thanks again, mikejammmin.....

[Jayvegas420]

I don't agree with Triple D's statement:
There is no such thing as a "right" to someone elses services, whether that's an auto mechanic's services, a garbage man's or a doctor's. Forcing someone else to provide services to you against their will is the exact opposite of freedom.

This is kinda a double edged sword. I don't want to waste too much of anyone's time explaining how we live in an economic system where we as consumers are forced to pay for insureance simply because you own a car or house. There are many examples of services that we are, as consumers forced to pay for.

I also disagree with this:
When we try, we get things like the ACA, which doesn't decrease costs in the short or long run.

Costs are decreased at the state level & it is the individual states(mostly Republican states) that are fighting a bill which reduces the financial burden on the state for 2 or 3 years then those states are only liable for 10% after that.

I'm kinda talkin' outta my A$$ here cause I am not going to pretend I am fully informed or an expert on the issue but, Triple's points is that Barry hasn't any substancial successes. Well, we know why Republicans are like this. They don't want to give any credit for anything Barry has done nor, do they want to create an atmosphere where he can accomplish anything in the future. This is the game. If Obama told a Republican that he liked the way they looked, they would shoot themselves in the face.

And when I say we know why most Republicans are like this....It's for one very simple reason. True hard core Republicans have a very hard time accepting that the leader of their country is black. Thus it's hard to co-operate & give credit where credit due.

yeah, that's right. I said it.

Sorry btw DDD, that I didn't address any of the other issues but, I'm kinda slow & didn't have time to read the whole post. I will tonight.

And I don't think anyone can accuse MikeyJamm of being a left wing liberal after this post:

You're on camera every fuk'in day the minute you step outside your front door. And pretty soon, that city street you're walk'in on, will have listening devices to go along with all that video. I welcome it

[Triple_D_Bet]

I don't agree with Triple D's statement:
There is no such thing as a "right" to someone elses services, whether that's an auto mechanic's services, a garbage man's or a doctor's. Forcing someone else to provide services to you against their will is the exact opposite of freedom.

This is kinda a double edged sword. I don't want to waste too much of anyone's time explaining how we live in an economic system where we as consumers are forced to pay for insureance simply because you own a car or house. There are many examples of services that we are, as consumers forced to pay for.

I also disagree with this:
When we try, we get things like the ACA, which doesn't decrease costs in the short or long run.

Costs are decreased at the state level & it is the individual states(mostly Republican states) that are fighting a bill which reduces the financial burden on the state for 2 or 3 years then those states are only liable for 10% after that.

I'm kinda talkin' outta my A$$ here cause I am not going to pretend I am fully informed or an expert on the issue but, Triple's points is that Barry hasn't any substancial successes. Well, we know why Republicans are like this. They don't want to give any credit for anything Barry has done nor, do they want to create an atmosphere where he can accomplish anything in the future. This is the game. If Obama told a Republican that he liked the way they looked, they would shoot themselves in the face.

And when I say we know why most Republicans are like this....It's for one very simple reason. True hard core Republicans have a very hard time accepting that the leader of their country is black. Thus it's hard to co-operate & give credit where credit due.

yeah, that's right. I said it.

Sorry btw DDD, that I didn't address any of the other issues but, I'm kinda slow & didn't have time to read the whole post. I will tonight.

And I don't think anyone can accuse MikeyJamm of being a left wing liberal after this post:

You're on camera every fuk'in day the minute you step outside your front door. And pretty soon, that city street you're walk'in on, will have listening devices to go along with all that video. I welcome it

There are many things we're currently forced to pay for by law that are highly questionable...but you can't have the right to other people's property or services by definition. A right is something you have that can't be taken away; not allowing others to refuse to give you money or serve you for an agreed upon price is a fundamental violation of their right to their own property and actions. Unfortunately, most people don't seem to think about things this way, preferring instead to try to vote themselves possession of other people's property.

"Decreased costs at state level" isn't accurate; the federal government can't give states money it didn't take from them in the first place, so when the cost of providing the services goes up, the states and taxpayers are covering the bill. The indirect way these things are paid for clouds the issue, and leads to people somehow thinking the federal government is "helping them out" by taking more of their money and giving some of it back to them. Similarly, some people will see lower premiums because they're being subsidized by others...costs still didn't go down.

