Vigorish...What do you pay?

[KVB]

Ok losing bettors, I could say you have a couple of advantages over us winners. Besides being able to learn from your mistakes (it’s the best way to learn), you are doing something every winner accepts as a part of life, losing some bets. I think it was Fran Tarkenton who said “winning was being unafraid to lose.”

But here’s one you may not have thought of: losing bettors pay less commissions than the winners.

If two bettors bet each other $110 on a game, the winner walks away with all $220: a free bet for everyone. If the players take their action to a bookmaker, at -110 pricing, the $220 they put in only returns $210 to the winner ($100 plus his original $110). The bookmaker withholds $10, or 4.55% of the total handle from the winner’s pay. The winner paid the vigorish, the loser played for free.

But the winner, who would have been paid $110 without the bookmaker’s service, was only paid $100. He paid about 9.09% commission.

Now, out of 100 bets, if you won 0 of them, you would pay no commission whatsoever. Likewise, if you were to win all 100 of those bets at -110 pricing, you would be paying some 9.09%. If the -110 point spread bet is a 50-50 proposition, then the average 50-50 better would pay about 4.55% of his total action (that’s over 9% on the winners and nothing on the losers).

So, at -110, if you win 45% of your bets, you paid about 4.09% commission, while the grinder who hit 55% of his bets ends up paying 5.00%.

Be thankful for -105 and such pricing.

For the forum, if the point spread is a 50-50 proposition, and each individual play has a price of -110, then, as percentage to two decimals, how much vigorish is the bookie keeping on a two pick parley that pays +260. Why do you think shops these days offer +265?

[STAX]

cool story bro

[KVB]

For the forum, if the point spread is a 50-50 proposition, and each individual play has a price of -110, then, as percentage to two decimals, how much vigorish is the bookie keeping on a two pick parley that pays +260. Why do you think shops these days offer +265?

So no one’s going to take a crack at calculating the vigorish?

I can recognize that not everybody here is or wants to become a math whiz to learn to win. I can see where the entertainment value gets diminished when it becomes such work.

Understand, though, that the sports betting marketplace operates as a 3 way street, if you will. There’s the oddsmaker, the bookmaker, and the bettor.

Many of you know you will not be an oddsmaker, or even understand how the hell they do it; you call yourself square, instead of sharp. Fine, but that’s only one third of the picture.

By understanding what the bettor is doing and understanding how the bookmaker operates, and using that info (no matter how common it may be) in unique ways, you can be well on your way to your own kind of sharp.

A sharp that feels real good when you’re watching at the bar with buddies.

The question above is meant to touch some very basic principles of what the bookmaker is doing; it’s not a difficult math question…even though it’s not as simple as looks, concept wise.

Can anyone out there calculate vigorish on a parley? Would anyone like to try? Does anyone want insight into the three streets of betting? I would think, recreational bettor or not, one would want to give himself the best opportunity to win any given bet.

Understanding the business of the bookmaker will help you do that. Let’s share some ideas.

[vividjohn45]

I bet cubs ml and cubs u7 today. Both straight bets. I rarely parlay. So i dont really care how vigirish on parlays is calculated.

[vividjohn45]

I had chelsea this afternoon. Ml. And im gonnna small play . Phillies cuz plus 150 at home is to high of price. Thats how i see it.

[KVB]

I thought the parlay part of the question might scare some off. But this question is far less about parlays and much more about being able to calculate commission, or vigorish. The knowledge extends much further than parlays to the understanding the bookmaker’s perspective. Knowing his game can only help a bettor and understanding your costs can only help to increase your bottom line.

Good Luck on those bets.

[KVB]

Time and time again bettors, professional and amateur alike, get this wrong.

For all those who think there is no juice paid on winning bets, you couldn’t be more wrong and this thread bump is for you.

On the other note…does anyone want to take a crack at the vigorish of a two pick parley in the question above? It wasn’t answered in this thread and I saw it answered incorrectly back in August in another thread. Anyone?

Here’s to a few more winners and a few less losers for all of us.

