Men, Always make sure your girl is down with Abortion.

itchypickle · 06-04-11, 12:56 PM

Originally posted by Dr.Gonzo

That whole spiel is a lie.

The Palestine Papers prove Israel is not serious about reaching a reasonable settlement. Israel was to respected as a Jewish sovereign state and the land dispute was heavily in Israel's favor given what they are entitled to under International Law. Yet Israel rejected the terms.

Quote me some figures of non combatant deaths from a human rights group to prove this 10:1 figure. You can't because it's a made up number with no factual evidence.

Terrorism is not conducted by some rouge IDF solider it is Israeli government policy. If I can quote Tzipi Livni, "Israel went wild in Gaza, which is what I demanded." She also said, the day after Israel withdrew on Channel 10 news that "I demanded real hooliganism in Gaza." She went on to say, "I have no regrets about any of my decisions during the invasion of Gaza, and I'm proud of those decisions."

A) Pretty sure it was Arafat that didn;t sign the previous two agreements after he said he would...Hamas as a political party now still has, at its core doctrine, to not have an Israeli state period...much less talk with them about land swaps.

B) It's obvious we're not going to see eye to eye on the issues of the two sides...but the Jenin raids and Gaza operations are not what I was referring to on the rogue IDF troops. And 'human rights groups'? You need to be wary of their motive before you select which ones are fair parties. The facts are this...hide your head in your hands or shout la la la la la all you want but they do not go away....it is not Israelis blowing up civilian buses...it is not Israelis sending women and children strapped with explosives into work check points..it is not Israeli's taking every new weapon they receive and running to lob rounds into housing areas......but it IS Israelis who from time to time react with greater force than need be against COMBATANTS...not families walking to market to get food. Tell me honestly....if it were Hamas or Palestinian leadership who had the Air Force that Israel does....and they also had the tanks/armored carriers....and all the mortars and heavy artillery they can ask for....do you think we'd still be in a back and forth or would they have destroyed Israel years ago??

So your victimology seriously misplaced on this one. That is as plain as it gets..forget the talking heads who claim one thing....look at the reality for a change.

Dr.Gonzo · 06-04-11, 01:30 PM

Israel and Palestine agreed in principle Clinton to the parameters yet they both put forth reservations. The Taba summit ended officially when Barak withdrew his negotiators.

You want to talk about FACTS yet you ignored every FACT I posted. You ignore the Palestine Papers to the point which I'm sure you haven't even browsed them. You fail to source your 10:1 claim. Just admit you lied and save us some time. You fail to address the Livni quotes because you can't. You don't want to address the Gaza raid because they amount to war crimes in the mind of any rational person. Yet you produce more of the same generic propaganda as usual. But the FACTS don't lie. Go look at the non combatant casualties.

Dr.Gonzo · 06-04-11, 01:35 PM

I have a serious question for you. Do you support the pre 1967 borders?

Saunders FTW · 06-04-11, 02:38 PM

Uh ohh...

itchypickle · 06-04-11, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by Dr.Gonzo

I have a serious question for you. Do you support the pre 1967 borders?

happen

Not sure how many times I need to say.. YES Israel has done wrong on more than one occasion concerning operations. But to say they are the only ones guilty is lunacy. No I haven't read the Palestine Papers, so I can't comment on what I haven't studied. Regarding the ratio of attacks issue it was not an exact the number statement, was meant to convey if you've ever lived Israel, certain times of the year there will be multiple rocket attacks per week for a month plus....all aimed at CIVILIANS not military housing....then after several weeks Israeli forces mount an operation either through an airstrike on a building housing the weapons, or through a door to door roundup of bombmakers....it's similar to living in a metro area in the U.S. where gang violence and the police response are common to see...only the gangs there blow up buses and launch mortars instead of knives and semi-autos.
On the '67 borders....it's not a simple yes/no answer on that one seeing as how areas in and out of there have changed so much.....both on the Israeli and Palestinian sides. A perfect example of this is the settlement issue...remembers a few years ago when the Israeli govt displaced 9000 of it's citizens to give that West Bank sector away 'so the rockets and fighting would stop'......the people left and within 2 weeks the Palestinians and Hamas fought AMONG THEMSELVES for control of it...the Israelis either moved abroad or moved in with family...fast forward to 2007/2008 multiple condos and apts have gone up and while these are meant to bring back the displaced famileis...these 'settlements' as they are known in the media are stacks of apartment buildings holding a few hundred per complex (think if it like college apartments) and they are reported in the news as these massive new towns when in fact 1200 people live in an area the size of a football field.

