could you fold KK to 5 bet?

[ronzer]

Sitting at more than double the average stack about 14,500 chips. I get KK UTG , blinds are 125/250, open raise 750. UTG+1 makes it 1400(one of the few people in the tourney with a equal stack), I make it 4200 , he makes it 9200. At this point i was pretty sure it was AA, but couldn't lay it down...I shoved.

He flips up AA....I lose.

was in the top 10 out of 200+....odds are pretty bad that an equal stack is at my table, let alone has Aces when I got Kings.

[theballsflop]

Pukeworthy spot, he's basically polarising his range into AA or total air there, since he'll be shoving over your 4.2k rereraise with AK, QQ, JJ. Unless he's a total fish that overplays those hands, most online players flip up AA/KK there 99% of the time.

[mpaschal34]

depends on the situation...type of player (aggressive or tight), buy in (stake), etc.

95% of the time i wouldn't be able to get away from that. in fact i couldn't get away from it a couple of months ago in a live tourney for decent money and i was pretty sure he had AA. i guess i live by the motto that if i have KK preflop and he has AA, it just wasn't meant to be.

however, i can see myself at where you were (double average stack) and near the money (big payout) that i could lay it down.

if anything, i probably would never have made it 4200 and see what the flop brought me. then again, if he had been super aggressive to get that stack, i would have been doomed like you.

[daneblazer]

If he had a similar sized stack his min 3bet and 5bet screams call me as he's never folding to your shove. I'm not really faulting you for shoving or folding though...rough spot.

[thetrinity]

depends on the stakes of the tournament and his image up to that point.

[STAX]

Yes, this is AA alot of the time, but you can't fold. Sometimes guys show up with other premiums, thinking their QQ/JJ/AK is as good as AA. Other players may show up with air here, trying to rep a premium. While I agree, it is AA a lot of the time, you will still see other hands enough that folding is wrong.

If you go your whole poker career without ever folding KK preflop when facing an all in, you will be fine.

[ballahollic2]

I am sure there are some spots where folding KK would be correct but if your going to fold in that spot assuming the hand played the way it did up till your last decision then you are just asking to lose money long run. The player would have to be so beyond tight and literally not even be capable of doing it with one other hand, even then I am going broke the way it played. I am never putting in 30% of my stack there and then finding a fold. Maybe if you know the player perfectly and know he isn't capable of 5 betting there with anything but aces ever u can make ur 4 bet smaller and then fold but the player would have to be so beyond bad to come to that conclusion with less then a 60 BB starting stack and X amount of ur starting stack already in the middle.

[daneblazer]

I am sure there are some spots where folding KK would be correct but if your going to fold in that spot assuming the hand played the way it did up till your last decision then you are just asking to lose money long run. The player would have to be so beyond tight and literally not even be capable of doing it with one other hand, even then I am going broke the way it played. I am never putting in 30% of my stack there and then finding a fold. Maybe if you know the player perfectly and know he isn't capable of 5 betting there with anything but aces ever u can make ur 4 bet smaller and then fold but the player would have to be so beyond bad to come to that conclusion with less then a 60 BB starting stack and X amount of ur starting stack already in the middle.

I think this is a pretty good assessment. Though I think he has air there close to
0% of the time regardless of the type of player he is. No player with a clue is going to 5 bet a utgs 4bet raise and price himself in to call a shove with Butkus and even players without a clue are doing that with a power hand to get action. If you think you can throw in JJ QQ AK into his range then shove away. If he's old man nit shaking in his seat with excitement, it's time to consider a fold. It's not like you're up the creek with 10k in chips. Sounds like some of you guys are saying "you're going to be up against aces most of the time but you can never fold.". If that's the case, fold! Especially deep. Though Ill go back to what I said and Depending on what you think of the villain either shove or fold is fine as there's arguments for either. I don't think either one is worth losing sleep over.

[ballahollic2]

I think this is a pretty good assessment. Though I think he has air there close to
0% of the time regardless of the type of player he is. No player with a clue is going to 5 bet a utgs 4bet raise and price himself in to call a shove with Butkus and even players without a clue are doing that with a power hand to get action. If you think you can throw in JJ QQ AK into his range then shove away. If he's old man nit shaking in his seat with excitement, it's time to consider a fold. It's not like you're up the creek with 10k in chips. Sounds like some of you guys are saying "you're going to be up against aces most of the time but you can never fold.". If that's the case, fold! Especially deep. Though Ill go back to what I said and Depending on what you think of the villain either shove or fold is fine as there's arguments for either. I don't think either one is worth losing sleep over.

I will go as far as to say he has air there exactly 0% of the time. I really don't believe many players are that bad where all other hands can be excluded besides AA(and if they are its tough to know in a short tournament type setting). AA, KK, QQ,JJ, AK all seem viable depending on the player and can be slightly added and subtracted to what his range will have there. In a tournament against a semi unknown I just think its impossible to adequately say he can ONLY have aces. I guess my point was that in his exact spot I am folding .0000001% of the time and that small percentage comes from him accidentally exposing his hand. He kinda prices himself out from ever being able to fold if that was for some reason an option by 3Xing his open and then 3Xing his 4 bet. IMO the hand played itself though no matter what the exact sizes were.

[ronzer]

10k was well above average stack size i coulda folded after the 4200 bet. I know it breaks the 30% rule, but I would have still been sitting good.

The guy was new to the table so he didn't have an image. This was the daily Bovada 55+5 20k Gtd(late reg almost over), so it was a decent size tourney.