[milwaukee mike]

there are plenty of people that think the winners pay all the juice, plenty of others that think losers pay it, and still more that think the juice is split.

all a matter of perception

if you think a 110-100 is a $100 bet then you think the loser pays the juice. if you think it is a $110 bet then you think the winner pays the juice.

i think it's shared, both sides pay it. none of the choices are "wrong", it's a matter of perception.

and the juice on a 13-5 parlay is 10% - you get 360 back for every 400 bet.

[jjgold]

Its why people that play at Matchbook and Betfair have a tremendous advantage over everyone else

nobody can beat -110..Matchbook has plenty 2 cent lines and -103

[KVB]

Not so much a matter of perception Mike as it may be of semantics.

A person who made a $110 bet to win $100 made a $110 bet. Period. If a person thinks a $110 bet is a $100 bet, he or she should count his or her money again.

Look at my example of two bettors in the original post. Just considering a $110 down to be only a $100 bet does not shift the burden of vigorish to the loser.

There are times when one could think of $110 bet to be a $100 bet with juice to make certain gambling concepts easier to understand, but that does not apply here.

Make no mistake; the bookmaker you are using knows who’s paying the vigorish. And to go in-line with what you are saying about perception, I will admit this post is about the bookmaker’s perspective.

It’s hard enough to win over the long haul and understanding the mechanics of bookmaking can help a bettor immensely.

I used to ride JJ Gold for not flat betting. Every bet on his spreadsheet is to win $100. Many argued that he was flat betting and is the most consistent poster there is. True, he is consistent but the risk column, not the “to win” column is what is important here. When he lays $150 to win $100 on a baseball money line, did he merely make a $100 bet? I don’t think so.

I’ve posted this before…by allowing different prices to influence your bet size you are in essence allowing your risk to fluctuate. This can not only change your breakeven point, but the books love it. Keeping your bets flat will then force the bookie’s risk to jump around while your risk remains stable. That’s good money management and why winning bettors often fluster the inexperienced bookies.

[KVB]

For the forum, if the point spread is a 50-50 proposition, and each individual play has a price of -110, then, as percentage to two decimals, how much vigorish is the bookie keeping on a two pick parley that pays +260. Why do you think shops these days offer +265?

Mike says the juice on the above two pick parley paying is 10%. Saying the books keep $40 for every $400 bet: a very fair answer. Anyone have any other answers, or does Mike have it?

I’ve seen many experienced professional bettors get this one wrong.

Here’s a hint, if the bookmakers were making 10% on a two pick parley, don’t you think they’d be advertising these parleys with giant signs hanging out the door? Think of it from the bookmaker’s perspective to determine the actual vigorish being collected here.

Anyone else have an answer?

[Matches Malone]

So no one’s going to take a crack at calculating the vigorish?

I can recognize that not everybody here is or wants to become a math whiz to learn to win. I can see where the entertainment value gets diminished when it becomes such work.

Understand, though, that the sports betting marketplace operates as a 3 way street, if you will. There’s the oddsmaker, the bookmaker, and the bettor.

Many of you know you will not be an oddsmaker, or even understand how the hell they do it; you call yourself square, instead of sharp. Fine, but that’s only one third of the picture.

By understanding what the bettor is doing and understanding how the bookmaker operates, and using that info (no matter how common it may be) in unique ways, you can be well on your way to your own kind of sharp.

A sharp that feels real good when you’re watching at the bar with buddies.

The question above is meant to touch some very basic principles of what the bookmaker is doing; it’s not a difficult math question…even though it’s not as simple as looks, concept wise.

Can anyone out there calculate vigorish on a parley? Would anyone like to try? Does anyone want insight into the three streets of betting? I would think, recreational bettor or not, one would want to give himself the best opportunity to win any given bet.

Understanding the business of the bookmaker will help you do that. Let’s share some ideas.

Too good to pass up.

[KVB]

I thought posters would like that analogy. It's useful when explaining some of these concepts, if you will.

