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  • MonkeyF0cker
    SBR Posting Legend
    • 06-12-07
    • 12144

    #36
    Originally posted by big0mar
    I do not agree.
    Great. You make a great counterpoint.
    Comment
    • big0mar
      SBR MVP
      • 01-09-09
      • 3374

      #37
      Originally posted by MonkeyF0cker
      Not following. You said it's time consuming. I'm saying that I can automate the vast majority of it. My time is apparently worth more than yours.
      Yes, and I'm saying that it takes you time to automate it.

      Originally posted by MonkeyF0cker
      Can't afford a laptop? I'm confused. There are wireless Internet providers.
      Certainly I can't pull out a laptop while I'm in a club in Vegas or sitting at the pool. The point here is that not everyone has the time to sit in their basement scraping data, interpreting data, or analyzing data. The same way Steve Jobs wasn't programming code for Apple.

      Originally posted by MonkeyF0cker
      And what do you do in the opposite situation after you've invested 6 months with your "partner's" data? Why are you assuming that the integrity of the data is any better? What's to say it's not worse with a partner?
      Then you blame yourself for going in with a poor partner. Just like any business blames itself if it hires a bad CFO, etc. By all means I'm not saying someone should get in business with just anybody.
      [B][B]They key isn't getting rich quick. The key is getting rich slowly, and enjoying it.

      [/B][/B][SIZE=1][URL="http://forum.sbrforum.com/sbr-points/490161-points-available-loan.html#post4633361"][/URL][/SIZE]
      Comment
      • MonkeyF0cker
        SBR Posting Legend
        • 06-12-07
        • 12144

        #38
        Originally posted by big0mar
        Just as an example of how brain power can help scale your operation, I knew a gentleman that would follow the PGA around. He would chart practice rounds and range balls for particular players. Over time as the data accumulated, it became very valuable. Now certainly anyone is capable of walking around a golf course and charting data, but it would not be cost-beneficial.
        So, you're saying that you'd make him a partner because of PRACTICE round data? Weird.

        How accurate is his data? Oh. You can't verify it anyway? Ok then.
        Comment
        • big0mar
          SBR MVP
          • 01-09-09
          • 3374

          #39
          Originally posted by MonkeyF0cker
          So, you're saying that you'd make him a partner because of PRACTICE round data? Weird.

          How accurate is his data? Oh. You can't verify it anyway? Ok then.
          There are varying degrees of "partner".

          In regards to that example, I'm not sure how accurate his data was, because I never dealt with him directly.

          I will say that I once partnered with someone that had a game charter for basketball. The accuracy of that data could be easily verified.
          [B][B]They key isn't getting rich quick. The key is getting rich slowly, and enjoying it.

          [/B][/B][SIZE=1][URL="http://forum.sbrforum.com/sbr-points/490161-points-available-loan.html#post4633361"][/URL][/SIZE]
          Comment
          • MonkeyF0cker
            SBR Posting Legend
            • 06-12-07
            • 12144

            #40
            Originally posted by big0mar
            Yes, and I'm saying that it takes you time to automate it.
            Uh. I think you're missing something here. It SAVES a ton of time over the long haul.

            Certainly I can't pull out a laptop while I'm in a club in Vegas or sitting at the pool. The point here is that not everyone has the time to sit in their basement scraping data, interpreting data, or analyzing data. The same way Steve Jobs wasn't programming code for Apple.
            What could you possibly be betting at a club here? I've brought my laptop to the pool. How are you doing ANYTHING quantitative with an iPhone to begin with? You're speaking nonsense.

            Then you blame yourself for going in with a poor partner. Just like any business blames itself if it hires a bad CFO, etc. By all means I'm not saying someone should get in business with just anybody.
            So that's it? You've wasted 6 months and you're just going to scrap the project because the data is poor? And you're questioning how much MY time is worth? Huh?
            Comment
            • MonkeyF0cker
              SBR Posting Legend
              • 06-12-07
              • 12144

              #41
              Originally posted by big0mar
              There are varying degrees of "partner".

              In regards to that example, I'm not sure how accurate his data was, because I never dealt with him directly.

