                            SBR High Roller
                                                            • 10-26-07
                                                            • 241

                                                            #30
                                                            Why all the hate for J7? He seems like a guy on our side of the counter that has a shit ton to share with this community. Why the ball busting?
                                                            Comment
                                                            • MonkeyF0cker
                                                              SBR Posting Legend
                                                              • 06-12-07
                                                              • 12144

                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by OSUCOWBOYS
                                                              Why all the hate for J7? He seems like a guy on our side of the counter that has a shit ton to share with this community. Why the ball busting?
                                                              You want the long list or the short one?
                                                              Comment
                                                              • BigDaddy
                                                                SBR Hall of Famer
                                                                • 02-01-06
                                                                • 8378

                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by MonkeyF0cker
                                                                You want the long list or the short one?

                                                                long oneplease

                                                                as i don't understand it either

                                                                Justin writes books that helps us out and he posts some damn good info at times
                                                                Comment
                                                                • ForgetWallStreet
                                                                  SBR Sharp
                                                                  • 04-27-07
                                                                  • 342

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by BigDaddy

                                                                  Justin writes books that helps us out and he posts some damn good info at times
                                                                  His book probably hurt as many people as it helped.
                                                                  Comment
                                                                  • OSUCOWBOYS
                                                                    SBR High Roller
                                                                    • 10-26-07
                                                                    • 241

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by ForgetWallStreet
                                                                    His book probably hurt as many people as it helped.
                                                                    Why? Link to your reasoning for that statement?

                                                                    I'm not saying he isn't a piece of shit. I just want to see it with my own eyes.
                                                                    Comment
                                                                    • ForgetWallStreet
                                                                      SBR Sharp
                                                                      • 04-27-07
                                                                      • 342

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by OSUCOWBOYS
                                                                      Why? Link to your reasoning for that statement?

                                                                      I'm not saying he isn't a piece of shit. I just want to see it with my own eyes.
                                                                      Some bookmakers can read too. Pointing out their errors in an extremely public medium can be -EV for everyone even if it does help a bunch of NOOBS improve their game.

                                                                      There's also some straight up bad advice in there, but I'm not getting into that here.
                                                                      Comment
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