Are bitcoin books going to hurt traditional books?

**Art Vandeleigh** · 10-03-14, 07:13 AM

Can someone explain to me why all U.S. facing books aren't working as fast as they can to make bitcoin a deposit/withdrawal option?

Except for Bookmaker, which must make a lot by gouging its customers for withdrawal fees. I asked their chat if they were planning on adding bitcoin, but the rep had never heard of bitcoin.

But other than that reason (losing out on high W/D fees) - why would a U.S. facing book not want to add it?

**elgreco** · 10-03-14, 07:15 AM

Your avatars hurt my eyes. What happened to "straight as an arrow"?.

**elgreco** · 10-03-14, 07:24 AM

Originally posted by Art Vandeleigh

Can someone explain to me why all U.S. facing books aren't working as fast as they can to make bitcoin a deposit/withdrawal option?

Except for Bookmaker, which must make a lot by gouging its customers for withdrawal fees. I asked their chat if they were planning on adding bitcoin, but the rep had never heard of bitcoin.

But other than that reason (losing out on high W/D fees) - why would a U.S. facing book not want to add it?

Just to give you a little background, I've been pushing BTC here since 2011. I made educational threads that had hundreds of posts and thousands of views. My threads would get deleted without explanation, I would paste screenshots of all my threads, and those would get deleted. I was even threatened with being banned if I tried reposting them.

Back in that that time period, I had a good PM exchange with a poster who is no longer active. This is the explanation he offered, hope he won't mind:

Originally posted by Deleted

I know some of the people involved in big books, and frankly they are dinosaurs. They are old guys who have roots in local betting and have always done the phone thing. They were reluctant to get on the web at all. They have been through the processor wars but are deeply skeptical of bitcoin because they are, in general, technologically inept. And they don't have any trusted partners who understand the technology.

But eventually it will happen, I have no doubt. Either the frontrunners in the btc world btcsportsbet/sportsmatch will get aggressive and expand their offering bigtime and market it appropriately, or one of the existing majors will see the light and start using them. It is just a matter of time.

Until then, I will support the trusted existing bitcoin players and encourage the neanderthals on here to try bitcoin out. The more successful the bitcoin sportsbook are, the more competition will come and it will help the overall btc economy too.

**raiders72001** · 10-03-14, 11:29 AM

The more successful the bitcoin sportsbook are, the more competition will come and it will help the overall btc economy too.

Many of the bitcoinbooks have gone to reduced juice.

**minet123** · 10-03-14, 11:56 AM

NO
because eventually all books including the ones in the 4th world rat hole will go to the Asian agent model

**bookie** · 10-03-14, 12:19 PM

Originally posted by minet123

NO
because eventually all books including the ones in the 4th world rat hole will go to the Asian agent model

What's that?

**thespeculator** · 10-03-14, 12:30 PM

Originally posted by minet123

NO
because eventually all books including the ones in the 4th world rat hole will go to the Asian agent model

Same question? How does that work

**scottgodson1985** · 10-03-14, 01:03 PM

bookmaker hasn't heard of bitcoin lol, It looks like im down & out with w union so i gotta do a little research and make the plunge to bitcoin.

**Optional** · 10-03-14, 01:57 PM

The more mainstream books take on bitcoin the more players will use it and the more business bitcoin only books will get.

Although it kind of seems like people who use them now don't care as much about winning as they think their Bitcoin will grow in value anyway, so an influx of serious punters might not really be that great for them.

**Art Vandeleigh** · 10-03-14, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by Optional

The more mainstream books take on bitcoin the more players will use it and the more business bitcoin only books will get.

I would think the main attraction for mainstream books is all the money sitting on the sidelines in the U.S. since UIGEA passed that can now make it offshore easily. The whole offshore pie should get bigger, don't you think?

**Optional** · 10-03-14, 02:53 PM

Possibly to some extent. It should bring back some bettors who have given up on offshore over money transfer hassles.

**raiders72001** · 10-03-14, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by thespeculator

Same question? How does that work

You send bitcoins to an agent. The agent converts the bitcoins into Asian dollars, Hong Kong or Singapore. The agent then sets up an account for you with a sportsbook and deposits the money in Asian dollars.

You will then be making bets with Asian dollars. When you want a withdrawal, you go through the agent again. The agent converts back to bitcoins and sends the bitcoins back to you. When dealing with agents, if there is a problem, you deal with the agent. The book will not help you out.

There are agents that work in different ways. With the books in CR, they are converting to US dollars and sending that to the book. Be very careful with the agents since some have stiffed players. It's much safer to just use the established bitcoin books.

