Can someone update me on "Taxes"?

[Timmay]

I was wondering how that works when playing poker.


Also the legalities of playing online in the U.S..

Thanks guys.

[daneblazer]

You win any big public tournaments or make a $3,000+ withdrawal/deposit in your bank account because of it? The vast majority of us won't be paying taxes.

[Auto Donk]

I was wondering how that works when playing poker.


Also the legalities of playing online in the U.S..

Thanks guys.

most sites will 1099-g you if you have over 600 in winnings for the calendar year.... casinos will do the same, generally speaking, on a per trny basis..... makes choppin big trnys sometimes difficult, because most casinos, and definitely the wsop, assign first through tenth place money for tax purposes.... u have to hope u have some degenerate at the final table who's down for the year who can take the 1099 for first place, second, etc.....

[NunyaBidness]

most sites will 1099-g you if you have over 600 in winnings for the calendar year.... casinos will do the same, generally speaking, on a per trny basis..... makes choppin big trnys sometimes difficult, because most casinos, and definitely the wsop, assign first through tenth place money for tax purposes.... u have to hope u have some degenerate at the final table who's down for the year who can take the 1099 for first place, second, etc.....

No online sites issue 1099-gs. Maybe those subscription ones do, I have no experience with them.

Most live tournaments outside of the majors will pay you in chips instead of issuing a 1099-G.

Taxes are owed on all gambling income in the US. If it is extra income you can deduct your gambling losses against it. If you do it professionally you can file either as a hobbyist or a professional (schedule C), there are advantages and disadvantages to both.

[daneblazer]

Yea you guys didn't get your 1099's from Bovada last week?

[mikejamm]

If you win over $600 cash in any tourney or casino and you can very well expect a 1099 to come your way. The nice thing is you can also deduct gambling losses, the catch is they can't be "more" than you winnings. So for example, you won $1200 placing in a tourney, but you also lost $1200 that same year playing blackjack, you're good to go, you owe no taxes. Just make sure to keep receipts of cash withdraws from atms, comp play or whatever, so you have something to back it up just in case uncle sam decides he wants proof.

Now, can I borrow a tax free 100 pts off you Timmay to play tax free poker here at sbr?

[NunyaBidness]

Hate to admit it, but the Donk is right, win over $600 cash in any tourney or casino and you can very well expect a 1099 to come your way.

This is very much not true. I've cashed in dozens of tournaments all over the country, I've received 1099s only from the WSOP. Most smaller places simply pay you out in chips. A few places do issue W-2gs, but its not the norm, certainly not in Vegas.

In fact, as recent as 2006 the WSOP paid out in chips themselves.

[mikejamm]

This is very much not true. I've cashed in dozens of tournaments all over the country, I've received 1099s only from the WSOP. Most smaller places simply pay you out in chips. A few places do issue W-2gs, but its not the norm, certainly not in Vegas.

In fact, as recent as 2006 the WSOP paid out in chips themselves.

Well the WSOP doesn't pay out in chips now bud, you might wanna update yourself on current tax laws, instead of recounting shit that happened in 2006.

And I don't know where you play at pal, and the rules probably do vary from state to state. But any major tourney you register for that pays out prizes above $600, will make sure you're on their books for tax purposes, especially the big money ones. So you might wanna watch your mail more carefully, because it's on them (Federally), to account for where that money is going.

[NunyaBidness]

Well the WSOP doesn't pay out in chips now bud, you might wanna update yourself on current tax laws, instead of recounting shit that happened in 2006.

And I don't know where you play at pal, and the rules probably do vary from state to state. But any major tourney you register for that pays out prizes above $600, will make sure you're on their books for tax purposes, especially the big money ones. So you might wanna watch your mail more carefully, because it's on them (Federally), to account for where that money is going.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Federal tax laws don't vary from state to state, dumb dumb.

I've been playing poker professionally since 2002, with many cashes under my belt. I have received exactly 4 1099-gs, and all were from CET.

I did not receive a 1099-g at the World Poker Open in Tunica, not at the Borgata, not at the Golden Nugget's series, not the Binions series, not at the Wynn.

[Triple_D_Bet]

Simple answer: any income you derive from poker is legally required to be reported, regardless of whether anyone else reported your income, your losses, or anything else.

More complicated answer: you can deduct gambling losses, but only if you itemize, and only to a certain extent (albeit one that won't affect most gamblers)....and even then to hold up, you need receipts for both wins and losses, or at least credible self-reported records. Professional gamblers get hosed by AMT.