              I will say that I once partnered with someone that had a game charter for basketball. The accuracy of that data could be easily verified.
              How could it be easily verified unless it were easily obtained in the first place?
              Comment
              • big0mar
                SBR MVP
                • 01-09-09
                • 3374

                #42
                Originally posted by MonkeyF0cker
                Uh. I think you're missing something here. It SAVES a ton of time over the long haul.
                Did I ever argue against automation? I simply suggested that its potentially more efficient for someone else to do it.

                Originally posted by MonkeyF0cker
                What could you possibly be betting at a club here? I've brought my laptop to the pool. How are you doing ANYTHING quantitative with an iPhone to begin with? You're speaking nonsense.
                So you're saying that you never leave your laptop? If you're in the grocery store and have a chance to scalp a Croatian soccer match, do you pull out your laptop in aisle 5?

                Originally posted by MonkeyF0cker
                So that's it? You've wasted 6 months and you're just going to scrap the project because the data is poor? And you're questioning how much MY time is worth? Huh?
                If one goes into business with someone that provides poor data, they are doomed.
                [B][B]They key isn't getting rich quick. The key is getting rich slowly, and enjoying it.

                [/B][/B][SIZE=1][URL="http://forum.sbrforum.com/sbr-points/490161-points-available-loan.html#post4633361"][/URL][/SIZE]
                Comment
                • big0mar
                  SBR MVP
                  • 01-09-09
                  • 3374

                  #43
                  Originally posted by MonkeyF0cker
                  How could it be easily verified unless it were easily obtained in the first place?
                  Charting basketball is very easy. Look at where the player shot and write it down. Extremely time consuming when you consider how many games are played however.
                  [B][B]They key isn't getting rich quick. The key is getting rich slowly, and enjoying it.

                  [/B][/B][SIZE=1][URL="http://forum.sbrforum.com/sbr-points/490161-points-available-loan.html#post4633361"][/URL][/SIZE]
                  Comment
                  • mathdotcom
                    SBR Posting Legend
                    • 03-24-08
                    • 11689

                    #44
                    big0mar has the best avatar on sbr

                    i will say that
                    Comment
                    • MonkeyF0cker
                      SBR Posting Legend
                      • 06-12-07
                      • 12144

                      #45
                      Originally posted by big0mar
                      Did I ever argue against automation? I simply suggested that its potentially more efficient for someone else to do it.
                      How?

                      So you're saying that you never leave your laptop? If you're in the grocery store and have a chance to scalp a Croatian soccer match, do you pull out your laptop in aisle 5?
                      And you're CONSTANTLY monitoring lines on your iPhone in aisle 5? Please. Can you code a program to alert you to possible scalps on your iPhone? Didn't think so.

                      If one goes into business with someone that provides poor data, they are doomed.
                      Are you TRYING to help me make points here? You aren't going to know unless you verify it. If you can verify it, you can obtain it just as easily. Strange circle isn't it?
                      Comment
                      • MonkeyF0cker
                        SBR Posting Legend
                        • 06-12-07
                        • 12144

                        #46
                        Originally posted by big0mar
                        Charting basketball is very easy. Look at where the player shot and write it down. Extremely time consuming when you consider how many games are played however.
                        And you're verifying it how?
                        Comment
                        • big0mar
                          SBR MVP
                          • 01-09-09
                          • 3374

                          #47
                          Originally posted by MonkeyF0cker
                          How?
                          Because they can do it faster, and thus cheaper than me.


                          Originally posted by MonkeyF0cker
                          And you're CONSTANTLY monitoring lines on your iPhone in aisle 5? Please. Can you code a program to alert you to possible scalps on your iPhone? Didn't think so.
                          Absolutely. But there are people that can do it a hell of a lot more efficiently than me.

                          Originally posted by MonkeyF0cker
                          Are you TRYING to help me make points here? You aren't going to know unless you verify it. If you can verify it, you can obtain it just as easily. Strange circle isn't it?
                          No, because the sample size required to verify accuracy isn't the entire set of data. If someone is charting 150k plays, you don't need to look at 150k plays to verify their accuracy.
                          [B][B]They key isn't getting rich quick. The key is getting rich slowly, and enjoying it.