There are different reasons to use each individual book as there are with fiat books. Some have bonuses, reduced juice, live betting and different offerings. Some target American markets and other European markets. Here are some of the strong bitcoin books: Anonibet, Nitrogen, Betcoinsports, Jetwin and BetVIP.

**thespeculator** · 10-03-14, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by raiders72001

You send bitcoins to an agent. The agent converts the bitcoins into Asian dollars, Hong Kong or Singapore. The agent then sets up an account for you with a sportsbook and deposits the money in Asian dollars.

You will then be making bets with Asian dollars. When you want a withdrawal, you go through the agent again. The agent converts back to bitcoins and sends the bitcoins back to you. When dealing with agents, if there is a problem, you deal with the agent. The book will not help you out.

There are agents that work in different ways. With the books in CR, they are converting to US dollars and sending that to the book. Be very careful with the agents since some have stiffed players. It's much safer to just use the established bitcoin books.

There are different reasons to use each individual book as there are with fiat books. Some have bonuses, reduced juice, live betting and different offerings. Some target American markets and other European markets. Here are some of the strong bitcoin books: Anonibet, Nitrogen, Betcoinsports, Jetwin and BetVIP.

Interesting

**jjgold** · 10-04-14, 06:21 AM

Stay away from agents many frauds and thieves

Its not for most people

**PharaohUB** · 10-04-14, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by elgreco

Just to give you a little background, I've been pushing BTC here since 2011. I made educational threads that had hundreds of posts and thousands of views. My threads would get deleted without explanation, I would paste screenshots of all my threads, and those would get deleted. I was even threatened with being banned if I tried reposting them.

Back in that that time period, I had a good PM exchange with a poster who is no longer active. This is the explanation he offered, hope he won't mind:

I remember. I've been on Bitcoin just as long if not longer. I just stood back and watched the Dinosaur/Conservatives on here shoot you down. Didn't want to get involved. TBH I was happy using it for myself and was afraid spreading it to masses might ruin it anyway.

To answer JJ, yes. Any person who actually tries a REAL Bitcoin book and learns the process will NEVER go back. Yes it can be a little bit extra work, but if you get the hang of the process why would you do anything else? If you are an IPhone user - stick to the Heritage/5Dimes. If you are a Droid User - bitcoin might be for you.

Get ready for live betting on everything you want, and feeling like you don't live in America. And NEVER having to sweat the payout. Also bet on any BitCoin book you want any time you want regardless of where your funds are held.

**PharaohUB** · 10-04-14, 10:15 AM

The more I think about it, it may help the traditional books. All the Sharps will move to bitcoin, and the tards will stay with traditional books.

**raiders72001** · 10-04-14, 10:27 AM

Originally posted by PharaohUB

I remember. I've been on Bitcoin just as long if not longer. I just stood back and watched the Dinosaur/Conservatives on here shoot you down. Didn't want to get involved. TBH I was happy using it for myself and was afraid spreading it to masses might ruin it anyway.

To answer JJ, yes. Any person who actually tries a REAL Bitcoin book and learns the process will NEVER go back. Yes it can be a little bit extra work, but if you get the hang of the process why would you do anything else? If you are an IPhone user - stick to the Heritage/5Dimes. If you are a Droid User - bitcoin might be for you.

Get ready for live betting on everything you want, and feeling like you don't live in America. And NEVER having to sweat the payout. Also bet on any BitCoin book you want any time you want regardless of where your funds are held.

I agree 100%.

**HuskerExpat** · 10-04-14, 01:16 PM

Originally posted by PharaohUB

I remember. I've been on Bitcoin just as long if not longer. I just stood back and watched the Dinosaur/Conservatives on here shoot you down. Didn't want to get involved. TBH I was happy using it for myself and was afraid spreading it to masses might ruin it anyway.

To answer JJ, yes. Any person who actually tries a REAL Bitcoin book and learns the process will NEVER go back. Yes it can be a little bit extra work, but if you get the hang of the process why would you do anything else? If you are an IPhone user - stick to the Heritage/5Dimes. If you are a Droid User - bitcoin might be for you.

Get ready for live betting on everything you want, and feeling like you don't live in America. And NEVER having to sweat the payout. Also bet on any BitCoin book you want any time you want regardless of where your funds are held.

Agreed, but most people won't try until the price/value of BTCs stabilizes.

**Optional** · 10-04-14, 02:04 PM

Originally posted by HuskerExpat

Agreed, but most people won't try until the price/value of BTCs stabilizes.

or they are convinced it will keep rising

**HuskerExpat** · 10-04-14, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by Optional

or they are convinced it will keep rising

yup

**Hareeba!** · 10-04-14, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by raiders72001

I agree 100%.

