1. #1
    Doublethink
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    Very interesting 2022 Baseball HOF vote ballot

    https://www.baseball-reference.com/a...hof_2022.shtml
    Who U got?
    I still say Don Mattingly should be voted in. Equal numbers to Kirby Puckett career.
    I will say it over and over but he will be continually denied because he played on bad Yankee teams and the writers will not accept that.
    Last edited by Doublethink; 11-22-21 at 11:23 PM.

  2. #2
    JacketFan81
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    Honestly I'm surprised Mattingly isn't in already
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  3. #3
    Doublethink
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    Thank you.

    Somebody here knows an unrecognized great player. It's too bad his bad back halted his career but he is still equal to Puckett. But Kirby got a World Series title. Mattingly played in a Series payoff once. Playing on bad Yankee teams doesn't go well with the press writers.

  4. #4
    jjgold
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    Mattingly no way and never hit in pressure

    Teams never won

    Ricky Henderson also was always on 3rd base inflating his stats

  5. #5
    Tanko
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    The big question is does Bonds make it on his last year on the HOF ballot along with several others.

  6. #6
    MinnesotaFats
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    Guys

    When Kirbys career ended- cut short by a ball to the face, he had the 2nd highest career BA (.319) of any AL right handed batter, behind only Joe DiMaggio.

    You cannot compare Kirby to Mattingly. Donnie baseball is a second teir player.

  7. #7

  8. #8
    209 Life
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    Put the Giants legends in the HOF. Barry Bonds & Tim Lincecum

  9. #9
    ChuckyTheGoat
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    Voter boycott has kept Schilling out. Joke that Schilling isn't in yet.

    This could be a very thin year. No idea on the Veterans Committee. Anyone they're hot on?

    Schilling IMHO will get in this year or next year. ARod and MannyRam won't as continued boycott of PED-connected players.

    Two players that I'd HOPE the Vet Comm gets warm to: 1) Bobby Grich, 2) Lou Whitaker.

    Grich, Whitaker, AND Schilling have very high WAR ratings. > 70 WAR for each, well above many players who are already in.

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  10. #10
    Chi_archie
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    Let Mattingly win a WS as manager and put him in.

    he was good for a span, not great.

    he had lower rapes over replacement value vs Puckett for sure, so that helps

    Mattingly also has kept his weight under 300 and avoided fatal strokes due to hypertension and never lost his eyesight due to Glaucoma

    I like his chances, going forward

  11. #11
    BuckyOne
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    Stats


    Career stats
    [COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.541176)]



    [COLOR=#70757A !important]Year
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#70757A !important]Team
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#70757A !important]GP
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#70757A !important]AB
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#70757A !important]R
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#70757A !important]H
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#70757A !important]RBI
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#70757A !important]BB
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#70757A !important]SO
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#70757A !important]HR
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#70757A !important]SB
    [/COLOR]
    1995
    Twins


    137
    538
    83
    169
    99
    56
    89
    23
    3
    1994
    Twins


    108
    439
    79
    139
    112
    28
    47
    20
    6
    1993
    Twins


    156
    622
    89
    184
    89
    47
    93
    22
    8
    1992
    Twins


    160
    639
    104
    210
    110
    44
    97
    19
    17
    1991
    Twins


    152
    611
    92
    195
    89
    31
    78
    15
    11
    1990
    Twins


    146
    551
    82
    164
    80
    57
    73
    12
    5
    1989
    Twins


    159
    635
    75
    215
    85
    41
    59
    9
    11
    1988
    Twins


    158
    657
    109
    234
    121
    23
    83
    24
    6
    1987
    Twins


    157
    624
    96
    207
    99
    32
    91
    28
    12
    1986
    Twins


    161
    680
    119
    223
    96
    34
    99
    31
    20
    1985
    Twins


    161
    691
    80
    199
    74
    41
    87
    4
    21
    1984
    Twins


    128
    557
    63
    165
    31
    16
    69
    0
    14
    Career
    1,783
    7,244
    1,071
    2,304
    1,085
    450
    965
    207
    134






    [/COLOR]
    Kirby Pucket
    Stats


    Career stats
    [COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.541176)]



    [COLOR=#70757A !important]Year
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#70757A !important]Team
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#70757A !important]GP
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#70757A !important]AB
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#70757A !important]R
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#70757A !important]H
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#70757A !important]RBI
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#70757A !important]BB
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#70757A !important]SO
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#70757A !important]HR
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#70757A !important]SB
    [/COLOR]
    1995
    Twins