It's really too big of a generalization to say Republicans can't handle a black president, and it's not the simplest explanation (although it probably holds true for some). People are more comfortable when they have a "team" to root for, and when they pick a team, they prefer to stop thinking critically about the process and just support their team in almost whatever they do. Many Republicans don't like Obama for valid (and admittedly some not-so-valid) ideas; they simply fail to turn that critical judgement on a President with an (R) in front of his name, or any of their heroes as well who support the same stuff.

Just read mike's 2nd post...right to privacy is another one of those fundamental rights that we seem to have forgotten about when the government promised it could make all the bad things go away if we let them snoop more. To the contrary, surveillance often only helps catch the crimials after they've committed the crime, doing little to actually stop it. Years of the TSA inefficiency and despite their claims, they haven't stopped a single meaningful attack. The "if you have nothing to hide you shouldn't worry" argument is ridiculous...if you don't mind the government rhaving all your information, feel free to give it to them...but when you try to force others to give up theres, you violate their rights.

We fought a war over due process and taxation a couple centuries ago, and now we've convinced ourselves that these are good things that will somehow make life better, all because we want to be complacent and not take responsability for ourselves...simply amazing

[Untied]

Auto Donk is NOT thecentaur

However he does seem to share a talent for SBR poker and a disdain for Mikespamm

Which one are you, then ?

[daneblazer]

....

[Jayvegas420]

Which one are you, then ?

[Triple_D_Bet]

Sorry Dane, I'll switch to k13 mode to make it a little shorter:

Obama vs Romney
Obama vs McCain
Bush vs Kerry
Bush vs Gore
Clinton vs Dole
Clinton vs Bush
Bush vs Dukakis
Reagan vs Carter
Carter vs Ford
Nixon vs McGovern
Nixon vs Humphrey
Johnson vs Goldwater
Kennedy vs Nixon
Eisenhower vs Stevenson
Eisenhower vs Stevenson
Truman vs Dewey
Roosevelt vs Willkie
Roosevelt vs Landon
Rossevelt vs Hoover
Hoover vs Smith
Coolidge vs Davis

21 coinflips in a row, wish I could have bet a billion dollars that the US would lose them all

[mikejamm]

Auto Donk is NOT thecentaur

However he does seem to share a talent for SBR poker and a disdain for Mikespamm

And you've become aware of this after being here for less than 24 hours?

Yeah Jay, what do you wanna bet that this fuk'in "spiritocenty" douche bag is centaur?

[mikejamm]

Never read a damn book in your life huh?

[mikejamm]

Some extremely valid points being raised here guys on both sides. And Jay, thanks for joining in and adding some intelligent insight into to conversation. I almost feel like I should apologize to Autodonk/Centuar for highjacking his thread, but fuk him I wont!

It's been good discussing this and we could easily stretch this sucker out to 20 pages with conflicting views and reasonable explanations as to why the measures taken are working or are a complete failure.

The bottom line is, healthcare costs have and are spiraling out of control in our country. Many people have lost their homes and entire life savings over one devastating illness and I'm speaking from first hand experience here fellas because I watched it happen to my mother as she battled the lung cancer that ended her life. When she wasn't having me filling out yet another god damn form for some test so it could be approved and mostly denied by some fuk head sitting in a corporate office who could give a shit about real people and their lives, it was fielding the constant phone calls about bills from every fuk'in place and who was owed, what was covered, who the fuk'in doctor that day was, errors and charges for things my mother never even received.

The population is aging rapidly in our country gentlemen, and something, has to to be done to insure that hard work'in people and retired ones have something in place to protect them in the event of some bad fate in life comes along. I honestly don't know what that is, but what we have now is not working. Is it so wrong just to say that as an American, you deserve some quality of life and the best treatment possible in the event you need it? Without the repercussions or stress the will ultimately kill you? I believe that is exactly the way the system is operating now, "just deny them long enough and wait for them to die"

And Trip, contrary to your statement that some terrorist attacks have not been prevented, is not true bro. You're not gonna hear about and the media certainly isnt going to report and publicize every "almost" attack out there. But they are being prevented and detoured. And I totally agree, the right to privacy is another one of our fundamental rights, and although some people think that right is being trampled in the dirt, it's not. Safety above all else is what were talk'in about here. The bad guys don't give a shit about your privacy either and the people trying to stop them don't have no magic wand to tell good from bad. So were all in the same boat, only problem is, some fuk heads are trying to sink it, while the rest of us are try'in to keep it afloat. It's a delicate balance. So if gotta take my shoes off before I fly or let some TSA worker look in my suitcase, it's not that big of a deal. The world is way different place now, and the radicals among us have less respect for life now more than every before.