Presumably you are talking of people who are attracted to using bitcoin because moving traditional currency to and from bookmakers is hindered by regulation?

Most of the world doesn't have that problem. The bitcoin books would seem to be mostly targeting US players?

I have yet to be attracted to using bitcoin as I have yet to see any benefit at all over traditional currency. And I'm not aware that any of the books I play at have yet introduced bitcoin.

**raiders72001** · 10-04-14, 07:50 PM

Originally posted by Hareeba!

Presumably you are talking of people who are attracted to using bitcoin because moving traditional currency to and from bookmakers is hindered by regulation?

Most of the world doesn't have that problem. The bitcoin books would seem to be mostly targeting US players?

I have yet to be attracted to using bitcoin as I have yet to see any benefit at all over traditional currency. And I'm not aware that any of the books I play at have yet introduced bitcoin.

I can only speak about an American point of view. With the bitcoin books, I don't have to keep a large balance. Deposits are instant so I can just deposit what I bet. With fiat books, you keep much larger balances and withdrawals aren't immediate. We go through third party processors.

I've also found the margins lower with the bitcoin books. Nitrogen and Betcoinsports are -105 in the NFL. There are more offerings with the bitcoin books. Jetwin and Nitrogen have the best pregame offers.

Anonibet and BetVIP are the best for live betting. For live betting NFL they will both have alt lines for both spread and total, races to, double chance, and more. The lines are true live betting. They don't wait for commercial breaks. You can make bets in between plays. Betcoinsports also has live betting.

Anonibet, Jetwin and BetVIP have cash bonuses, not free plays.

If you tell me the books that you play at and the markets that you play, I'd be glad to post comparisons.

**Hareeba!** · 10-04-14, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by raiders72001

I can only speak about an American point of view. With the bitcoin books, I don't have to keep a large balance. Deposits are instant so I can just deposit what I bet. With fiat books, you keep much larger balances and withdrawals aren't immediate. We go through third party processors.

I've also found the margins lower with the bitcoin books. Nitrogen and Betcoinsports are -105 in the NFL. There are more offerings with the bitcoin books. Jetwin and Nitrogen have the best pregame offers.

Anonibet and BetVIP are the best for live betting. For live betting NFL they will both have alt lines for both spread and total, races to, double chance, and more. The lines are true live betting. They don't wait for commercial breaks. You can make bets in between plays. Betcoinsports also has live betting.

Anonibet, Jetwin and BetVIP have cash bonuses, not free plays.

If you tell me the books that you play at and the markets that you play, I'd be glad to post comparisons.

My sports bets are mostly made at Matchbook, Pinnacle, SBO and Betfair on US pro sports, soccer, golf and the three Aussie football codes. I could be wrong but I've yet to see any mention of bitcoin at any of those or any of the Australian bookies I'm still able to play at.

**evo34** · 10-05-14, 02:07 AM

Originally posted by Optional

The more mainstream books take on bitcoin the more players will use it and the more business bitcoin only books will get.

Although it kind of seems like people who use them now don't care as much about winning as they think their Bitcoin will grow in value anyway, so an influx of serious punters might not really be that great for them.

Huh? If I have the same transaction options at each, why would I choose to risk my funds with a 1-2 year old startup with $500 limits, vs. a place that has been around for 20 years and takes $5,000+ bets? A handful of these "bitcoin" books may survive, but it won't be because they are bitcoin books; it will be because they are well-run and well-capitalized sportsbooks.

**evo34** · 10-05-14, 02:13 AM

Originally posted by raiders72001

You send bitcoins to an agent. The agent converts the bitcoins into Asian dollars, Hong Kong or Singapore. The agent then sets up an account for you with a sportsbook and deposits the money in Asian dollars.

You will then be making bets with Asian dollars. When you want a withdrawal, you go through the agent again. The agent converts back to bitcoins and sends the bitcoins back to you. When dealing with agents, if there is a problem, you deal with the agent. The book will not help you out.

There are agents that work in different ways. With the books in CR, they are converting to US dollars and sending that to the book. Be very careful with the agents since some have stiffed players. It's much safer to just use the established bitcoin books.

There are different reasons to use each individual book as there are with fiat books. Some have bonuses, reduced juice, live betting and different offerings. Some target American markets and other European markets. Here are some of the strong bitcoin books: Anonibet, Nitrogen, Betcoinsports, Jetwin and BetVIP.

