[Doublethink]

https://www.baseball-reference.com/a...hof_2022.shtml
Who U got?
I still say Don Mattingly should be voted in. Equal numbers to Kirby Puckett career.
I will say it over and over but he will be continually denied because he played on bad Yankee teams and the writers will not accept that.

[JacketFan81]

Honestly I'm surprised Mattingly isn't in already

[Doublethink]

Somebody here knows an unrecognized great player. It's too bad his bad back halted his career but he is still equal to Puckett. But Kirby got a World Series title. Mattingly played in a Series payoff once. Playing on bad Yankee teams doesn't go well with the press writers.

[jjgold]

Mattingly no way and never hit in pressure

Teams never won

Ricky Henderson also was always on 3rd base inflating his stats

[Tanko]

The big question is does Bonds make it on his last year on the HOF ballot along with several others.

[MinnesotaFats]

Guys

When Kirbys career ended- cut short by a ball to the face, he had the 2nd highest career BA (.319) of any AL right handed batter, behind only Joe DiMaggio.

You cannot compare Kirby to Mattingly. Donnie baseball is a second teir player.

[Doublethink]

https://stathead.com/baseball/player...um=0&request=1

[209 Life]

Put the Giants legends in the HOF. Barry Bonds & Tim Lincecum

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Voter boycott has kept Schilling out. Joke that Schilling isn't in yet.

This could be a very thin year. No idea on the Veterans Committee. Anyone they're hot on?

Schilling IMHO will get in this year or next year. ARod and MannyRam won't as continued boycott of PED-connected players.

Two players that I'd HOPE the Vet Comm gets warm to: 1) Bobby Grich, 2) Lou Whitaker.

Grich, Whitaker, AND Schilling have very high WAR ratings. > 70 WAR for each, well above many players who are already in.

[Chi_archie]

Let Mattingly win a WS as manager and put him in.

he was good for a span, not great.

he had lower rapes over replacement value vs Puckett for sure, so that helps

Mattingly also has kept his weight under 300 and avoided fatal strokes due to hypertension and never lost his eyesight due to Glaucoma

I like his chances, going forward

[BuckyOne]

Stats


Career stats
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.541176)]

[COLOR=#70757A !important]Year [/COLOR]	[COLOR=#70757A !important]Team [/COLOR]	[COLOR=#70757A !important]GP [/COLOR]	[COLOR=#70757A !important]AB [/COLOR]	[COLOR=#70757A !important]R [/COLOR]	[COLOR=#70757A !important]H [/COLOR]	[COLOR=#70757A !important]RBI [/COLOR]	[COLOR=#70757A !important]BB [/COLOR]	[COLOR=#70757A !important]SO [/COLOR]	[COLOR=#70757A !important]HR [/COLOR]	[COLOR=#70757A !important]SB [/COLOR]
1995	Twins	137	538	83	169	99	56	89	23	3
1994	Twins	108	439	79	139	112	28	47	20	6
1993	Twins	156	622	89	184	89	47	93	22	8
1992	Twins	160	639	104	210	110	44	97	19	17
1991	Twins	152	611	92	195	89	31	78	15	11
1990	Twins	146	551	82	164	80	57	73	12	5
1989	Twins	159	635	75	215	85	41	59	9	11
1988	Twins	158	657	109	234	121	23	83	24	6
1987	Twins	157	624	96	207	99	32	91	28	12
1986	Twins	161	680	119	223	96	34	99	31	20
1985	Twins	161	691	80	199	74	41	87	4	21
1984	Twins	128	557	63	165	31	16	69	0	14
Career		1,783	7,244	1,071	2,304	1,085	450	965	207	134

[/COLOR]
Kirby Pucket
Stats


Career stats
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.541176)]