I'll give you the "team" aspect of being on one side or the other and rooting for your guy. Still gotta roll with Jay here and what I described in my original post. There exist a good 'ol rich white boy network in DC to this day, and never in million years would any of them "root" for a black man to be president, even if he was on the republican side. lol! Again, what they fail to realize is the changing demographics of America and that we are a melting pot of cultures and diversity. These guys had control for decades and now it's rapidly fading away and it's driving them to do things that are unethical and in some cases just downright stupid. Shutting down the government comes to mind and cutting food benefits for the needy. Completely out of touch with the real America, because they've never had to work or struggle to survive, just get elected and get more money to keep getting re-elected.

[theballsflop]

Mikejamm, it feels fkn weird to read your posts without some sort of profanity littering them.

[Triple_D_Bet]

Some extremely valid points being raised here guys on both sides. And Jay, thanks for joining in and adding some intelligent insight into to conversation. I almost feel like I should apologize to Autodonk/Centuar for highjacking his thread, but fuk him I wont!

It's been good discussing this and we could easily stretch this sucker out to 20 pages with conflicting views and reasonable explanations as to why the measures taken are working or are a complete failure.

The bottom line is, healthcare costs have and are spiraling out of control in our country. Many people have lost their homes and entire life savings over one devastating illness and I'm speaking from first hand experience here fellas because I watched it happen to my mother as she battled the lung cancer that ended her life. When she wasn't having me filling out yet another god damn form for some test so it could be approved and mostly denied by some fuk head sitting in a corporate office who could give a shit about real people and their lives, it was fielding the constant phone calls about bills from every fuk'in place and who was owed, what was covered, who the fuk'in doctor that day was, errors and charges for things my mother never even received.

The population is aging rapidly in our country gentlemen, and something, has to to be done to insure that hard work'in people and retired ones have something in place to protect them in the event of some bad fate in life comes along. I honestly don't know what that is, but what we have now is not working. Is it so wrong just to say that as an American, you deserve some quality of life and the best treatment possible in the event you need it? Without the repercussions or stress the will ultimately kill you? I believe that is exactly the way the system is operating now, "just deny them long enough and wait for them to die"

I hear ya, health care is definitely less-than-optimal. There's no such thing as a list of prices you can browse to see how much a service costs (like just about every other business), and the doctors and nurses themselves don't even know how much things cost....it's all a complicated mess of insurance company deals, government handouts and writeoffs. I don't have the detailed solution either, but it's very clear that ramming more legislation down the industry's throat isn't going to help anything (especially when the legislation is drafted by the insurers in te first place!). The only way to make meaningful changes is the market-based solutions: consumers need to demand the changes they want to see from these companies, and in large enough numbers that the companies are motivated to change. Throwing laws at them won't work, they're going to slip through the loopholes their congressmen write into them, and either way they're not going to operate at a loss. When you make rules like "You can only charge people at most 3 times your lowest rate, regardless of their condition (when the industry stats show a risk-based number is about 6 times), they're not goin to lose money on the high-risk people; they're going to charge those people the same and double the amount they charge the low-isk people. This is exactly what we'e seeing, young healthy people having their premiums skyrocket while quality of care doesn't increase at all. The lackluster enrollment rate among these healthy people is also completely predictable; why should they even bother with insurance if they can just pay a fine and get insurance whenever they actually need it?

Insurance companies aren't necessarily these evil behemonths waiting for people to die; they're in business to provide services to consumers, and are dependent on these consumers to approve of the services they provide to stay in business. However, when you give them funding straight from the government and force people to be their customers, you are no longer their customer; he government is. The same thing happens to anything federally funded, and understandably so...a business doesn't need to keep anyone happy except the people who pay it (the government), and so long as we kcontinue to insist that we can force them to do what we want, we're going to keep making healthcare worse.

