Willie Mays RIP

[stevenash]

Veteran long-time sports talk host Steve Sommers says he became a Giants fan because of McCovey.

[str]

Where is Willie Mays?









It's tricky as he is in the smaller frame above, which I made into my greatest team in 1964. Surrounding that greatest team are all the Washington Senators. I know, I was a homer and a kid.

Across the middle is the best at every position. Starting with RH pitcher, Then LH pitcher, then catcher, around the horn ,Left, center, right.

How good was Mays? I put Mantle in left. Kind of says it all.

And how good was this team? I had Clemente, Killebrew and Arron on the bench waiting to get in. Lol. And maybe worse, McCovey didn't make it.

I'm a kid again, every time I see my guys.

Thank you Mr. Mays

[ChuckyTheGoat]

str, you're one Hell of a Guy. Very nice tribute.

Sounds crazy, but guys like Mays + Mantle let a kid dream big. The Great Ones are literally larger than life. Everyone has their favorite player.

I think Mantle + Mays are similar in that way. They did things that you just didn't think were possible.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

I'll ask you a Theoretical Q, str:

*If you're manager of the All Time team and you're setting your lineup, who is your Leadoff hitter?

It's a very open-ended question. I always felt like the Leadoff guys got less credit than the Power guys. From 1980 to present, three names come to mind.

[str]

I'll ask you a Theoretical Q, str:

*If you're manager of the All Time team and you're setting your lineup, who is your Leadoff hitter?

It's a very open-ended question. I always felt like the Leadoff guys got less credit than the Power guys. From 1980 to present, three names come to mind.

With the group I had from 1964 it would have been Rose. Might actually bat Mays 2nd with his ability on the bases, followed by Mantle, Arron, Banks , Yogi, Brooks, Aparicio and the pitcher. Of course, if there was a DH, one could have a field day with speed, power, heck anything you want. Fun to think about.

But from 1980 to present ? Hmmm? Hard to look past Ricky Henderson IMO. It was like, as soon as the anthem was over and everyone is taking their seats and they announce Ricky Henderson leading off, you get this sick feeling in your stomach. Lol.

There were some really GREAT leadoff guys. Rose, Ichiro, Biggio, Lofton, Boggs and how about Vince Coleman who could fly. Hate to not mention someone and probably forgetting a few because there were some real great leadoff guys.

What about you Chucky?

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Thx for the reply, str. This is one of those bar questions you ask. Just curious.

Your answer on Rose going back to 1964 is a good one. We can exclude Cobb for now because of the time-gap. CHARLIE HUSTLE was such a great nickname. Put him at the top of the order, and you know he's going to hit for Average and give it everything he's got.

Rickey Henderson is the obvious one. I really think he was (somehow) unheralded for a long time. I never understood how pitchers did not challenge him more. He had GOOD power, but you have to challenge him. Rickey worked pitchers so well. The .400 OBA + speed was so good.

You mentioned the 2nd guy that came to mind, Wade Boggs. After Ted Williams retired, I really think Boggs understood hitting better than any contemporary. He had the ability to hit to all fields, and he patiently drew Walks. I don't think there was a way to pitch him. He had more Power than people realized, he just thought he could be more effective as a BB/1B/2B guy.

Great story from Boggs as a guest on the Tim McCarver show. Still with the Red Sox, Boggs is playing a series against the Yankees. At the batting cage before Game Three, Yank SS Wayne Tolleson crosses paths with Wade. And Tolleson is not happy.

TOLLESON: "Are you watching me?"
BOGGS: "What do you mean?"
TOLLESON: "I play you up the middle, you hit it in the hole. I play in the hole, you hit it up the middle."
BOGGS: "You got it."

Boggs was that skilled. If you shade him up the middle, he could drop it into the vacated space. And if you play in the hole, he'll rip it up the middle. He was that good.