[COLOR=#70757A !important]Year [/COLOR]	[COLOR=#70757A !important]Team [/COLOR]	[COLOR=#70757A !important]GP [/COLOR]	[COLOR=#70757A !important]AB [/COLOR]	[COLOR=#70757A !important]R [/COLOR]	[COLOR=#70757A !important]H [/COLOR]	[COLOR=#70757A !important]RBI [/COLOR]	[COLOR=#70757A !important]BB [/COLOR]	[COLOR=#70757A !important]SO [/COLOR]	[COLOR=#70757A !important]HR [/COLOR]	[COLOR=#70757A !important]SB [/COLOR]
1995	Twins	137	538	83	169	99	56	89	23	3
1994	Twins	108	439	79	139	112	28	47	20	6
1993	Twins	156	622	89	184	89	47	93	22	8
1992	Twins	160	639	104	210	110	44	97	19	17
1991	Twins	152	611	92	195	89	31	78	15	11
1990	Twins	146	551	82	164	80	57	73	12	5
1989	Twins	159	635	75	215	85	41	59	9	11
1988	Twins	158	657	109	234	121	23	83	24	6
1987	Twins	157	624	96	207	99	32	91	28	12
1986	Twins	161	680	119	223	96	34	99	31	20
1985	Twins	161	691	80	199	74	41	87	4	21
1984	Twins	128	557	63	165	31	16	69	0	14
Career		1,783	7,244	1,071	2,304	1,085	450	965	207	134

[/COLOR]


Don Mattingly
Stats


Career stats
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.541176)]

[COLOR=#70757A !important]Year [/COLOR]	[COLOR=#70757A !important]Team [/COLOR]	[COLOR=#70757A !important]GP [/COLOR]	[COLOR=#70757A !important]AB [/COLOR]	[COLOR=#70757A !important]R [/COLOR]	[COLOR=#70757A !important]H [/COLOR]	[COLOR=#70757A !important]RBI [/COLOR]	[COLOR=#70757A !important]BB [/COLOR]	[COLOR=#70757A !important]SO [/COLOR]	[COLOR=#70757A !important]HR [/COLOR]	[COLOR=#70757A !important]SB [/COLOR]
1995	Yankees	128	458	59	132	49	40	35	7	0
1994	Yankees	97	372	62	113	51	60	24	6	0
1993	Yankees	134	530	78	154	86	61	42	17	0
1992	Yankees	157	640	89	184	86	39	43	14	3
1991	Yankees	152	587	64	169	68	46	42	9	2
1990	Yankees	102	394	40	101	42	28	20	5	1
1989	Yankees	158	631	79	191	113	51	30	23	3
1988	Yankees	144	599	94	186	88	41	29	18	1
1987	Yankees	141	569	93	186	115	51	38	30	1
1986	Yankees	162	677	117	238	113	53	35	31	0
1985	Yankees	159	652	107	211	145	56	41	35	2
1984	Yankees	153	603	91	207	110	41	33	23	1
1983	Yankees	91	279	34	79	32	21	31	4	0
1982	Yankees	7	12	0	2	1	0	1	0	0
Career		1,785	7,003	1,007	2,153	1,099	588	444	222	14

[/COLOR]
Web results

Who cares? HOF is disrespectful of the other players. Elected by idiot sportswriters who could never evaluate and compare talent as a manager. Absolutely, no clue about defensive abilities and can only read stats!

[gummo]

Big Papi is the only lock.

[TommieGunshot]

There are at least 50 players better than Mattingly who never made the Hall-of-Fame. Probably more like 100. Based on that, he is clearly not even close to being deserving.

[franklee168]

There can't be a Hall of Fame without the homerun leader in it. It would just be a building.

[Doublethink]

Guys

When Kirbys career ended- cut short by a ball to the face, he had the 2nd highest career BA (.319) of any AL right handed batter, behind only Joe DiMaggio.

You cannot compare Kirby to Mattingly. Donnie baseball is a second teir player.

You cannot compare Mattingly to Puckett? I just did. Not only did Mattingly win 9 GG he happened to be in NY at the same time as Keith Hernandez who won 11. Again making him not look so good. Kirby won 6 GG. Don Mattingly's career ended with a bad back.

[pavyracer]

Fred McGriff better stats than Mattingly and not in the HOF. You can't let everyone in. Then it is not special if everyome becomes a member.