In reality, since most of this stuff isn't reported to the IRS (some B&M casinos do, some don't, haven't played at an online one that did yet) most people do whatever they feel they can get away with...and it's hard to argue anyone should voluntarily pay taxes to a government who actively demonizes the hobby

[TheMoneyShot]

Clearly what 3D just said.

[Auto Donk]

[I did not receive a 1099-g at the World Poker Open in Tunica, not at the Borgata, not at the Golden Nugget's series, not the Binions series, not at the Wynn.[/QUOTE]

Duh........ you have to make the money to get a 1099-G..... they don't give em out to early railbirds!

any sizable cash is recorded and reported; I thought it was a reporting requirement of $5,000 or more beginning in back around 2008..... so obviously u haven't cashed for more than 5k in a trny, or you would have been issued a 1099-G..... it's the f'n law and has been for 6-7 years now...... problem, as I mentioned earlier, is that chopping at the final tbl becomes harder because all posted positions over 5k will get 1099'd at the stated payout for that position (not the reduced amount via the chop), and no one ever wants to be 1099'd for more than they actually got outta the trny via the chop..... Was very fortunate the few times it made a difference to have a couple players with big losses on the year who didn't mind reporting that they received first/second place money when they actually received quite a bit less via the chop, and thus had an extra ten-twenty k 1099'd to them that they didn't actually receive.....

[mikejamm]

[I did not receive a 1099-g at the World Poker Open in Tunica, not at the Borgata, not at the Golden Nugget's series, not the Binions series, not at the Wynn.

Duh........ you have to make the money to get a 1099-G..... they don't give em out to early railbirds!

any sizable cash is recorded and reported; I thought it was a reporting requirement of $5,000 or more beginning in back around 2008..... so obviously u haven't cashed for more than 5k in a trny, or you would have been issued a 1099-G..... it's the f'n law and has been for 6-7 years now...... problem, as I mentioned earlier, is that chopping at the final tbl becomes harder because all posted positions over 5k will get 1099'd at the stated payout for that position (not the reduced amount via the chop), and no one ever wants to be 1099'd for more than they actually got outta the trny via the chop..... Was very fortunate the few times it made a difference to have a couple players with big losses on the year who didn't mind reporting that they received first/second place money when they actually received quite a bit less via the chop, and thus had an extra ten-twenty k 1099'd to them that they didn't actually receive.....[/QUOTE]

Agree with you there, Donk. This Nunya idiot probably has paid taxes alright, it's called the losing your ass and becoming a railbird tax. I basically said and agree with the same thing as you and Triple, of course mr. "I'm still living in 2006", is another "poker professional" hanging out at sbr, so what do we know?

[Triple_D_Bet]

$5k is the amount required specifically for poker tournaments by the IRS, and it has to be reported by the casino if you win that much or more....cash games fall under "other gambling" in most cases. The $600 threshold that seems to have become more common is based on the most restrictive IRS guidelines, which lay out different values for different forms of gambling. Just speculating, but I'd assume the casinos use as few thresholds as possible to simplify administration and/or make sure they're more likely to be in compliance with the changing whims of the IRS.

If you're serious about claiming gambling income and you're not already using a tax professional, you should do so...the internet is a notoriously unreliable source for tax advice! Plenty of professionals should be able to help you fill out a W-2G properly, and they should save you more than you pay them.

In regards to nunya being a poker pro, who knows...but the fact that he's never played poker here is evidence in his favor imo

[zwoeins]

In regards to nunya being a poker pro, who knows...but the fact that he's never played poker here is evidence in his favor imo

[daneblazer]

...and it's hard to argue anyone should voluntarily pay taxes to a government who actively demonizes the hobby

[mikejamm]

In regards to nunya being a poker pro, who knows...but the fact that he's never played poker here is evidence in his favor imo

No it fuk'in doesn't. You just assuming an unproven statement that doesn't mean shit. A lot of people who play here also play in casinos tourneys and the circuit when it comes through, doesn't make them a fuk'in pro. If he's such a fuk'in big shot, how come he doesn't know shit about taxes regarding gambling? Because he's never cashed shit to have to worry about taxes is more the common denominator here.

[Triple_D_Bet]

No it fuk'in doesn't. You just assuming an unproven statement that doesn't mean shit. A lot of people who play here also play in casinos tourneys and the circuit when it comes through, doesn't make them a fuk'in pro. If he's such a fuk'in big shot, how come he doesn't know shit about taxes regarding gambling? Because he's never cashed shit to have to worry about taxes is more the common denominator here.