If you want to change healthcare, you need to star by getting rid of these regulations and government funding for them. Then, either demand the businesses provide services that are up to your standards, or if you think they shouldn't be charging so much (as so many voters seem to believe), start your own insurance business, provide better services and take heir customers away. Time after time, the free market has shown us that educated consumers demanding changes is the only meaningful way to effect change.

And Trip, contrary to your statement that some terrorist attacks have not been prevented, is not true bro. You're not gonna hear about and the media certainly isnt going to report and publicize every "almost" attack out there. But they are being prevented and detoured. And I totally agree, the right to privacy is another one of our fundamental rights, and although some people think that right is being trampled in the dirt, it's not. Safety above all else is what were talk'in about here. The bad guys don't give a shit about your privacy either and the people trying to stop them don't have no magic wand to tell good from bad. So were all in the same boat, only problem is, some fuk heads are trying to sink it, while the rest of us are try'in to keep it afloat. It's a delicate balance. So if gotta take my shoes off before I fly or let some TSA worker look in my suitcase, it's not that big of a deal. The world is way different place now, and the radicals among us have less respect for life now more than every before.

That's just it Mikey: you won't hear their exact playbook or stories published on the news, but when they can't even give examples to Congressional committees who have the clearance to see this stuff, they're either hiding their successes from Congress or they have none to share...which is more likely, and why would either be acceptable?

The proble,m here is that "the bad guys" are our own creation. We went in guns blazing to try to reshape the world in our image, and understandably people didn't care or that. If you want to make the world a safer place and remove their biggest recruiting method it's as easy as minding our own damn business.Unfortunately, increased spying doen't keep us absolutely safe...it's a hard truth to the world that their are risks to living in it, and nobody can be 100% safe. Whether or not it's worth violating people's privacy en masse to potentially save a handful of lives is debatable, but the violation of our rights is not. The entire reason the Constituion exists as a changable document is so that if we consider i so crucial to violate these rights, we have an ammendment process that can give the government that power legally. The process is designed to avoid a bare majority (the type that usually elects a president and often congressmen) from barely getting into office and trampling on the rights of a large percentage of the population (as happens now). If you and others consider privacy violations worth the potential gain, then ratify an ammendment; anything else is unconstitutional. Unfortunately, a lot of our problems can be traced to circumventing the Consitution. Look at prohibition for example: we considered that serious enough to warrant an ammendment, but the bullshit "War on Drugs" (which does the same thing on a larger scale) only requires bills and executive orders? Just one example of how a bare majority circumvents the Constitution and oppresses a large minority.

I'll give you the "team" aspect of being on one side or the other and rooting for your guy. Still gotta roll with Jay here and what I described in my original post. There exist a good 'ol rich white boy network in DC to this day, and never in million years would any of them "root" for a black man to be president, even if he was on the republican side. lol! Again, what they fail to realize is the changing demographics of America and that we are a melting pot of cultures and diversity. These guys had control for decades and now it's rapidly fading away and it's driving them to do things that are unethical and in some cases just downright stupid. Shutting down the government comes to mind and cutting food benefits for the needy. Completely out of touch with the real America, because they've never had to work or struggle to survive, just get elected and get more money to keep getting re-elected.

Shrug, if people don't like Obaa because he's black, they're idiots. I doubt it though; people who are successful might have their prejudices, but they usually dont get to be and stay successful by making dumb decisions based on them. They'll act in their best interests, and the unethical things they're doing aren't dumb either, because they've convinced a majority of voters that it's better that way. I'd say they have a much better understanding of the average American's mindset then the other way around, and they know exactly how to phrase things so that voters with good intentions will mindlessly vote in their favor. The ACA is a perfect example; people support it because there's a real problem and they believe politicians who tell them they can make it better if we just give them more power, instead of actually reading it and realizing it's fundamentally unable to impove the situation.

Good conversation so far gents, let' keep it up

[Jayvegas420]

Our health care system up here is flawed as well & is by no means perfect but, chances are when you die in Canada, you're gonna die in a bed & the government is gonna pick up the tab for nearly everything.
When Republicans endorse capitalism & convince themselves that there is no place in the economic structure for regulation & the markets will take care of themselves, they aren't entirel wrong because on some levels this will work but, when you play politics with your healcare system & cater to corporate intrests....The markets just won't take care of themselves. People will just die, as the costs to stay alive rise higher & higher.

