Anyone Ever Filed a Complaint with an AUS Licensing Body?

[AimingHigh]

I may need to file a complaint with one of the Australian licensing bodies, depending on how the book responds to my reply to them. I just wondered if anyone had any past experience with this, and how it went.

I'm hoping the book responds favourably, but want to be prepared just in case. I figured I'd try the local licensing body before SBR, or do people think I should try SBR first?

[Dunder]

No experience with the Aussie authorities, sorry.

It seems that SBR are getting nowhere with CanBet/IASBet, so complaining to the regulator looks like the way to go.

[AimingHigh]

Thanks, Dunder.

I received a very negative reply from the book, so I will file locally first, I think. I don't want to name and shame until they really deserve shaming.

I decided to look at Aus books more recently because of the apparently tighter regulation, so I hope that doesn't let me down too.

[Skalatharx]

Thanks, Dunder.

I received a very negative reply from the book, so I will file locally first, I think. I don't want to name and shame until they really deserve shaming.

I decided to look at Aus books more recently because of the apparently tighter regulation, so I hope that doesn't let me down too.

If they are stuffing you about than they deserve to be named on here, that way other members are aware

[chance]

Just tell us the story and you will get better help.

If the book in question is located in the Northern Territory your chances of a successfull complaint are a lot less than if they are in ACT, Victoria, or NSW.

[AimingHigh]

Chance, it's with the Northern Territory. I e-mailed them asking how to submit a complaint, but have received no reply (though it's been just over 24 hours).

The complaint is about BetChoice.

I've submitted the complaint to SBR, and hope that they can work with BetChoice. I'll post a very brief version of the complaint in this post, and the detailed version in the next post. [Names XXXXX for privacy]

The short version: BetChoice are denying me their post-wager sign up bonus, saying that I am a professional gambler arbitraging their odds against Betfair. I have denied this. I genuinely am not a professional gambler, and don't appreciate the 'compliment' if it's used as excuse to freeroll me. All of their bets are accepted after manual approval so there's no way to ever place a bet on a line if they don't want to accept that bet. I've wagered over $10,000 to meet the requirements for the $1,000 bonus. I have offered to show them my Betfair betting history, which I mainly use for horse racing and correct score betting in football (soccer). They are not interested in seeing this, despite their crazy accusation based on their assumptions about what I do / don't bet on on Betfair.

[AimingHigh]

The long version:

I opened an account on 12 November. There was an advertised sign up bonus of $1,000 for initial credit card deposits, the bonus to be paid once the customer had rolled over the deposit 2x at odds of 1.5 or higher.

Several credit card deposit attempts were unsuccessful. After speaking with the fraud dept. of my bank I deposited $5,000 AUS via credit card. Whilst this was my first deposit, it did not show as such online because the system recognised my earlier unsuccessful ones. I confirmed via e-mail with XXXXX that I would be eligible for the new account bonus. XXXXX said "You're right about the software, it will find the failed efforts and classify you as not eligible. However, if you meet the other criteria we can manage the Bonus manually. Contact us when you believe you've met the T & C."

On 28 November I had, according to my records, bet $10,000+ at the requested odds so I e-mailed to request the sign up bonus to be added to my account balance.

I received the following reply from XXXXX on 29 November: "The Terms & Conditions of the Betchoice offer contains the following...
Betchoice also reserves the right to retract this bonus offer if
(i) The client is a licenced bookmaker or considered by Betchoice to be a professional gambler
(ii) The client is determined by Betchoice to be acting on behalf of a licenced bookmaker or professional gambler
The nature of your betting activity shows that your main objective is arbitrage betting against Betfair and as such you are considered a professional gambler and not entitled to the Deposit Bonus."

I sent the following reply: "I am very surprised and disappointed by this response. I wanted to open an account with an Australian bookmaker as I understood them to be better regulated than in other jurisdictions, and more professional. Your reply seems to suggest otherwise.
I am certainly not a professional gambler. I would hope that a professional gambler would me much more successful than I have been, as I have not even managed to keep my initial deposit balance.
I do have an account at Betfair, and I place bets there. My bets with you are in no way related to my bets on Betfair. In fact, I would be more than happy to provide you with my Betfair account history for the period for which I have had an account with you, and have Betfair confirm that that is my only account (I'm not sure one is allowed more than one account?) to show that there is no connection between my activity with you and my activity on Betfair, which is mainly confined to horse racing and correct score bets in football (soccer).
Every bet I placed with you was considered by your team and approved after a delay, sometimes several minutes long. I assume such approval was manual so there can be no sense in which I have taken advantage of any odds offered by you.
If you were planning on denying me the sign up bonus, you have had since 12 November to notify me of this. It is unfair to make this decision, based on erroneous reasoning (see above), only after I have continued to place bets with you on the basis that the bonus would be awarded. Had you told me at any stage that the bonus would not be awarded, I may not have continued to place bets with you, knowing that I risked losing my money with no chance of a bonus to "compensate" for those losses.
I would ask you to reconsider your decision, and to award the advertised sign up bonus to my account. If this turns on seeing my Betfair account activity, do let me know and I will provide it to you."