[TommieGunshot]

You cannot compare Mattingly to Puckett? I just did. Not only did Mattingly win 9 GG he happened to be in NY at the same time as Keith Hernandez who won 11. Again making him not look so good. Kirby won 6 GG. Don Mattingly's career ended with a bad back.

Keith Hernandez was better defensively, better offensively, longer career, and did more in the postseason than Mattingly. Yet Hernandez is not in the Hall-of-Fame, never even above 10% of the vote of the sports writers. That makes it completely clear that Mattingly did not even come close to standards of the Hall-of-Fame and is clearly not deserving.

[Doublethink]

A brief analysis if the McGriff, Hernandez, Mattingly, Puckett HOF debate. McGriff 19 yrs. 2490 hits, fielding % .992, 8985 PO, 1775 DP, 1447 assists, 1349 runs scored, 10 post season Series. Hernandez, 16 yrs. 2182 hits, fielding % .994, 17909 PO, 1682 assists, 1124 runs scored,5 post season Series. Mattingly 13 yrs. 2153 hits, fielding % .996, 14148 PO, 1104 assists, 1 post season Series. With Mattingly and Puckett being equal in numbers as stated above, then McGriff and Hernandez are better and Puckett and Mattingly are equal. I don't know why McGriff gets shunned but Hernandez snorting up the first base line might be hurting him.

Correction McGriff 18985 PO. Also add McGriff played 2460 games at 1B started 159 of 174 at DH. Hernandez played 2014 at 1B and 7 in OF. Mattingly played 1634 games at 1B, 75 at DH, 76 OF, 3 at 3B and 1 at 2B as a lefty so 155 no 1B.

[Doublethink]

I always wondered why St. Louis got rid of Hernandez but ...
Snorting up the 1st base line could be part of the reason. Or the reason he was gone.

[TommieGunshot]

I don't know why McGriff gets shunned but Hernandez snorting up the first base line might be hurting him.

Like Mattingly, there are a lot of players better than McGriff not in the Hall-of-Fame, so it is easy to see why he didn't make it.

[Doublethink]

https://www.vintagedetroit.com/10-de...all-hall-fame/

[TommieGunshot]

https://www.vintagedetroit.com/10-de...all-hall-fame/

C Freehan and Tenace
1B Allen, Hernandez, McGwire and Palmerio
2B Grich, Kent and Whitaker
SS I guess Dahlen. Maybe Fregosi or Sewell if we are going with the past 100 years. Rodriguez will probably take over next month.
3B Darrell Evans, Nettles and Rolen
LF Bonds, Minoso and Ramirez
CF Edmonds, Andruw Jones and Reggie Smith
RF Dwight Evans and Sosa

I'm sure I missed some others. Mattingly doesn't come close and McGriff also falls short.

[DwightShrute]

The big question is does Bonds make it on his last year on the HOF ballot along with several others.

He should never be in the HOF. Same with Pete Rose.

[BuckyOne]

HOF is a bad joke. Election process is flawed. All this talk about stats is comparing apples to oranges. Defensive,running,throwing skills are way under valued!

Fans, owners, players, owners, managers are all biased.

Some kind of electoral board should pick.

Did the games count? Who cares if somebody was rude to a sportswriter or did not sign autographs?

[ChuckyTheGoat]

HOF is a bad joke. Election process is flawed. All this talk about stats is comparing apples to oranges. Defensive,running,throwing skills are way under valued!

Fans, owners, players, owners, managers are all biased.

Some kind of electoral board should pick.

Did the games count? Who cares if somebody was rude to a sportswriter or did not sign autographs?

Yes, Buck. Sometimes, the writers miss it by a mile. Look at some of the guys that don't even get5% vote.

Schilling non-admission is a joke. Why even have a vote? Schilling has one of the highest WARs and is not linked to PEDs/gambling.

2B/3B often get overlooked. Tough defensive positions. Solid two-way players like Grich/Whitaker/Nettles really should get a long look.