Living in Canada kinda disqualifies me from form a legitimate opinion on your heath care problems or how to solve them.
Like I said: I'm kinda talkin' outta my A$$ here.

[Triple_D_Bet]

Our health care system up here is flawed as well & is by no means perfect but, chances are when you die in Canada, you're gonna die in a bed & the government is gonna pick up the tab for nearly everything.
When Republicans endorse capitalism & convince themselves that there is no place in the economic structure for regulation & the markets will take care of themselves, they aren't entirel wrong because on some levels this will work but, when you play politics with your healcare system & cater to corporate intrests....The markets just won't take care of themselves. People will just die, as the costs to stay alive rise higher & higher.

Living in Canada kinda disqualifies me from form a legitimate opinion on your heath care problems or how to solve them.
Like I said: I'm kinda talkin' outta my A$$ here.

What's your basis for saying this? That's actually exactly what markets do best: match people's desires with other people offering services at a mutally agreed upon cost. Outside interference creates exactly that situation: costs rising and services provided inefficiently (in this case, more people suffering due to the inefficiencies).

[Jayvegas420]

The services are provided by doctors in hospitals (generally) & the services are received by the patients. Where do fit insurance companies who take from the process without actually providing anything.

I don't know where he mentions it but Weiner might be onto something when he claimes to be able to solve the health care problem.

[Triple_D_Bet]

The services are provided by doctors in hospitals (generally) & the services are received by the patients. Where do fit insurance companies who take from the process without actually providing anything.

I don't know where he mentions it but Weiner might be onto something when he claimes to be able to solve the health care problem.

The insurance companies fit in where every insurance service is supposed to: instead of requiring people to save money for when bad things happen, insurance companies sell a policy that is supposed to spread the risk out among many and take care of the covered issues for a steady, predictable payment. For some insurances, this isn't a problem; data is gahered, risk is assessed (extremely accurately I should add, insurance data assessing risk vs various factors is about as top notch as you can get and has been for centuries), and prices are set so that the insurance comany makes some money.

With health insurance, it's a bit different. Everyone has a different set of needs to be covered, and many desire different levels of coverage, but still want access to everything everywhere. On top of which, people being pretty attached to life, nobody is a fan of being told that rare diseases with insanely expensive treatments aren't economically feasible to insure...coverage for these can only come at the expense of jacking up costs to all other insured. A third factor also comes into play significantly: when you have carte blanche to have all your medical needs taken care of, there's a moral hazard involved...why take care of yourself or watch your diet/exercise needs? Just focus on doing what you want instead, and other healthier insured people will bail you out when you incur expensive surgeries, medications and therapies as a result.


Historically this wasn't a problem because treatments were farily simple, but more importantly, part of American culture was accepting personal responsabilityfor one's life. The country was founded amid a desire for independence, and the notion that it was proper to take care of yourself and not to expect everyone else to support you (although charity might provide relief when needed). Instead, we've devolved into a society that wants to defray the costs of our lifestyles onto others or future generations, seemingly oblivious to the ruin it causes even in theshort term.

I wouldn't have much confidence in Weiner's ability to solve anything...it's almost sad that his philandering was what stopped his career instead of what should have (his lack of any desire to reign in out of control spending and government overreach).

[Auto Donk]

wow.... this thread went way off the rails.... even I want to get it focused again..... "hey fck you autocock you fcking plant piece of suck-outing sh_t!!! You're a no-talent donkey fck who only wins and is atop the leaderbd b/c u suck cocck!!!! and b/c ur a fckin' newbie!!! and ur fckin' centaur!!!! and ur going to hell u fck!!!!"

[andywend]

$1500 a month? You're a bigger fuk'in dumbass that I thought. Yeah, keep criticizing the very thing that will bring healthcare costs down even for your stupid ass and insure millions of Americans who can now afford healthcare. You right wing assholes are all the same, me ,me, fuk'in me! You don't have a clue about the work'in class Americans in this country who keep it moving fuk head.