[stevenash]

Wade Boggs would call hitting a home run a "mistake"

[str]

If I went to an O's game with my son, I would always get there for BP. Almost rather watch that than the game. Lol.
When they played Boston, watching Boggs take BP was priceless. He would get in some normal type swings and hit a few to right field and right center and then he would work on hitting spots. I watched him hit 4-5 homeruns in a row at Camden yards but they were all about 3-5 rows up in left and left center.. What he was doing was hitting to the gaps but it was kind of short to Camden and all of those would have hit the wall at Fenway . They were gappers that just happened to carry in BP at Camden. He was working on just what you spoke about. Wherever the shortstop wasn't . It was surreal to watch. I think if you had picked a seat and have him try to try it in the 1st 3-4 rows of left center, he could have hit it. Stunning to watch how good he was.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

If I went to an O's game I always went for BP. Almost rather watch that than the game. Lol.
When they played Boston, watching Boggs take BP was priceless. He would get in some normal type swings and hit a few to right field and right center and then he would work on hitting spots. I watched him hit 4-5 homeruns in a row at Camden yards but they were all about 3-5 rows up in left and left center.. What he was doing was hitting to the gaps but it was kind of short to Camden and all of those would have hit the wall at Fenway . They were gappers that just happened to carry in BP at Camden. He was working on just what you spoke about. Wherever the shortstop wasn't . It was surreal to watch. I think if you had picked a seat and have him try to try it in the 1st 3-4 rows of left center, he could have hit it. Stunning to watch how good he was.

Exactly, str. Very good review.

I heard the same thing about Boggs in Batting Practice. When he WANTED to hit Home Runs, he could put on a show. Something in his mind said that he had no use for a Home Run swing.

His ability to hit to all fields was amazing. Peppering the Green Monster for doubles, opposite-field singles where the defense aint. His seven peak seasons with BOS stand out:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/boggswa01.shtml

...200+ Hits each year and 100+ BB almost every year.

[str]

[QUOTE=str;31318272]

Where is Orlando Cepeda ? Hint: He resides between two other hall of famers.

Dammit. Another one gone.

Rest In Peace sir.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Some of the HOFers are passing. Wanted to chime in again on Willie Mays.

Of course, everyone will have a slightly different view. Some say that he was the best to ever play the game. Are there any qualifiers to that statement?

*First delineation: let's talk about non-Pitchers. When I think of Willie, I think of the offense and the defense.

I can think of a few categories of Greatness:
*Ted Williams: greatest hitter of the L100 years.
*Hank Aaron: most consistently productive over 20+ years.
*Best Defensive player ever at a Key Position? I'd argue that Ozzie Smith is near the top of that list.

*Best combination of Offensive and Defensive prowess? Hard to think of any player that was near the top of BOTH lists.
...I'd argue that Paul Blair could match his defensive range in Center Field.
...Add in the offensive production. Mays has to be viewed as one of the Top 5 non-Pitchers on the L100 years.

[str]

[QUOTE=str;31320211]

Where is Orlando Cepeda ? Hint: He resides between two other hall of famers.

Dammit. Another one gone.

Rest In Peace sir.

Kind of weird but if you look at the 6th row down on the left hand frame, count 9 across and between Demeter and Hawk Harrelson , they made a card of Mays and Cepeda together. That was 1964. Sixty years later, we lose them both within a week.

[str]

Some of the HOFers are passing. Wanted to chime in again on Willie Mays.

Of course, everyone will have a slightly different view. Some say that he was the best to ever play the game. Are there any qualifiers to that statement?

*First delineation: let's talk about non-Pitchers. When I think of Willie, I think of the offense and the defense.

I can think of a few categories of Greatness:
*Ted Williams: greatest hitter of the L100 years.
*Hank Aaron: most consistently productive over 20+ years.
*Best Defensive player ever at a Key Position? I'd argue that Ozzie Smith is near the top of that list.

*Best combination of Offensive and Defensive prowess? Hard to think of any player that was near the top of BOTH lists.
...I'd argue that Paul Blair could match his defensive range in Center Field.
...Add in the offensive production. Mays has to be viewed as one of the Top 5 non-Pitchers on the L100 years.

Nice list. Want to give it a little thought and I will get back in here.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Nice list. Want to give it a little thought and I will get back in here.

Mantle might merit a category of his own. The offensive production over a ten-year period is almost unmatched. Dominated the league and won World Series.

People often talk about Mantle as "what could have been." So, 536 Home Runs and 7 World Series = under-achievement? As if to say that he would have hit 800 Home Runs and won 12 WS...if he had never taken a drink.

[str]

Mantle might merit a category of his own. The offensive production over a ten-year period is almost unmatched. Dominated the league and won World Series.