[Doublethink]

besides mentioned b4. Graig Nettles, nothing great. Dick Allen, controversial, rebellious. Dwight Evans, nothing special. Gene Tenace, nothing. Darrel Evans, shouldn't be in the conversation. Bill Freehan, Bobby Grich, NO. Lou Whitaker, Not even. Jeff Kent, possible. Scott Rolen, could be. Minnie Minoso, very borderline. Jim Edmonds, good numbers. Andrew Jones, maybe. Reggie smith, could be better. Dwight Evans, I don't think so. Vada Pinson, Al Oliver, looks good. Bill Buckner, possibly. Dave Parker, why not? Steve Garvey, looks good yes. Doc Cramer, good enough. Lane Cross, he should be in.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Double, go have another drink. You're off by a mile. Have another drink.

Garvey is one of only two 10x All-stars not in the HOF. Garvey had very strong wrists. But he wasn't a selective hitter, very low OBA.

Nettles was nothing special? Go watch the World Series high-lites, where he stole the show.

[Doublethink]

I said Garvey looks good. Nettles World Series high-lites don't get you in the HOF. 162 game avg. .248 134 hits 72 runs and 79 RBI. Not exactly HOF material.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Double, the Baseball HOF induction process is flawed. It starts w/ the writers being historically poor voters.

Secondly, the Veterans Committee is biased. The Baines induction via his GM/Mgr/Teammate was a joke and lowered the bar.

Baseball is a great game for Individual stat analysis. Garvey has a lot to like, but his low OBA (.329) isn't good enuf for a 1st baseman:
https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...arvest01.shtml

Nettles actually has a much higher WAR. Some of his statistics are similar to Garvey's. But he played a tougher defensive position, so his defensive contribution is much higher:
https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...ettlgr01.shtml

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Double, remember this play? Dodgers vs Yankees, pretty funny:

[Doublethink]

Of course I remember the play. Jackson luckily got away clean. But since we're talking Yanks I want to talk about Craig Nettles. I grew up a Yankee fan starting in the '60s. I really had no choice since my father was a die hard but OK I was in on it. He made some great plays and since I played 3rd base growing up he was fun to watch. I was a fan of him but he isn't a HOFr. When we were kids it was the guy's batting average, runs scored, RBI's and homers were what mattered. Today it is WAR. I really don't understand it but it is a highly used number. Can someone explain what the hell wins above replacement is about? It seems to make sense about numbers but I just don't get it.

[Doublethink]

I remember back in the day Sparky Anderson saying "Munson couldn't shine Bench's shoes."

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Double, it's a more Modern view on Baseball stats. WAR tries to cut thru the historical view on stats, where certain Stat biases exist.

WAR stands for Wins Above Replacement. So, WAR attempts to determine a player's true value to his team. How many extra wins does he contribute, vs a low-end Major Leaguer who might replace him.

I think WAR has gained a good bit of traction in the Sabermetric community. It's pretty clear that Batting Average is historically over-valued as a stand-alone stat. I go back to the "Moneyball" about getting on base. Ergo, On-Base % is a much better stat than BA.

I have come to give great regard to disciplined hitters who work the count and wear pitchers out. Olerud/EdgarMart on the Seattle teams come to mind.

Defense and Performance relative to position are important. I'll reference another guy from your list above, Dwight Evans. Sabermetricians view DEvans as an excellent player. He's a classic case of the undervalued player who is now more appreciated. Evans walked a lot, which pushed his OBA up. Could really bat him anywhere in the Top/Middle of the lineup. And his defense was very good. In particular, his throwing arm was excellent. Teams eventually didn't try to run on him.

See my Garvey vs Nettles comparison. Garvey MOSTLY played 1b, except for some early days at 3b. Nettles MOSTLY played 3b. Garvey and Nettles each won Gold Gloves.

But 3b is CLEARLY a tougher position, so IMHO he has to be the better player. Third-basemen are in pretty short supply in the HOF. Arguably, the one position that demands Defensive prowess and expects power production (from the Corner IF/OF).

[Doublethink]

Is that the year he hit 3 consecutive homers on 3 swings?

[Doublethink]

Craig Nettles WAR 67.9 Steve Garvey 38.1. Does that make him twice as good? That's what I don't understand about it.