All you jerks care about is how much you can fuk over the poor and middle class. At least now parents can keep their kids on their insurance until they are 24. Insurance companies can no longer drop children or people with pre existing conditions. Maybe if you took the time to read the entire Affordable Health Care Act, you might just learn something andy. Of course tea party douche bags like you never will get it, because your head is shoved so far up your ass, you can't see any light at all, just darkness, and that is sad, really fuk'in sad.

Bottom line is, you're an ignorant racist who can't stand that a black man is in the white house, can't stand that a black man found and killed with worse fuk'in terrorist in our history, something no dumb ass republican could ever do. Can't stand that a black man stood up for everyone in this country not just the filthy rich.

All you fuk'ers have ever done is shut down the government, cost people their jobs, homes, security, and created constant grid lock. Your party is the whiny fuk'in babies who think they can stop the government process when they don't get their way. You're unable to compromise for fear you might have to share some of the wealth and benefits to all. It kills your lily white asses that a black man basically told you to shut the fuk up! And that my poor unintelligent friend is why you assholes will never control or have presidential power in this country ever again.

Oh and by the way andy, I don't hate you or anybody, I consider all you right wing zealots worthy adversaries. We have our views on life and the best way to go about living it. The only difference being, I look toward the future and what kind of world I want to leave my kids, you on the other hand could give a rat's ass about preserving the environment or saving anything for future generations. You don't care about giving anything back and charity is a dirty word to you greedy assholes. Admit it andy, you're so fuk'in tight you can't even give up a measly $200 to turn pro at a web site that has given out thousands of dollars to its members and charitable organizations. Why the fuk are you even here?

Just look at all that hate and rage spewing off that keyboard of yours. Nothing makes me happier. Since I'm dealing with someone whose brain is the size of a peanut, the following has little chance of making it through (A couple of quick questions):

1. If ObamaCare is as good as you seem to claim, then why did the democratic politicians who wrote it made sure to EXEMPT themselves, their loved ones and their staff from having to participate in it alongside the American people?

2. Labor unions have been begging for this going back over 50 years. Why did over 1,500 labor unions beg the Obama administration to be let out of ObamaCare and why did Obama allow them to do so?

3. If ObamaCare is NOT good enough for the democrats who wrote it or the labor unions who backed it so strongly, then how on Earth could you possibly think its good enough for you and the people you care about?

I can think of at least 5 different black men I would love to see in the White House. I don't care about the color of Obama's skin. I do care about and OPPOSE strongly his socialist/Marxist views and the direction he wants to lead our country. Obama did NOT kill Osama bin Laden, Navy Seals did using the information they got from terrorists using torture techniques backed by President Bush and opposed by President Obama. We would NEVER have found the location of Bin Laden if Obama had his way.

Why would I possibly want to share my wealth with a piece of shit like you? What makes you think you're entitled to the wealth I've earned? I would rather set my money on fire than give it to human trash like yourself. My net worth has more than doubled during the Obama administration and I have no doubt things have gotten much WORSE for you and that is the way it will always be no matter who is in the White House, Senate or the House. All the liberal legislation in the world won't help idiots like you and conservatives will always make the necessary adjustments to deal with socialists like Obama and they have done just that during the last 5 years.

MikeJamm, make no mistake, all you do is HATE AND HATE AND HATE and it shows in every post you write. You constantly blame all of your shortcomings on others. Just look at your behavior when you constantly lose at the poker tables as you create new threads every day how the SBR poker site is rigged against you. Its absolutely pathetic!!! Saving for future generations? Its the democrats that want to raise and raise and raise the debt ceiling and continue to bankrupt future generations. The republicans are trying to stop him but there is little they can do.

The group of people that are going to be hurt the most by ObamaCare is the middle class as they will have no choice but to go along with ObamaCare giving up the quality medical care they are currently eligible to receive. I probably give more away to charity each year than you earn.

Why am I here? I'm here to enrage liberals just like you and clearly I am doing just that.

[andywend]

Our health care system up here is flawed as well & is by no means perfect but, chances are when you die in Canada, you're gonna die in a bed & the government is gonna pick up the tab for nearly everything.
When Republicans endorse capitalism & convince themselves that there is no place in the economic structure for regulation & the markets will take care of themselves, they aren't entirel wrong because on some levels this will work but, when you play politics with your healcare system & cater to corporate intrests....The markets just won't take care of themselves. People will just die, as the costs to stay alive rise higher & higher.