People often talk about Mantle as "what could have been." So, 536 Home Runs and 7 World Series = under-achievement? As if to say that he would have hit 800 Home Runs and won 12 WS...if he had never taken a drink.

Mantle's knees were a mess. Blowing out one knee as a rookie, he never had the speed he once did after that 1st year. And, they only got worse over time. The drinking was terrible, and while plenty of players did that , he really did it with the thought he would die in his 30's from cancer like his family members did.
I don't think it is close to fair to measure HR totals from back then. It was just too many different moving parts to compare. Kind of goes with the Mays HR count playing at home where he did. And with all that, the 10 year run of production you mention is incredible.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Mantle's knees were a mess. Blowing out one knee as a rookie, he never had the speed he once did after that 1st year. And, they only got worse over time. The drinking was terrible, and while plenty of players did that , he really did it with the thought he would die in his 30's from cancer like his family members did.
I don't think it is close to fair to measure HR totals from back then. It was just too many different moving parts to compare. Kind of goes with the Mays HR count playing at home where he did. And with all that, the 10 year run of production you mention is incredible.

Thx for the reply, str. I will construct my thoughts and write more detail later.

So much was written about Mantle. Bob Costas and Billy Crystal are from that time. They examined him closely.

If he left something on the table, OK. It always blew my mind that he was somehow regarded as a failure. I've watched a lot of sports and fully believe the word TALENT to be a curse.

How much could people build him up? Sure, the natural talent was amazing. You referenced the injuries, and there were many. Of course, he contributed to that. I just don't think it was fair.

[str]

Mantle might merit a category of his own. The offensive production over a ten-year period is almost unmatched. Dominated the league and won World Series.

People often talk about Mantle as "what could have been." So, 536 Home Runs and 7 World Series = under-achievement? As if to say that he would have hit 800 Home Runs and won 12 WS...if he had never taken a drink.

Mantle was convinced he would not make 40 years old. So I think people have to weigh the whole story, not just the numbers and multiply. I don't see how people say he could have done this or that.
800 HR and 12WS? No, IMO

[str]

Some of the HOFers are passing. Wanted to chime in again on Willie Mays.

Of course, everyone will have a slightly different view. Some say that he was the best to ever play the game. Are there any qualifiers to that statement?

*First delineation: let's talk about non-Pitchers. When I think of Willie, I think of the offense and the defense.

I can think of a few categories of Greatness:
*Ted Williams: greatest hitter of the L100 years.
*Hank Aaron: most consistently productive over 20+ years.
*Best Defensive player ever at a Key Position? I'd argue that Ozzie Smith is near the top of that list.

*Best combination of Offensive and Defensive prowess? Hard to think of any player that was near the top of BOTH lists.
...I'd argue that Paul Blair could match his defensive range in Center Field.
...Add in the offensive production. Mays has to be viewed as one of the Top 5 non-Pitchers on the L100 years.

These are always great for arguments sake. Let's face it. Anyone named in here was just incredible.

So many greats along the way, but I find myself going back to my youth more than is fair probably.

Hitter? Before my time : Ted Williams? Why not. How wrong can anyone be ?

Best Defense at a key position. Because they are so different, I will go around the horn.

Catcher: Johnny Bench / Ivan Rodriguez. I can't make up my mind.
1st : Keith Hernandez works for me.
2nd : Bill Mazeroski
3rd: Brooks/ Schmidt. Brooks as a kid but Mike Schmidt was unreal.
SS Ozzie works for me. Again, as a kid , Aparicio.
LF: As a kid, Yaz. Older, Bonds
CF: Mays but agree, Paul Blair was tremendous.
RF: Roberto Clemente


Offense AND defense ?

That will take more thought.

What do you think?

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Great list, str. When I look at it historically, I start with two lists.

First = the All Time Offensive WAR list:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_off_career.shtml

Look at the 24 faces at the top. Only three of the 24 cross over to the Top 100 in this Defensive list:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_def_career.shtml

The three are Mays, Wagner and Schmidt. Wagner is the only one that might line up comparably to Mays. And I can't say that I saw Wagner play.

According to my research only ten players lined up the Top 100 on Offensive WAR and also Top 100 on Defensive WAR. It's an exclusive group who can say they excelled in both areas. By anyone's opinion, they'd have to say that Willie was head of the class.