If there is going to be any sort of agreement - forget the fact that as long as the Holy Sites will never be agreed on- both sides are going to have to give up things...the Israelis can afford to restructure their area but the key is to have the Palestinians handle their refugee situation away from the metro area and take help from friendly assets in the region, i.e. other Arab nations who would help them but not the Israelis.

I'll end with a probing question to see how open minded you are here....what is your stance on Hamas now claiming to be merely a political wing and wanting a seat at the table?

Dr.Gonzo · 06-04-11, 05:05 PM

The Palestine papers | The Guardian

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/palestine-papers

More than 1,600 confidential Palestine papers recording Middle East peace talks with Israel and the US, leaked to al-Jazeera TV and shared with the Guardian

Dr.Gonzo · 06-04-11, 05:05 PM

Blockade of Gaza allegations

Main article: 2007–present blockade of the Gaza Strip
The report stated that the blockade constituted a violation of Israel's obligations as an occupying power in Gaza.[70]
[edit] Civilian targeting allegations

The report disputes Israel's claim that the Gaza war would have been conducted as a response to rockets fired from the Gaza Strip, saying that at least in part the war was targeted against the "people of Gaza as a whole". Intimidation against the population was seen as an aim of the war. .[71] The report also says that Israel’s military assault on Gaza was designed to "humiliate and terrorize a civilian population, radically diminish its local economic capacity both to work and to provide for itself, and to force upon it an ever increasing sense of dependency and vulnerability”.[49]
The report focused on 36 cases that it said constituted a representative sample. In 11 of these episodes, it said the Israeli military carried out direct attacks against civilians, including some in which civilians were shot “while they were trying to leave their homes to walk to a safer place, waving white flags”.[49] Talking to Bill Moyers Journal, Goldstone said that the committee chose 36 incidents that represented the highest death toll, where there seemed to be little or no military justification for what happened.[72] According to the report, another alleged war crime committed by IDF include “wanton” destruction of food production, water and sewerage facilities; the report also asserts that some attacks, which were supposedly aimed to kill small number of combatants amidst significant numbers of civilians, were disproportionate.[49]
The report concluded that Israel violated the Fourth Geneva Convention by targeting civilians, which it labeled "a grave breach".[73] It also claimed that the violations were "systematic and deliberate", which placed the blame in the first place on those who designed, planned, ordered and oversaw the operations.[74] The report recommended, inter alia, that Israel pay reparations to Palestinians living in Gaza for property damage caused during the conflict.[75]
[edit] Al-Maqadmah mosque incident

Main article: 2009 Ibrahim al-Maqadna Mosque strike
The report stated that the strike on the al-Maqadmah mosque on the outskirts of Jabilyah occurred when between 200 and 300 men and women attended for their evening prayer, with 15 people being killed and 40 wounded as a result of the attack. The Mission has established that the Israeli armed forces fired a missile that struck near the doorway of the mosque. The Mission found that the mosque was damaged and lodged in its interior walls with "small metal cubes", several of which were retrieved by the Mission when it inspected the site. The Mission concluded that the mosque had been hit by an air-to-ground missile fitted with a shrapnel fragmentation sleeve, fired from an aircraft. The Mission based its findings on investigation of the site, photographs and interviewing witnesses. The Mission found no indications that the mosque was used to launch rockets, store munitions or shelter combatants. The Mission also found that no other damage was done in the area at the time, making the attack an isolated incident. The Mission concluded that the Israelis intentionally bombed the mosque.[3][76] Judge Goldstone said: "Assuming that weapons were stored in the mosque, it would not be a war crime to bomb it at night... It would be a war crime to bomb it during the day when 350 people are praying". He further added that there is no other possible interpretation for what could have occurred other than a deliberate targeting of civilians.[68] The report also reproduces a statement from the Israeli government concerning the attack, where the Israeli government both denies that the mosque was attacked and states that the casualties of the attack were Hamas operatives. The report says that the position of the Israeli government contains "apparent contradictions" and is "unsatisfactory" and "demonstrably false".[3]
[edit] Zeitoun incident