Living in Canada kinda disqualifies me from form a legitimate opinion on your heath care problems or how to solve them.
Like I said: I'm kinda talkin' outta my A$$ here.

ObamaCare won't just hurt Americans, its going to hurt Canadians and have some sort of negative effect on the entire planet. Canada is well known for waiting for U.S. drug patents to expire at the end of 12 years and then mass marketing generic versions of those drugs so Canadians pay much less for these drugs than U.S. citizens do.

However, once ObamaCare is fully implemented U.S. drug research is going to be vastly reduced, new breakthrough drugs will NOT be invented at any where near the same pace as they are now and therefore Canadians won't be able to steal these breakthrough drugs once their patents expire.

When you take the PROFIT MOTIVE out of medicine, people will no longer take the risk of investing in drug research.

There are many other reasons that drive up the cost of medical care in the U.S. (people no longer paying for the medical care they consume is a biggie). However, the quality of medicine being disbursed in the U.S. has never been seriously questioned and destroying that quality to increase access is NOT the answer to the problem.

85%-90% of the U.S. population has some form of medical insurance and the vast, vast majority of these people are going to get raped by ObamaCare and will wind up paying more money for much worse medicine. I don't trust politicians and they are certainly not equipped to handle the complexities of medical care. The fact that the democrats excluded themselves, their families and labor unions from having to participate in ObamaCare alongside the American people is all I need to know that its just not going to work and since all the legislators are EXEMPT, there won't be any real rush to fix all the problems that are certain to pop up when this heinous legislation finds its legs.

[Triple_D_Bet]

A few good points in there Andy, but hard to sort through all the rage and contempt to find them. I'm irritated that low information voters (vast majority of them in the best case scenario) alowed this and other atrocities to get this far, but if you're here to "enrage liberals", you're part of the problem

[spiritocenty]

triple d for president

[Jayvegas420]

The fact that the democrats excluded themselves, their families and labor unions from having to participate in ObamaCare alongside the American people


Is this actually true?

The only exception I take to DDD's original post is that, up here in Canada we pay additional taxes on things that contribute to poor health. We are taxed nearly 400% more on our liquor than Americans. You could call this liquor tax or you could call it a serosis(sp) of the liver tax. We are taxed close to 500% on our tobacco products. You could call this a cigareete tax or you could call it a lung cancer tax, either way we pay alot of tax on products that contribute to the higher cost of health care. Thus enabling the government to better cover all heath care costs for all of us.
You said that the insurance company fits in when people can't afford to save up for their medical expenses but I take the position that no one should have to pay for their medical expenses & the entire bill should be flipped by the government. This way you would not have to deal with corrupt insurance companies who are out to make a bit more than "some money".
They are out to gouge & steal & defraud for as much as they can while handing kick backs to legislater's who make it easier for insurance companies to basically defraud the public.
As far as the personal heath responsibility is concerned, I also don't believe that beause you make certian lifestyle choices you have now determined that insurance companies get to decide who is treated & who isn't.

Finally I think you are way off when it comes to Weiner's personal life & his position on deregulation. Reigning in government spending is the least of your problems. Unless you want to curb the amount of money the government delegates to TARP or bail out funds. All that those monies successfully accomplished was to allow the people who created the financial crisis to collect their negotiated bonuses.

When I heard this week that the DOJ was signing off on all the settlements for Chase & Citi & BkofAma etc. I was appauled that if a regular citizen committed systemic fraud over a 10 year period they would be jailed for LIFE. But if you are an American Corporation you pay a fine about the equivilent to 1%-2% of your net worth.
Maybe this type of corruption is the type of issue that should be addressed by the DOJ & all regulating branches of government.
Still though, I feel like I am still talkin' outta my A$$ !

[Triple_D_Bet]

The fact that the democrats excluded themselves, their families and labor unions from having to participate in ObamaCare alongside the American people


Is this actually true?

No...the mistaken belief is bsed on Congress' failure to anticipate conflicts when they attached language specificall requiring Congressmen to buy insurance on the exchanges. The only "controversy" is that they continue to have much of their premiums paid for them, as most large employers do for their employees.