                          [/B][/B][SIZE=1][URL="http://forum.sbrforum.com/sbr-points/490161-points-available-loan.html#post4633361"][/URL][/SIZE]
                          Comment
                          • big0mar
                            SBR MVP
                            • 01-09-09
                            • 3374

                            #48
                            Originally posted by MonkeyF0cker
                            And you're verifying it how?
                            In this case, they would have a random sample selected and graded.
                            [B][B]They key isn't getting rich quick. The key is getting rich slowly, and enjoying it.

                            [/B][/B][SIZE=1][URL="http://forum.sbrforum.com/sbr-points/490161-points-available-loan.html#post4633361"][/URL][/SIZE]
                            Comment
                            • big0mar
                              SBR MVP
                              • 01-09-09
                              • 3374

                              #49
                              Originally posted by mathdotcom
                              big0mar has the best avatar on sbr

                              i will say that
                              [B][B]They key isn't getting rich quick. The key is getting rich slowly, and enjoying it.

                              [/B][/B][SIZE=1][URL="http://forum.sbrforum.com/sbr-points/490161-points-available-loan.html#post4633361"][/URL][/SIZE]
                              Comment
                              • mathdotcom
                                SBR Posting Legend
                                • 03-24-08
                                • 11689

                                #50
                                Monkey write me a program that has a hot eastern European broad for a voice that talks dirty to me when I turn on my computer, and talks up my bets after I make them. Kind of like "Good evening big boy, wow, 10 grand on the Pirates... you are such a big timer..."

                                Gimme a quote and let's get this done
                                Comment
                                • MonkeyF0cker
                                  SBR Posting Legend
                                  • 06-12-07
                                  • 12144

                                  #51
                                  Originally posted by big0mar
                                  Because they can do it faster, and thus cheaper than me.
                                  Who can? Can they do it faster than me? I know what needs to be done. I don't have to explain it to anyone. I don't have the fear of it not working like I want it to. I know how to quickly fix it if it doesn't. How is your way more efficient again?

                                  Absolutely. But there are people that can do it a hell of a lot more efficiently than me.
                                  People can scalp Croatian soccer more efficiently than you in aisle 5? Or people can more efficiently (are we talking about the efficiency of the code or the time taken to write it?) code a program to alert you to a possible scalp? It's not difficult. Just because YOU can't code doesn't mean that OTHERS can't. It does NOT necessitate a group. Why do you guys CONSISTENTLY project on other people?

                                  No, because the sample size required to verify accuracy isn't the entire set of data. If someone is charting 150k plays, you don't need to look at 150k plays to verify their accuracy.
                                  How are you verifying it? Writing it down off of a web page and looking it up? That's efficient? How many plays are you verifying in a 150k set?
                                  Comment
                                  • MonkeyF0cker
                                    SBR Posting Legend
                                    • 06-12-07
                                    • 12144

                                    #52
                                    Originally posted by big0mar
                                    In this case, they would have a random sample selected and graded.
                                    And you have access to ALL of the tapes of the games, you randomly select the (plays, games, what?), load the game (VHS, DVD, video file?), scan to that particular play, write it down, and compare? How many times are you doing this?

                                    Do you realize that there are shot charts on the web that I can pull within a second?
                                    Comment
                                    • big0mar
                                      SBR MVP
                                      • 01-09-09
                                      • 3374

                                      #53
                                      Originally posted by MonkeyF0cker
                                      Who can? Can they do it faster than me? I know what needs to be done. I don't have to explain it to anyone. I don't have the fear of it not working like I want it to. I know how to quickly fix it if it doesn't. How is your way more efficient again?
                                      Because my time is better served doing other things.

                                      Originally posted by MonkeyF0cker
                                      People can scalp Croatian soccer more efficiently than you in aisle 5? Or people can more efficiently (are we talking about the efficiency of the code or the time taken to write it?) code a program to alert you to a possible scalp? It's not difficult. Just because YOU can't code doesn't mean that OTHERS can't. It does NOT necessitate a group. Why do you guys CONSISTENTLY project on other people?
                                      I certainly can code. I can also clean a toilet. Surely its not worth my time though.