    137
    538
    83
    169
    99
    56
    89
    23
    3
    1994
    Twins


    108
    439
    79
    139
    112
    28
    47
    20
    6
    1993
    Twins


    156
    622
    89
    184
    89
    47
    93
    22
    8
    1992
    Twins


    160
    639
    104
    210
    110
    44
    97
    19
    17
    1991
    Twins


    152
    611
    92
    195
    89
    31
    78
    15
    11
    1990
    Twins


    146
    551
    82
    164
    80
    57
    73
    12
    5
    1989
    Twins


    159
    635
    75
    215
    85
    41
    59
    9
    11
    1988
    Twins


    158
    657
    109
    234
    121
    23
    83
    24
    6
    1987
    Twins


    157
    624
    96
    207
    99
    32
    91
    28
    12
    1986
    Twins


    161
    680
    119
    223
    96
    34
    99
    31
    20
    1985
    Twins


    161
    691
    80
    199
    74
    41
    87
    4
    21
    1984
    Twins


    128
    557
    63
    165
    31
    16
    69
    0
    14
    Career
    1,783
    7,244
    1,071
    2,304
    1,085
    450
    965
    207
    134






    [/COLOR]


    Don Mattingly
    Stats


    Career stats
    [COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.541176)]



    [COLOR=#70757A !important]Year
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#70757A !important]Team
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#70757A !important]GP
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#70757A !important]AB
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#70757A !important]R
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#70757A !important]H
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#70757A !important]RBI
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#70757A !important]BB
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#70757A !important]SO
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#70757A !important]HR
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#70757A !important]SB
    [/COLOR]
    1995
    Yankees


    128
    458
    59
    132
    49
    40
    35
    7
    0
    1994
    Yankees


    97
    372
    62
    113
    51
    60
    24
    6
    0
    1993
    Yankees


    134
    530
    78
    154
    86
    61
    42
    17
    0
    1992
    Yankees


    157
    640
    89
    184
    86
    39
    43
    14
    3
    1991
    Yankees


    152
    587
    64
    169
    68
    46
    42
    9
    2
    1990
    Yankees


    102
    394
    40
    101
    42
    28
    20
    5
    1
    1989
    Yankees


    158
    631
    79
    191
    113
    51
    30
    23
    3
    1988
    Yankees


    144
    599
    94
    186
    88
    41
    29
    18
    1
    1987
    Yankees


    141
    569
    93
    186
    115
    51
    38
    30
    1
    1986
    Yankees


    162
    677
    117
    238
    113
    53
    35
    31
    0
    1985
    Yankees


    159
    652
    107
    211
    145
    56
    41
    35
    2
    1984
    Yankees


    153
    603
    91
    207
    110
    41
    33
    23
    1
    1983
    Yankees


    91
    279
    34
    79
    32
    21
    31
    4
    0
    1982
    Yankees


    7
    12
    0
    2
    1
    0
    1
    0
    0
    Career
    1,785
    7,003
    1,007
    2,153
    1,099
    588
    444
    222
    14








    [/COLOR]
    Web results

    Who cares? HOF is disrespectful of the other players. Elected by idiot sportswriters who could never evaluate and compare talent as a manager. Absolutely, no clue about defensive abilities and can only read stats!











  12. #12
    gummo
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    Big Papi is the only lock.
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  13. #13
    TommieGunshot
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    There are at least 50 players better than Mattingly who never made the Hall-of-Fame. Probably more like 100. Based on that, he is clearly not even close to being deserving.
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  14. #14
    franklee168
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    There can't be a Hall of Fame without the homerun leader in it. It would just be a building.

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  15. #15
    Doublethink
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    Quote Originally Posted by MinnesotaFats View Post
    Guys

    When Kirbys career ended- cut short by a ball to the face, he had the 2nd highest career BA (.319) of any AL right handed batter, behind only Joe DiMaggio.

    You cannot compare Kirby to Mattingly. Donnie baseball is a second teir player.
    You cannot compare Mattingly to Puckett? I just did. Not only did Mattingly win 9 GG he happened to be in NY at the same time as Keith Hernandez who won 11. Again making him not look so good. Kirby won 6 GG. Don Mattingly's career ended with a bad back.