The only exception I take to DDD's original post is that, up here in Canada we pay additional taxes on things that contribute to poor health. We are taxed nearly 400% more on our liquor than Americans. You could call this liquor tax or you could call it a serosis(sp) of the liver tax. We are taxed close to 500% on our tobacco products. You could call this a cigareete tax or you could call it a lung cancer tax, either way we pay alot of tax on products that contribute to the higher cost of health care. Thus enabling the government to better cover all heath care costs for all of us.

We have sin taxe too; the problem is these taxes don't differentiate between responsible and irresponsible use (a glass of wine is supposed to be good for you, but it's still taxed whether your an alcoholic, or a health nut) nor are they equally applied to all things that are harmful to health (fast food, candy, other contributors to metabolic disease aren't taxed)...on top of all that, why is it right to tax these things more in the first place? Why do I not have control and responsability for what goes into my body? Why is my money taken to pay the goverment to inefficiently take care of me against my will?

You said that the insurance company fits in when people can't afford to save up for their medical expenses but I take the position that no one should have to pay for their medical expenses & the entire bill should be flipped by the government. This way you would not have to deal with corrupt insurance companies who are out to make a bit more than "some money".
They are out to gouge & steal & defraud for as much as they can while handing kick backs to legislater's who make it easier for insurance companies to basically defraud the public.

I thought you were being sarcastic at first...whatever supposed corruption you're thinking health insurance companies are up to, it pale in comparison to the crruption that is rife in government. Putting the government in control of healthcare is like replacing the head rooster in charge of the henhouse with a pack of foxes...crrpution and inefficiency is only going to increase

As far as the personal heath responsibility is concerned, I also don't believe that beause you make certian lifestyle choices you have now determined that insurance companies get to decide who is treated & who isn't.

Insurance companies are a business; just like a hair salon, or a burger joint, or any other service provided by anyone else, they should absolutely have the right to refuse to povide services so long as they abide by all agreements. If they weren't so heavily subsidized and depended on consumers or survival though, they woulnd't be able to deny many services though; if they did, the market dictates that their customers would seek service elsewhere and the company would either change its practics or go out of business. This is the basic tenet of how a market works...when the money comes from the governmet instead, as I explained above the customer who must be kept happy is no longer the peson getting care; it's the politicians who control the purse stings, and who are easily influenced by money.

Finally I think you are way off when it comes to Weiner's personal life & his position on deregulation. Reigning in government spending is the least of your problems. Unless you want to curb the amount of money the government delegates to TARP or bail out funds. All that those monies successfully accomplished was to allow the people who created the financial crisis to collect their negotiated bonuses.

The bolded part couldn't be farher from the truth...I'll chalk that up to you not following American government as closely, although it's increaingly obvious to the rest of the world. Our reckless spending and inflationary expansion of the money supply is the single largest threat to stability. Inflation such as we've seen in the past 40 years is essentially a stealth tax which hits the poorest the hardest, and is rapidly spinning past the point of no return. Of course, promising people health care without adequately funding it isn't exactly going to help.

When I heard this week that the DOJ was signing off on all the settlements for Chase & Citi & BkofAma etc. I was appauled that if a regular citizen committed systemic fraud over a 10 year period they would be jailed for LIFE. But if you are an American Corporation you pay a fine about the equivilent to 1%-2% of your net worth.
Maybe this type of corruption is the type of issue that should be addressed by the DOJ & all regulating branches of government.
Still though, I feel like I am still talkin' outta my A$$ !

The reason these corporations and the people making the decisions are given slaps on the wrists is because of regultory capture; it's what happens when the corrupt are put in charge of the corrupt and the public is too apathetic to keep anyone honest. It is an inevitable consequence of giving the government more power. So long as government has the power to artificially pick winners and losers (like with bailouts), it is inevitable that businesses will bribe officials for preferrential treatment. You can either waste all your effort trying to stop businesses from doing so (and not succeding),or you can do the only logical thing: remove that power from the government so there is nothing to buy

[Auto Donk]

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[daneblazer]

is this thing on? I said, fuuuuccdckkkkk aaaauuttttoooodooonnnnnkkkkkkk!!!!!

Sorry pal, seems like they've found the one guy they hate more than you, Obama