[Smoke]

I call it juice bro

[KVB]

I call it juice bro

Sup smoke...I've called many a high priced shady book "juice extractors" myself. It's why winning bettors recommend shopping for the best prices at multiple outs...because the winners pay the juice and the losers just lose their bet.

So, how much juice does Mr. Bookie extract from the 2-pick parley above?

[Sam Odom]

No Juice Payer2Player betting is the only way to go... Sammy has 6 bets today with players (names withheld)

[KVB]

Sammy finding the best prices in town!

[BriGuy]

Many of you know you will not be an oddsmaker, or even understand how the hell they do it;

I once tried to put $2,800 (to win $2,000) on a baseball game and the teller called his manager then told me they would only accept half that amount and as soon as I placed the bet, the money line shifted by 10 points. Does that count?

[warbux]

No Juice Payer2Player betting is the only way to go... Sammy has 6 bets today with players (names withheld)

This is dangerous sammy, if you arn't a big tough guy with address and family names your gonna get a lot of stiffs.

[KVB]

I once tried to put $2,800 (to win $2,000) on a baseball game and the teller called his manager then told me they would only accept half that amount and as soon as I placed the bet, the money line shifted by 10 points. Does that count?

Well, do you know how they came up with the original price, and do you know why they limited your bet and then changed the price?

If not, that betting experience alone should have shown you some things. If so, then you needn’t ask if that counts.

Coming up with the price is the work of the oddsmaker, the other actions… the work of the bookmaker.

Often, the better the oddsmaker, the easier it becomes for the bookmaker. Note oddsmakers and bookies can be the same guy, group, or casino. But it didn’t used to be that way. Most follow someone else’s opener, and make book from there.

I find more winners and fewer losers when I not only determine my own price or line and compare it to the market, but also understand how the market arrived at its current price and how it opened where it did.

It’s a good post, a good example to readers about bookies eyeing their risk.

[jjgold]

I like betting -110 because the math is easy

[snapperman2]

For the forum, if the point spread is a 50-50 proposition, and each individual play has a price of -110, then, as percentage to two decimals, how much vigorish is the bookie keeping on a two pick parley that pays +260. Why do you think shops these days offer +265?

The bookie is keeping 13.33% vigorish. He keeps $40 out of the $300 he should be paying the customer.

[Sam Odom]

I like betting -110 because the math is easy

[jjgold]

Sammy??

If you go 4-2 its easy at -110 to calculate

400 in wins
220 in loses

Sammy +180 Profit

Sammy not that easy at -107 or some other odd figure

Sammy I will await your response

[Sam Odom]

JJ , you are correct

[KVB]

The Answer...

Like Mike says, there are 4 different outcomes with a two pick parley. (W-W, W-L, L-W, L-L) The bookie takes in $400 and pays out $360. The $40 dollars he keeps is indeed 10% of the $400 he originally took in.

But wait…

Let’s take a closer look at the parlay. The parlay isn’t a single bet; rather it is multiple bets (in this case two) parlayed together. That’s why it’s called a parlay.

When you place a $100 two pick, you are betting $100 on the outcome of one game, and then risking your winnings plus your original $100 on the outcome of the next game.

In reality, the four bettors in our calculation above, (the original $400 bet) did not bet merely $400. Two of those bettors were going to lose their first game…one would win his second game, the other lose his both games. But the other two of those bettors won the first bet, then let it ride (winnings plus original bet) on game 2. And one of those lucky bettors wins both games.

At -110 for each bet, the bookmaker took in $400 on game one and an additional $382 on game 2. The $40 the bookmaker keeps from $782 bet is equal to roughly 5.12% juice.

The juice on a two pick parley paying +260 is 5.12%. That’s slightly more than the average 4.55% on the 50-50 proposition.

In the same way, you can calculate a 3 pick paying 6-1 to be charging 4.35% vigorish…a slight bargain over 4.55%.

If I make and win a $100 bet at -110, odds, I will get back $191. If I then bet $191 at -110 on a second game, the return will be pennies shy of $365. And that’s why so many books these days will tolerate +265 odds on the two pick payout.