I would not agree that an "established" bitcoin book (1-2 years of operating on tiny volume) is any safer than an established agent. Both have downside risk, but the upside (low juice, high limits) is far greater using the latter.

**Art Vandeleigh** · 10-05-14, 03:28 AM

Originally posted by evo34

Huh? If I have the same transaction options at each, why would I choose to risk my funds with a 1-2 year old startup with $500 limits, vs. a place that has been around for 20 years and takes $5,000+ bets? A handful of these "bitcoin" books may survive, but it won't be because they are bitcoin books; it will be because they are well-run and well-capitalized sportsbooks.

This is a statement you need to reasearch more thoroughly because 1) you don't have to keep bitcoin in your account at the bitcoin book, and 2) anonymity allows for multiple accounts which can make multiple bets on the same game.

**Just Blaze** · 10-05-14, 03:45 AM

It shouldn't at books that matter. I majored in comp sci and think BTC is great, I am extremely surprised to see 5D offer it and it has nothing to do with BTC as valid currency. For BTC to gain more traction it has to lose the demographic that currently find it most appealing (hint - the demographic is probably not successful players save one country)

I would frankly be slightly concerned to see high volume books offer it, it 100% opens you to additional risk in a couple ways and Pinny did not exit markets to then counter intuitively offer BTC. All they would see it as is a slight reduction in overhead and an increase in adverse risk management probably.

**evo34** · 10-05-14, 05:47 AM

Originally posted by Art Vandeleigh

This is a statement you need to reasearch more thoroughly because 1) you don't have to keep bitcoin in your account at the bitcoin book, and 2) anonymity allows for multiple accounts which can make multiple bets on the same game.

Yeah, I'm sure that will go over well when you hit a game with 10 simultaneous max bets... A "bitcoin" book does not mean one that has no rules, or has no ability to hold your funds hostage if they want to.

**Art Vandeleigh** · 10-05-14, 06:55 AM

Originally posted by evo34

Yeah, I'm sure that will go over well when you hit a game with 10 simultaneous max bets... A "bitcoin" book does not mean one that has no rules, or has no ability to hold your funds hostage if they want to.

If you're a 5k+ per game player, it's possible these bitcoin book threads aren't for you (just yet). Are you one of those folks who pays a $600 fee to Bookmaker for wiring money?

**raiders72001** · 10-05-14, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by evo34

I would not agree that an "established" bitcoin book (1-2 years of operating on tiny volume) is any safer than an established agent. Both have downside risk, but the upside (low juice, high limits) is far greater using the latter.

I would agree that an established agent is safer than a new 1 or 2 man operation. There are a lot of these 1 and 2 man operations that have gone under.

Blockbet
BTCStakebet
Bitcoinlivebets
Coinbet
Bit365

It's my feeling that Anonibet and Nitrogen are doing the most volume of the bitcoin books. Anonibet has been around since 2011 and Nitrogen 2012. They both market internationally and have the biggest player bases of the bitcoin books.

**evo34** · 10-05-14, 09:30 AM

Originally posted by Art Vandeleigh

If you're a 5k+ per game player, it's possible these bitcoin book threads aren't for you (just yet). Are you one of those folks who pays a $600 fee to Bookmaker for wiring money?

Never wired anything to Bookmaker, bc I have never had the need to. They have book to book transfers, and plenty of them have flexible withdrawal options, including bitcoin now.

**Art Vandeleigh** · 10-05-14, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by evo34

Never wired anything to Bookmaker, bc I have never had the need to. They have book to book transfers, and plenty of them have flexible withdrawal options, including bitcoin now.

Well, book to book tranfers TO Bookmaker are free, but sending them the other way costs $100 per transfer, up to 3k. So moving 9k out of Bookmaker book to book costs $300 cash, plus the cost to you of whatever rollover the book(s) you are sending it to wants you to roll for them accepting the 9k deposit, plus the costs of using the withdrawal option at the book to finally get the money back to you. All this is getting close to the $600 fee for a 10k Bookmaker wire transfer. It's too much, any way you slice it, and it doesn't have to be that way any more.

**elgreco** · 10-06-14, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by Hareeba!

Presumably you are talking of people who are attracted to using bitcoin because moving traditional currency to and from bookmakers is hindered by regulation?

Most of the world doesn't have that problem. The bitcoin books would seem to be mostly targeting US players?

I have yet to be attracted to using bitcoin as I have yet to see any benefit at all over traditional currency. And I'm not aware that any of the books I play at have yet introduced bitcoin.

Ever get my PM's?

**raiders72001** · 10-06-14, 01:36 PM

Bitcoins up 10% today http://coinmarketcap.com/