Shrug, I'm not saying he's a pro, how would I know and why would I care? I'm just saying that never touching SBR poker is consistent with how a pro player would behave...I'm sure I speak for most (if not all) of the guys who have played professionally when I say that while playing poker for a living, the last thing you want to do is play in 1.5 hour tournaments every day for a chance to win a $20 bonus you then have to play more to earn

[daneblazer]

Not every poker pro plays tournaments. A pro just means you play for a living...it doesn't necessarily mean you're living particularly well. Several pros live "off the grid" and if they do file taxes, they're filing for the bare minimum they possibly can file. A few are students and can say they're going to school to dodge paying taxes. Some will just say they live with their parents still. There's a decent percentage of poker "pros" who don't know a whole lot about taxes.

[mikejamm]

Not every poker pro plays tournaments. A pro just means you play for a living...it doesn't necessarily mean you're living particularly well. Several pros live "off the grid" and if they do file taxes, they're filing for the bare minimum they possibly can file. A few are students and can say they're going to school to dodge paying taxes. Some will just say they live with their parents still. There's a decent percentage of poker "pros" who don't know a whole lot about taxes.

You missed the whole fuk'in point of the OP question dane. I don't give a fuk at what level pro you think you are, because if you're a student, how the fuk are you being a supposedly full time student and you're also a poker pro living with mommy and daddy or whatever? Obviously, you and I have very different definitions of what a real poker pro is and it certainly isn't some wanna be nit living with mommy and daddy while calling him or her self a poker pro.

And 2nd, "There's a decent percentage of poker "pros" who don't know a whole lot about taxes?" I'd like to know where your proof is to back up this ridiculous statement. Any "real' poker pro definitely knows about taxes on winnings because if that is how he's making his living, you can bet your ass Uncle Sam knows about it too. Let's just say hypothetically, you're a real pro who travels the circuit and not some student wanna be who's living with mommy and dada. You played in 40+ tournaments last year, cashed in some, hit the rail in others. You ended up with total winnings of just over 70k, not great, but decent enough. Now, every time you placed, the sponsoring casino, tournament director, etc, had you fill out a W-2G, hmm I wonder why? Because as I stated in my earlier post, casinos are required by law to report who the fuk won what. So go ahead and toss that 1099 or W-2G in the garbage and just wait how long it takes the IRS to send you a nice letter stating you owe them a big fuk'in chunk of change and now there's interest and penalties too.

I won $1200 on a slot machine one night and guess what I had to fill out, yep a nice little form with my social number and everything else. Win $600 at a horse track and guess what, you're getting a 1099 brah. Why do you think lottery retailers will only pay out $599 or less on winning tickets? Because anything above that and you can bet your ass you're gonna owe taxes on it.

Final word, because ignorance of the law is no excuse. Doesn't make a bit of fuk'in difference who you are pro, amateur, dude who got lucky and hit a nice win in his local casino, or a so called "student and can say they're going to school to dodge paying taxes", what ever the fuk that means. Win a large enough amount either at one time or over a period of time, and you're gonna owe taxes on it.

But hey, to each his own I say. Go ahead and press your luck, just remember, this isn't the fuk'in olden days and computers track every fuk'in thing we do. Google that Richard Hatch guy sometime, the first winner of Survivor, he thought he'd give the IRS the middle finger too, I'm pretty sure he got a nice invitation to a 6 x 9 foot prision cell for decent amount of time and yep Uncle Sam fuk'ed him for what he owed and then some.

[daneblazer]

Valid points Mike. My definition of a pro is one who plays for a living. He doesn't necessarily have to be winning a lot of money. Hard to argue that it's wise trying to dodge paying taxes for big cashes in tournaments, but how would the government go about tracking wins in cash games? That's primarily what I'm talking about. They can't. I know some pros in NC and who float around to card houses in Florida who never pay a dime in taxes. They're underground. They're nomads who live out of nearby hotel rooms and room comps when they can get them. If they ever filed taxes they probably have some default loans that would set off alarms at the IRS. That's just an example... If your definition of a pro is a little different from mine, that's fine. You can not pay taxes on 20k of winnings in cash games a whole lot easier than 70k in public tournaments.