[jjgold]

Thanks Sammy

KV some good material here

JJ , you are correct

[KVB]

Thanks JJ. When I post, I usually try to make it helpful.

It’s true enough that many gamblers don’t really know much about gambling.

What’s even more true is how much gamblers do know that is just plain wrong; gambling myths are pervasive.

That’s really no big deal, a little education will surely bring all of us more winners and less losers or simply a bit more profit or even less of a loss through management and discipline.

The problem is that is isn’t in us gamblers’, nature and psychology to be willing to learn. Most bettors swing their picks around like it’s their dick size. Ego gets in the way.

[stevenash]

^
Would you like to know how parlaying two money line favorites in baseball can be advantageous?

[KVB]

I think anytime you can reduce your risk and increase your reward, in any market, it is advantageous. The key is to bet the same on the parley as you do a normal bet. Thinking about the “to-win” column instead the more important “at risk” column, many bettors bet less on parleys than single bets. This is a mistake and a poor use of parlays.

The other key is to try to go 2-0 or 0-2 in a two pick. If you are 1-1 then, of course, the parley hurts you.

What did you have in mind Mr. Nash.

Oh, and how do you feel about the Lakers possibly selling your contract? Hehehehe

Seriously though, what about that baseball two pick?

[jjgold]

Kvb are you a winning gambler?

[KVB]

Yes JJ.

Read some of my posts… they come from the winner’s side of the fence. From psychology to markets, from math to discipline, I have a wealth of experience here and am starting to convey it.

I plan to repost some of my earlier discussions for more discussion on them. I want to hear from more posters.

I don’t know everything, and some posters know more than me in some areas, without a doubt. I think no matter the type of bettor you are I believe I can convey insights that can help any bettor, as I keep saying… pick up a few more winners or a few less losers.

I know many posters who just look for winners to be posted, no problem here with that. But I think the give a man a fish vs. teach a man to fish saying applies here.

Look at the question in this post. It wouldn’t surprise me if even some of the most experienced and seasoned winning gamblers that don’t post much here probably learned something from it. Very few people understand the game they are playing, even the successful ones. We can all learn more.

Please check some of my past posts, tell me what you think.

As far as me being a winning gambler is concerned…you’ve heard the saying “never gamble with the rent money.”

Financially, it’s best for me to never pay bills with the gambling money.

In almost all cases, I treat gambling as a business.

[CappinTerp]

KVB some really interesting stuff...good job. I have been betting for a long time and learned the hard way by correcting my mistakes. I like to take risk but am risk adverse, will not lay more than -135 on anything and even at that price it's rare and I cringe. A question for you...math/risk. You talk about 2 team parlay, I never do them I would rather do a 2 team reverse. At 11-10 odds on both games what is the vig.?? Years ago I remember books took them but were not happy I was doing them.? Is there a lesson to be learned here??

[stevenash]

I think anytime you can reduce your risk and increase your reward, in any market, it is advantageous. The key is to bet the same on the parley as you do a normal bet. Thinking about the “to-win” column instead the more important “at risk” column, many bettors bet less on parleys than single bets. This is a mistake and a poor use of parlays.

The other key is to try to go 2-0 or 0-2 in a two pick. If you are 1-1 then, of course, the parley hurts you.

What did you have in mind Mr. Nash.

Oh, and how do you feel about the Lakers possibly selling your contract? Hehehehe

Seriously though, what about that baseball two pick?

You pretty much surrounded it without getting into the fine print.
Yeah, if you go 1 and 1 on a 100 dollar parlay, you are out, (naturally 100), if you bet two, let's say -160 faves, and go 1 and 1, you collect the 100 for the winner, lose 160 on the loser for a 60 dollar loss. Which is not as bad as 100, but in the long run you do cut into the books edge betting the two chalks you like on a parlay then individually betting them 1 and 1.

I like the books that offer open ended parlays, close them when you want, not when the books say you can close them (same day)

[Big Bear]

where that gif with the dude dancing that says "i didnt read" lol

i opened thread and post made my eyes hurt