  16. #16
    pavyracer
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    Fred McGriff better stats than Mattingly and not in the HOF. You can't let everyone in. Then it is not special if everyome becomes a member.
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  17. #17
    TommieGunshot
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doublethink View Post
    You cannot compare Mattingly to Puckett? I just did. Not only did Mattingly win 9 GG he happened to be in NY at the same time as Keith Hernandez who won 11. Again making him not look so good. Kirby won 6 GG. Don Mattingly's career ended with a bad back.
    Keith Hernandez was better defensively, better offensively, longer career, and did more in the postseason than Mattingly. Yet Hernandez is not in the Hall-of-Fame, never even above 10% of the vote of the sports writers. That makes it completely clear that Mattingly did not even come close to standards of the Hall-of-Fame and is clearly not deserving.
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  18. #18
    Doublethink
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    A brief analysis if the McGriff, Hernandez, Mattingly, Puckett HOF debate. McGriff 19 yrs. 2490 hits, fielding % .992, 8985 PO, 1775 DP, 1447 assists, 1349 runs scored, 10 post season Series. Hernandez, 16 yrs. 2182 hits, fielding % .994, 17909 PO, 1682 assists, 1124 runs scored,5 post season Series. Mattingly 13 yrs. 2153 hits, fielding % .996, 14148 PO, 1104 assists, 1 post season Series. With Mattingly and Puckett being equal in numbers as stated above, then McGriff and Hernandez are better and Puckett and Mattingly are equal. I don't know why McGriff gets shunned but Hernandez snorting up the first base line might be hurting him.

    Correction McGriff 18985 PO. Also add McGriff played 2460 games at 1B started 159 of 174 at DH. Hernandez played 2014 at 1B and 7 in OF. Mattingly played 1634 games at 1B, 75 at DH, 76 OF, 3 at 3B and 1 at 2B as a lefty so 155 no 1B.
    Last edited by Doublethink; 12-01-21 at 12:24 PM. Reason: correction McGriff

  19. #19
    Doublethink
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    Why St. Louis Cards traded Keith Hernandez..

    I always wondered why St. Louis got rid of Hernandez but ...
    Snorting up the 1st base line could be part of the reason. Or the reason he was gone.
    Last edited by Doublethink; 11-30-21 at 03:34 PM.

  20. #20
    TommieGunshot
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doublethink View Post
    I don't know why McGriff gets shunned but Hernandez snorting up the first base line might be hurting him.
    Like Mattingly, there are a lot of players better than McGriff not in the Hall-of-Fame, so it is easy to see why he didn't make it.
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  21. #21

  22. #22
    TommieGunshot
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    C Freehan and Tenace
    1B Allen, Hernandez, McGwire and Palmerio
    2B Grich, Kent and Whitaker
    SS I guess Dahlen. Maybe Fregosi or Sewell if we are going with the past 100 years. Rodriguez will probably take over next month.
    3B Darrell Evans, Nettles and Rolen
    LF Bonds, Minoso and Ramirez
    CF Edmonds, Andruw Jones and Reggie Smith
    RF Dwight Evans and Sosa

    I'm sure I missed some others. Mattingly doesn't come close and McGriff also falls short.
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  23. #23
    DwightShrute
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanko View Post
    The big question is does Bonds make it on his last year on the HOF ballot along with several others.
    He should never be in the HOF. Same with Pete Rose.
    Last edited by DwightShrute; 12-02-21 at 10:28 AM.

  24. #24
    BuckyOne
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    HOF is a bad joke. Election process is flawed. All this talk about stats is comparing apples to oranges. Defensive,running,throwing skills are way under valued!

    Fans, owners, players, owners, managers are all biased.

    Some kind of electoral board should pick.

    Did the games count? Who cares if somebody was rude to a sportswriter or did not sign autographs?

  25. #25
    ChuckyTheGoat
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckyOne View Post
    HOF is a bad joke. Election process is flawed. All this talk about stats is comparing apples to oranges. Defensive,running,throwing skills are way under valued!

    Fans, owners, players, owners, managers are all biased.

    Some kind of electoral board should pick.

    Did the games count? Who cares if somebody was rude to a sportswriter or did not sign autographs?
    Yes, Buck. Sometimes, the writers miss it by a mile. Look at some of the guys that don't even get5% vote.

    Schilling non-admission is a joke. Why even have a vote? Schilling has one of the highest WARs and is not linked to PEDs/gambling.

    2B/3B often get overlooked. Tough defensive positions. Solid two-way players like Grich/Whitaker/Nettles really should get a long look.