Main article: Zeitoun incident
According to interviews with family members, neighbors, Palestinian Red Crescent personnel, submissions from various NGOs and visits to the site, the extended al-Samouni family gathered together in one house after the fighting in the area was over, ordered there by Israeli soldiers patrolling their Gaza neighborhood of Zeytoun as part of the ground phase of the Gaza War; when five men stepped out of the house to collect firewood, a missile struck them, fired, possibly, from an Apache helicopter; several more missiles followed, this time aimed directly at the house. In all, 21 family members were killed, including women and children. When the surviving al-Samounis attempted to leave and make their way to Gaza City, they were told by an Israeli soldier to return to the house.[68] In April 2011, Goldstone wrote that the shelling of the home was apparently the consequence of an Israeli commander’s erroneous interpretation of a drone image.[77]
[edit] Al-Fakhura school incident

Main article: Al-Fakhura school incident
The report says that IDF's mortar shelling near a United Nations-run Al-Fakhura school in the Jabaliya refugee camp, which was sheltering some 1,300 people, killed 35 and wounded up to 40 people. The investigation did not exclude the possibility that Israeli forces were responding to fire from an armed Palestinian group, as Israel said, but said that this and similar attacks "cannot meet the test of what a reasonable commander would have determined to be an acceptable loss of civilian life for the military advantage sought".[49] The mission criticized IDF for the choice of the weapons for the supposed counterstrike and concluded that the IDF fire at the Al-Fakhura street violated the law of proportionality.[78]
[edit] Abd Rabbo family incident

Main article: Abd Rabbo family incident
According to the Mission's report, the committee found Khaled and Kawthar Abd Rabbo to be credible and reliable witnesses and it had no reason to doubt the veracity of the main elements of their testimony, which it says is consistent with the accounts it received from other eyewitnesses and NGOs.[78] The report concludes that the Israeli soldiers deliberately shot at the family members, as they could not perceive any danger from the house, its occupants or the surroundings. The report bases its conclusion on the premise that the family, consisting of a man, a young and an elderly woman and three small girls, some of them waving white flags, stepped out of the house and stood still for several minutes waiting for instructions from the soldiers.[78]
[edit] White phosphorus allegations

"Israeli Army drop White Phosphorus bombs on Gaza residential areas".[79](picture from Al-Jazeera)

The report says that Israeli forces were "systematically reckless" in determining the use of white phosphorus in built-up areas.[80] The writers highlighted the Israeli attack on the UN Relief and Works Agency compound in Gaza City on 15 January, the attack on the Al Quds hospital, and the attack on the Al Wafa hospital, each of which involved using white phosphorus. They described its use as disproportionate or excessive under international law. More generally, the UN report recommended that "serious consideration should be given to banning the use of white phosphorus in built-up areas.”[81]
[edit] Human shields allegations

The report also accused Israel of using Palestinians as “human shields” and torturing detainees.[81] The human shields accusations were supported in 2010, with Israel charging two soldiers with forcing a 9-year-old Palestinian boy to open bags suspected of containing bombs.[82]

Dr.Gonzo · 06-04-11, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by itchypickle

I'll end with a probing question to see how open minded you are here....what is your stance on Hamas now claiming to be merely a political wing and wanting a seat at the table?

The Hamas government is the result of Israeli foreign policy. The are a legitimate democratically elected government so like it or not they have the right to enter negotiations. Do I like them? No but that is irrelevant. Israel should have agreed to the reasonable settlement that Erekat proposed. But they are an apartheid state attempting to ethnically cleanse the Arabs from their Holy Land. Hamas is actually the worst thing possible for the Palestinian people because Israel can use it as an excuse not to reach an agreement.

Dr.Gonzo · 06-04-11, 05:17 PM

And talking about apartheid. Do you happen to know who was the most significant supporter of the South African Apartheid state when the rest of the world had shunned them? You guessed it, Israel.

itchypickle · 06-04-11, 06:03 PM

Gonzo, thanks for the links...will definitely read over them (1600 pages of mixed meetings over a decade might take a while to ponder on but it'll make for great reading). I noticed in browsing the summary that since these were all leaked as accounts by the Palestinian sides...the U.S and British and Israelis involved are yet to release their minutes taken and supporting docs...unless some were in the Wiki leak cables that I didn't catch....would like to see how they all link up.

CreaturE · 06-04-11, 06:14 PM

I'm a Republican, however, I definitely think abortion is a great solution to depopulating this world. It's so overpopulated and something needs to be done. Also abortion is definitely not killing a living human. Something living can't be 100% dependent. A baby in the womb is absolutely 100% dependent. Screw all of you for not wanting abortions. They're a great thing.

trixtrix · 06-04-11, 07:50 PM

Originally posted by ChileCheese

How can I be a pedo when I find Asian girls disgusting?
Something does not add up there.

logic is strong w/ this one, young jedi