                                      Originally posted by MonkeyF0cker
                                      How are you verifying it? Writing it down off of a web page and looking it up? That's efficient? How many plays are you verifying in a 150k set?
                                      It was verified by watching the tape and charting the shots. As I said before, it wasn't under my purview. But there were algorithms developed for determining accuracy of the charters.
                                      [B][B]They key isn't getting rich quick. The key is getting rich slowly, and enjoying it.

                                      [/B][/B][SIZE=1][URL="http://forum.sbrforum.com/sbr-points/490161-points-available-loan.html#post4633361"][/URL][/SIZE]
                                      Comment
                                      • big0mar
                                        SBR MVP
                                        • 01-09-09
                                        • 3374

                                        #54
                                        Originally posted by MonkeyF0cker
                                        And you have access to ALL of the tapes of the games, you randomly select the (plays, games, what?), load the game (VHS, DVD, video file?), scan to that particular play, write it down, and compare? How many times are you doing this?
                                        Every play from every game was cataloged. Not hard to pull up particular plays on demand.

                                        Originally posted by MonkeyF0cker
                                        Do you realize that there are shot charts on the web that I can pull within a second?
                                        Please share those shot charts and I'd be glad to let you know what they are missing. I think everyone here would agree that anything that can be just pulled from the web isn't going to give you much of an edge.
                                        [B][B]They key isn't getting rich quick. The key is getting rich slowly, and enjoying it.

                                        [/B][/B][SIZE=1][URL="http://forum.sbrforum.com/sbr-points/490161-points-available-loan.html#post4633361"][/URL][/SIZE]
                                        Comment
                                        • big0mar
                                          SBR MVP
                                          • 01-09-09
                                          • 3374

                                          #55
                                          And to be clear, I'm not saying that if you're not part of a large group, you can't win. Anyone smart enough can win on their own. But there also is great value is being a part of a group that has division of labor.

                                          Also, before getting involved in any type of partnership, one needs to evaluate the cost of capital and decide what is best for them.
                                          [B][B]They key isn't getting rich quick. The key is getting rich slowly, and enjoying it.

                                          [/B][/B][SIZE=1][URL="http://forum.sbrforum.com/sbr-points/490161-points-available-loan.html#post4633361"][/URL][/SIZE]
                                          Comment
                                          • MonkeyF0cker
                                            SBR Posting Legend
                                            • 06-12-07
                                            • 12144

                                            #56
                                            Originally posted by big0mar
                                            Because my time is better served doing other things.
                                            It is done once and it's over. Not sure what you fail to comprehend. I can code it faster than finding someone else to do it, explain to them exactly how I want it, and test it later.

                                            I certainly can code. I can also clean a toilet. Surely its not worth my time though.
                                            What IS worth your time? I'm sure you live quite the life.


                                            It was verified by watching the tape and charting the shots. As I said before, it wasn't under my purview. But there were algorithms developed for determining accuracy of the charters.
                                            Algorithms developed for video? Come on. Let's get real.
                                            Comment
                                            • big0mar
                                              SBR MVP
                                              • 01-09-09
                                              • 3374

                                              #57
                                              Originally posted by MonkeyF0cker
                                              It is done once and it's over. Not sure what you fail to comprehend. I can code it faster than finding someone else to do it, explain to them exactly how I want it, and test it later.
                                              No, not in every case. There is always new information that can be gathered from new and different sources.

                                              Originally posted by MonkeyF0cker
                                              What IS worth your time? I'm sure you live quite the life.
                                              Evaluating talent and putting that talent in place. Also, finance, programming, and sports.

                                              Originally posted by MonkeyF0cker
                                              Algorithms developed for video? Come on. Let's get real.
                                              Algorithms developed for determining accuracy. A charter that historically has a 99% rate of accuracy wouldn't be graded the same way someone with a 95% rate of accuracy would be.
                                              [B][B]They key isn't getting rich quick. The key is getting rich slowly, and enjoying it.