[Triple_D_Bet]

What Dane said...not every professional player (someone who plays as main source of income; that's what a professional anything is) needs to make 6 figures or be well-known. Not sure what the percentage is, but I'd venture to say there are a lot more professional cash game players than tourney players. It was painful enough playing cash for a living; I think tourneys would have been unbearable with the increased variance, bankroll required and stricter schedule.

[hockey216]

i do not give tax advice. consult your CPA or tax attorney.

if you live in the usa, you are required to pay taxes on your gambling winnings. Gambling winnings are taxed at ordinary income under miscellaneous income. losses are itemized deduction. losses beyond winnings (net loss) are not deductible.

file your 1040 accurately. pay the irs. don't get thrown in jail. they will throw you in prison for a decade, seize your house, garnish your income once you get out of jail, etc. etc.

do not mess with the irs.

PS i hate taxes and want to lower them.

...the law is the law, though.

[mikejamm]

Valid points Mike. My definition of a pro is one who plays for a living. He doesn't necessarily have to be winning a lot of money. Hard to argue that it's wise trying to dodge paying taxes for big cashes in tournaments, but how would the government go about tracking wins in cash games? That's primarily what I'm talking about. They can't. I know some pros in NC and who float around to card houses in Florida who never pay a dime in taxes. They're underground. They're nomads who live out of nearby hotel rooms and room comps when they can get them. If they ever filed taxes they probably have some default loans that would set off alarms at the IRS. That's just an example... If your definition of a pro is a little different from mine, that's fine. You can not pay taxes on 20k of winnings in cash games a whole lot easier than 70k in public tournaments.

Agree with you wholeheartedly Dane, if you're some slum, grinding around from place to place playing cash games, totally different story. Yeah, tough way to make a living and you're certainly not gonna establish any type of permanent housing or credit worthiness if you're a rolling stone. You're right, you could probably keep it totally "underground" and still do ok.

I was speaking in a sense of tournament players and pros who travel the circuit. Still though, even with cash games you are probably banking somewhere, unless you're dumb enough to carry around large chunks of cash with you, and as we all know banks get quite sketchy and nosy about cash deposits. Build up as little as 10k and they'll certainly let the IRS know through their required record keeping.

There are different ways and variances around the whole angle, just like the game itself. I'm on the side of keep every dollar you can and fuk those thieving government bastards! They steal enough from us as it is.
It is good to be informed though, so you know the deal when you hit that big cash score or final a major tournament and win big.

[Timmay]

most sites will 1099-g you if you have over 600 in winnings for the calendar year.... casinos will do the same, generally speaking, on a per trny basis..... makes choppin big trnys sometimes difficult, because most casinos, and definitely the wsop, assign first through tenth place money for tax purposes.... u have to hope u have some degenerate at the final table who's down for the year who can take the 1099 for first place, second, etc.....

You hope for someone that wins to be down for the year, so they don't have to pay? Also when playing cash games.... How do you record your losses?

[Timmay]

If you win over $600 cash in any tourney or casino and you can very well expect a 1099 to come your way. The nice thing is you can also deduct gambling losses, the catch is they can't be "more" than you winnings. So for example, you won $1200 placing in a tourney, but you also lost $1200 that same year playing blackjack, you're good to go, you owe no taxes. Just make sure to keep receipts of cash withdraws from atms, comp play or whatever, so you have something to back it up just in case uncle sam decides he wants proof.

Now, can I borrow a tax free 100 pts off you Timmay to play tax free poker here at sbr?

Yea, but if you keep your receipts for withdrawals at atms... Isn't that not good enough? Someone can easily pull out cash and not gamble with it. Doesn't seem strong enough to show your losses.

[Timmay]

You win any big public tournaments or make a $3,000+ withdrawal/deposit in your bank account because of it? The vast majority of us won't be paying taxes.

Why is the mark 3k plus?

[Timmay]

No online sites issue 1099-gs. Maybe those subscription ones do, I have no experience with them.

Most live tournaments outside of the majors will pay you in chips instead of issuing a 1099-G.

Taxes are owed on all gambling income in the US. If it is extra income you can deduct your gambling losses against it. If you do it professionally you can file either as a hobbyist or a professional (schedule C), there are advantages and disadvantages to both.

For example: What if you won 150k, but lost 110k... Netting 40 and it's someones only job... It's not extra income... They wouldn't have to pay for 150... do you happen to know the advantage/disadvantages?

[Timmay]

Simple answer: any income you derive from poker is legally required to be reported, regardless of whether anyone else reported your income, your losses, or anything else.