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  26. #26
    Doublethink
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    OK so here go with possible HOF candidates not in...

    besides mentioned b4. Graig Nettles, nothing great. Dick Allen, controversial, rebellious. Dwight Evans, nothing special. Gene Tenace, nothing. Darrel Evans, shouldn't be in the conversation. Bill Freehan, Bobby Grich, NO. Lou Whitaker, Not even. Jeff Kent, possible. Scott Rolen, could be. Minnie Minoso, very borderline. Jim Edmonds, good numbers. Andrew Jones, maybe. Reggie smith, could be better. Dwight Evans, I don't think so. Vada Pinson, Al Oliver, looks good. Bill Buckner, possibly. Dave Parker, why not? Steve Garvey, looks good yes. Doc Cramer, good enough. Lane Cross, he should be in.

  27. #27
    ChuckyTheGoat
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    Double, go have another drink. You're off by a mile. Have another drink.

    Garvey is one of only two 10x All-stars not in the HOF. Garvey had very strong wrists. But he wasn't a selective hitter, very low OBA.

    Nettles was nothing special? Go watch the World Series high-lites, where he stole the show.

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  28. #28
    Doublethink
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    I said Garvey looks good. Nettles World Series high-lites don't get you in the HOF. 162 game avg. .248 134 hits 72 runs and 79 RBI. Not exactly HOF material.

  29. #29
    ChuckyTheGoat
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    Double, the Baseball HOF induction process is flawed. It starts w/ the writers being historically poor voters.

    Secondly, the Veterans Committee is biased. The Baines induction via his GM/Mgr/Teammate was a joke and lowered the bar.

    Baseball is a great game for Individual stat analysis. Garvey has a lot to like, but his low OBA (.329) isn't good enuf for a 1st baseman:
    https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...arvest01.shtml

    Nettles actually has a much higher WAR. Some of his statistics are similar to Garvey's. But he played a tougher defensive position, so his defensive contribution is much higher:
    https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...ettlgr01.shtml

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  30. #30
    ChuckyTheGoat
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    Double, remember this play? Dodgers vs Yankees, pretty funny:

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  31. #31
    Doublethink
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    Of course I remember the play. Jackson luckily got away clean. But since we're talking Yanks I want to talk about Craig Nettles. I grew up a Yankee fan starting in the '60s. I really had no choice since my father was a die hard but OK I was in on it. He made some great plays and since I played 3rd base growing up he was fun to watch. I was a fan of him but he isn't a HOFr. When we were kids it was the guy's batting average, runs scored, RBI's and homers were what mattered. Today it is WAR. I really don't understand it but it is a highly used number. Can someone explain what the hell wins above replacement is about? It seems to make sense about numbers but I just don't get it.

  32. #32
    Doublethink
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    I remember back in the day Sparky Anderson saying "Munson couldn't shine Bench's shoes."

  33. #33
    ChuckyTheGoat
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    Double, it's a more Modern view on Baseball stats. WAR tries to cut thru the historical view on stats, where certain Stat biases exist.

    WAR stands for Wins Above Replacement. So, WAR attempts to determine a player's true value to his team. How many extra wins does he contribute, vs a low-end Major Leaguer who might replace him.

    I think WAR has gained a good bit of traction in the Sabermetric community. It's pretty clear that Batting Average is historically over-valued as a stand-alone stat. I go back to the "Moneyball" about getting on base. Ergo, On-Base % is a much better stat than BA.

    I have come to give great regard to disciplined hitters who work the count and wear pitchers out. Olerud/EdgarMart on the Seattle teams come to mind.

    Defense and Performance relative to position are important. I'll reference another guy from your list above, Dwight Evans. Sabermetricians view DEvans as an excellent player. He's a classic case of the undervalued player who is now more appreciated. Evans walked a lot, which pushed his OBA up. Could really bat him anywhere in the Top/Middle of the lineup. And his defense was very good. In particular, his throwing arm was excellent. Teams eventually didn't try to run on him.

    See my Garvey vs Nettles comparison. Garvey MOSTLY played 1b, except for some early days at 3b. Nettles MOSTLY played 3b. Garvey and Nettles each won Gold Gloves.

    But 3b is CLEARLY a tougher position, so IMHO he has to be the better player. Third-basemen are in pretty short supply in the HOF. Arguably, the one position that demands Defensive prowess and expects power production (from the Corner IF/OF).

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  34. #34
    Doublethink
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    Is that the year he hit 3 consecutive homers on 3 swings?

  35. #35
    Doublethink
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    Craig Nettles WAR 67.9 Steve Garvey 38.1. Does that make him twice as good? That's what I don't understand about it.

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