XXXXX then sent the following reply, also on 29 November: "The manner in which your account has been opened and operated is a common one, especially for UK based punters. Betchoice is well aware of the stategy of 'back the firmers at Betfair, lose as slow as you can, take the Bonus and move along'. As we mention in our T&C, we are seeking genuine punters; arbitrage punters are tolerated, not rewarded. Your activity at Betfair is none of our business nor our concern. Our decision stands."

I sent the following reply, which has been ignored: "I am equally surprised by your second response.
Surely if you are accusing me of somehow correlating my bets with you with my bets on Betfair, my Betfair activity is critical to that accusation? I actually don't understand what you mean by "back the 'firmers" and assume that is an Australian turn of phrase. You denied the $1000 bonus based on an accusation that my bets with you are correlated with my activity on Betfair. I am in the amazingly rare position of being able to prove a negative, namely that I was not correlating my bets across the two websites. Why do you not want this proof? Your earlier e-mail suggested that, but for this accusation, I would have received the bonus. Would you not like to see the proof and award the bonus?
I am also confused by your additional comments. Of course I tried to lose as little as possible. In fact, I was trying to win money, though obviously not particularly successfully. Surely everyone who bets hopes to win! How can betting with the hope of winning be a strategy that marks me out for your unfair treatment?
I really am very, very disappointed. I have acted in good faith, and would like you to do likewise.
For a second time, I would request that you reconsider your position and award the advertised bonus."

BetChoice took a freeroll against me for the entire time I had my account open and was betting with them. I deposited $5,000 and my current balance is $4XXX. BetChoice manually approve all of their bets, so there is no way for anyone to take 'advantage' of any odds they do not want customers to bet. In that way they were happy for me to place over $10,000 of bets with them, and only when asked to pay the post-wagering new account bonus do they claim they don't like my bets. They refuse to consider evidence (namely, my Betfair account history) that directly refutes their accusation about my bets.

BetChoice is now ignoring my e-mails. I hope that SBR can work on my behalf to resolve this.

[Dunder]

Given that they specifically mention arbitrage against Betfair in their rules and in their reply, and that you can demonstrate that you have not been doing this, it looks like you have a solid case.

I assume though that there is a vague catch all in their rules "Management may cancel promotion at any time blah blah". Some authorities (Malta for example) consider this clause as sufficient in itself to screw players over bonuses. I hope that is not the case here.

As far as I can see BetChoice is not even rated by SBR, which doesn´t help.

[AimingHigh]

Yeah, it felt a bit weird to offer them my Betfair account history... but if they want to make crazy accusations, which I can refute, why not?

Well, they didn't refer to any other term, so it wouldn't seem fair to try and argue that now, but who knows? It ought to be enough to show that their sole reason for denying the bonus is ill-founded.

BetChoice have a reasonable rating on BMR, and seemed well-regarded on Aus tipster forums. I was really just looking to get a few of my eggs out of the offshore basket, and into a well-regulated one. I wouldn't have expected this from an Aus book.

[noyb]

To be honest, I don't think your complaint has any chance of getting anywhere. The bonus T&C mentions: you do not qualify when you are "considered by Betchoice to be a professional gambler". Whether you think you are a professional gambler (whatever that may be, I agree the term is vague which doesn't help either) isn't really relevant, they apparently think you are and that's enough.
If they would have voided winnings bets because they don't like your style of play, that's obviously a big offence. But to award or not award a bonus is pretty much a discretionary thing, you're not entitled to a bonus by principle and the possibility you're not entitled is mentioned in the T&C with such wording you could have known you couldn't be 100% sure if you would get it. From your posts, you seem to be an educated bettor, you must have experienced before books in general are extremely quick to call someone a professional gambler just because he/she knows how to use an odds comparison website to their advantage, in other words: isn't a complete retard that will bet -130 when -110 is available elsewhere.

They accuse you of using Betfair for hedging, you deny this, but again I don't think this is relevant even if you show them the statement. It's not very professional of them mentioning Betfair at all, but in a complaint procedure I'm sure they'll claim Betfair was just an example (might as well have been Betdaq or Pinny or whatever) and not material to the case.

[AimingHigh]

Thanks for the reply, noyb. Actually, I've never run into this before, and am amazed that such a vague "professional player" term isn't an "unfair" contract term in the consumer contract context. I guess I sound educated because I know to avoid Maltese bookies, and have learnt from been very nearly burned by an offshore bookie that looked like it was going down with most of my gambling funds.