More complicated answer: you can deduct gambling losses, but only if you itemize, and only to a certain extent (albeit one that won't affect most gamblers)....and even then to hold up, you need receipts for both wins and losses, or at least credible self-reported records. Professional gamblers get hosed by AMT.

In reality, since most of this stuff isn't reported to the IRS (some B&M casinos do, some don't, haven't played at an online one that did yet) most people do whatever they feel they can get away with...and it's hard to argue anyone should voluntarily pay taxes to a government who actively demonizes the hobby

I still can't seem to find a way to show all the losses at the casino. Also... I guess all the lotto scratchers. So if one was reporting all their losses on scratchers... They couldn't just keep all their losing tickets, but they would need to report their wins meaning you gotta keep track of all those $5 winning tickets? It would be such a pain writing down, "I won a ticket!!" Lets put $1 in winnings lol.

[Timmay]

[I did not receive a 1099-g at the World Poker Open in Tunica, not at the Borgata, not at the Golden Nugget's series, not the Binions series, not at the Wynn.

Duh........ you have to make the money to get a 1099-G..... they don't give em out to early railbirds!

any sizable cash is recorded and reported; I thought it was a reporting requirement of $5,000 or more beginning in back around 2008..... so obviously u haven't cashed for more than 5k in a trny, or you would have been issued a 1099-G..... it's the f'n law and has been for 6-7 years now...... problem, as I mentioned earlier, is that chopping at the final tbl becomes harder because all posted positions over 5k will get 1099'd at the stated payout for that position (not the reduced amount via the chop), and no one ever wants to be 1099'd for more than they actually got outta the trny via the chop..... Was very fortunate the few times it made a difference to have a couple players with big losses on the year who didn't mind reporting that they received first/second place money when they actually received quite a bit less via the chop, and thus had an extra ten-twenty k 1099'd to them that they didn't actually receive.....[/QUOTE]


That seems ridiculous. That doesn't seem right at all. Couldn't the casino declare a chop and report how much was issued to each person?

[Timmay]

$5k is the amount required specifically for poker tournaments by the IRS, and it has to be reported by the casino if you win that much or more....cash games fall under "other gambling" in most cases. The $600 threshold that seems to have become more common is based on the most restrictive IRS guidelines, which lay out different values for different forms of gambling. Just speculating, but I'd assume the casinos use as few thresholds as possible to simplify administration and/or make sure they're more likely to be in compliance with the changing whims of the IRS.

If you're serious about claiming gambling income and you're not already using a tax professional, you should do so...the internet is a notoriously unreliable source for tax advice! Plenty of professionals should be able to help you fill out a W-2G properly, and they should save you more than you pay them.

In regards to nunya being a poker pro, who knows...but the fact that he's never played poker here is evidence in his favor imo

Cool, I really appreciate your reply 3D.

[Timmay]

Not every poker pro plays tournaments. A pro just means you play for a living...it doesn't necessarily mean you're living particularly well. Several pros live "off the grid" and if they do file taxes, they're filing for the bare minimum they possibly can file. A few are students and can say they're going to school to dodge paying taxes. Some will just say they live with their parents still. There's a decent percentage of poker "pros" who don't know a whole lot about taxes.

How can someone write it off and not pay because they go to school or live with their parents?

[daneblazer]

How can someone write it off and not pay because they go to school or live with their parents?

Ask Jakub how he does it

I'm no tax expert...if you really feel like you need to be paying taxes you should go ask someone on 2p2.

[Auto Donk]

How can someone write it off and not pay because they go to school or live with their parents?

generally speaking, if that's all you got, pay the taxes. to be a professional entitled to write it off, it has to be a primary source of your income. some gambler rollin into a casino a few times a year will not qualify. it has to be a part of your livelihood, and if it is, you can deduct the expenses related to that profession (all buy ins, travel, hotels, etc.) against your winnings. but if you're only an occasional gambler, you can't deduct your losses from one trip versus your winnings on another -- at best you can offset your winnings from a particular trny with the expenses directly related to that trny (your buy in, gas to go play it, accomodations on that trip, meals, etc.) if it's your livelihood, you can deduct all those expenses for the year vs. your winnings for the year..... just like any other business/profession.

[Timmay]

Ask Jakub how he does it

I'm no tax expert...if you really feel like you need to be paying taxes you should go ask someone on 2p2.

Cool thanks.