I agree that if they said "you're a professional player so you don't get the bonus" that, whilst they'd be wrong, and the reason given is too vague, etc., my only argument might be a legal one - and that's if gambling contracts are enforceable in Aus law and if Aus consumer protection legislation applies to gambling contracts (which I haven't properly checked) - that the term itself was "unfair", hence void and unenforceable.

But they actually say "you're a professional player BECAUSE you hedge your bets with us against bets on Betfair." This I can prove is wrong. Obviously, proving I'm not a "professional player" would be ridiculous and, I'd guess, impossible. But the way that they phrased the issue seems to give me an easier argument. They didn't claim Betfair was just an example, but instead said I actually did something I didn't do. Perhaps my approach is too legalistic, but it looks like they actually gave me an easier case against them in the reason they gave for denying the bonus.

[My legalistic approach actually tells you what field I work in "professionally" and it's not sportsbetting ]

[noyb]

yeah that's pretty clear now anyway, good luck. keep us updated how you're getting on,

with regards to your original question about australian regulators. in my experience they respond slowly but when they do, they're fair and definitely have leverage over a book. never dealt with the NT regulators, and apparently (from what i've heard myself and also read in this thread) the state the book is in makes quite the difference, so not sure how relevant my previous experience really is.

[Hareeba!]

Betchoice is one of the best regarded Oz books. I've not had any problems with them and I'm rather surprised at what they've done to you, Aiming High. They are regulated by the Department of Justice in the NT. I've never had cause to refer a complaint to them but I wouldn't expect them to lean too heavily on a punter's side. I think the bookies wrote all the rules by which their industry is regulated because no one in government has a clue about gambling.
My only experience of taking a complaint to an Australian authority was in Victoria and I got no satisfaction from that despite it appearing an obviously straightforward issue against an unprincipled bookie.
Regulators all over the world appear to be aware who butters their bread.

[chance]

Take my advise and do not bother filing a complaint. It is a bonus issue which means the regulator will not get involved.

Betchoice pays taxes to the Northern Territory. The Northern territory needs that income they will not piss off Betchoice. Northern Territory is the wild west of OZ.

This site through people like Justin and The General may be able to talk to Betchoice on your behalf and get them to reconsider.

Betchoice can be very stubborn people so do not get your hopes up.

[AimingHigh]

Just to update this. I've today filed a dispute with the NT regulator, after my attempt to resolve matters with Betchoice fell on deaf ears. Betchoice have 7 days to respond to that complaint, so we'll see what happens. I'm trying to be hopeful, as it is an independent statutory regulator after all.

Aside from an initial acknowledgment of receipt of my dispute by the General on 30 November, I've had no update from SBR.

[AimingHigh]

Just wanted to add a further update: BetChoice paid out the new account bonus. I'm not sure if it was based on my complaint to the NT regulator or not; all I know is they paid after that was submitted, and all I had had from various parties within BetChoice had been "no".

So all is well that ends well, even if it took a lot of work. I'd like to keep wagering with them, though I'm not sure how wise that is. I'll at least give them the chance to get the bonus back from me

Re. SBR: I never received any further update after the initial acknowledgment of my complaint, which is a bit disappointing to be honest, as they had almost a month to do something.

[Dunder]

Just wanted to add a further update: BetChoice paid out the new account bonus. I'm not sure if it was based on my complaint to the NT regulator or not; all I know is they paid after that was submitted, and all I had had from various parties within BetChoice had been "no".

So all is well that ends well, even if it took a lot of work. I'd like to keep wagering with them, though I'm not sure how wise that is. I'll at least give them the chance to get the bonus back from me

Re. SBR: I never received any further update after the initial acknowledgment of my complaint, which is a bit disappointing to be honest, as they had almost a month to do something.

Chalk up one for the good guys!

[Hareeba!]

Just wanted to add a further update: BetChoice paid out the new account bonus. I'm not sure if it was based on my complaint to the NT regulator or not; all I know is they paid after that was submitted, and all I had had from various parties within BetChoice had been "no".

So all is well that ends well, even if it took a lot of work. I'd like to keep wagering with them, though I'm not sure how wise that is. I'll at least give them the chance to get the bonus back from me

Re. SBR: I never received any further update after the initial acknowledgment of my complaint, which is a bit disappointing to be honest, as they had almost a month to do something.

congratulations on your persistence AH
I guess BC simply thought it was easier and probably cheaper to pay up than bother with having to respond in detail to the authority

[sportscash]

Im glad it worked out for you.Betchoice is my favourite australian book ive never had any problems with them but i will add that i did not accept the $1000 bonus.Ive been with them for 4 years and always got payed the next day which is important to me.

[Alastair Jervis]

It is good to see that gamblers do have some chance against bad decisions by bookmakers.