                                              [/B][/B][SIZE=1][URL="http://forum.sbrforum.com/sbr-points/490161-points-available-loan.html#post4633361"][/URL][/SIZE]
                                              Comment
                                              • MonkeyF0cker
                                                SBR Posting Legend
                                                • 06-12-07
                                                • 12144

                                                #58
                                                Originally posted by big0mar
                                                Every play from every game was cataloged. Not hard to pull up particular plays on demand.
                                                LOL. Sure. How many gigs of data is that?

                                                Please share those shot charts and I'd be glad to let you know what they are missing. I think everyone here would agree that anything that can be just pulled from the web isn't going to give you much of an edge.
                                                LOL. What an absurd post. Didn't realize that I was speaking with one of THOSE guys. This conversation can't continue. You have no idea what you're talking about.
                                                Comment
                                                • big0mar
                                                  SBR MVP
                                                  • 01-09-09
                                                  • 3374

                                                  #59
                                                  Originally posted by MonkeyF0cker
                                                  LOL. Sure. How many gigs of data is that?
                                                  It was a lot. In the end maintenance of data became an issue.

                                                  Originally posted by MonkeyF0cker
                                                  LOL. What an absurd post. Didn't realize that I was speaking with one of THOSE guys. This conversation can't continue. You have no idea what you're talking about.
                                                  Not sure what this means??? I'm just curious as to what data you're referring to. I find a lot of basketball charting, but none that provides everything I would look for. What exactly was absurd?
                                                  [B][B]They key isn't getting rich quick. The key is getting rich slowly, and enjoying it.

                                                  [/B][/B][SIZE=1][URL="http://forum.sbrforum.com/sbr-points/490161-points-available-loan.html#post4633361"][/URL][/SIZE]
                                                  Comment
                                                  • MonkeyF0cker
                                                    SBR Posting Legend
                                                    • 06-12-07
                                                    • 12144

                                                    #60
                                                    Originally posted by big0mar
                                                    No, not in every case. There is always new information that can be gathered from new and different sources.
                                                    Again. It's REALLY hard to setup a web scraper. It takes me ALMOST an hour to scrape data from new sources. You say you can code, but it's pretty obvious that you either can't or are extremely novice.

                                                    Evaluating talent and putting that talent in place. Also, finance, programming, and sports.
                                                    All I see is OVERHEAD.

                                                    Algorithms developed for determining accuracy. A charter that historically has a 99% rate of accuracy wouldn't be graded the same way someone with a 95% rate of accuracy would be.
                                                    And what is the accuracy of the charter verifier?
                                                    Comment
                                                    • big0mar
                                                      SBR MVP
                                                      • 01-09-09
                                                      • 3374

                                                      #61
                                                      Originally posted by MonkeyF0cker
                                                      Again. It's REALLY hard to setup a web scraper. It takes me ALMOST an hour to scrape data from new sources. You say you can code, but it's pretty obvious that you either can't or are extremely novice.
                                                      Right. And if you're scraping from 3 new sources per day, in addition to developing software, in addition to maintaining terabytes worth of data and video, its quite burdensome.

                                                      Originally posted by MonkeyF0cker
                                                      All I see is OVERHEAD.
                                                      Right. Just like any large scale operation.

                                                      Originally posted by MonkeyF0cker
                                                      And what is the accuracy of the charter verifier?
                                                      Not verified. Hence his position.
                                                      [B][B]They key isn't getting rich quick. The key is getting rich slowly, and enjoying it.

                                                      [/B][/B][SIZE=1][URL="http://forum.sbrforum.com/sbr-points/490161-points-available-loan.html#post4633361"][/URL][/SIZE]
                                                      Comment
                                                      • MonkeyF0cker
                                                        SBR Posting Legend
                                                        • 06-12-07
                                                        • 12144

                                                        #62
                                                        Originally posted by big0mar
                                                        It was a lot. In the end maintenance of data became an issue.
                                                        Gee. Ya think?

                                                        Not sure what this means??? I'm just curious as to what data you're referring to. I find a lot of basketball charting, but none that provides everything I would look for. What exactly was absurd?
                                                        It means exactly what it says. Your statement implies that there is a great deal more information to obtain than that which is readily and publicly available. You think that by micromanaging a collective effort at data mining shot charts MANUALLY that YOU'RE the one that's more efficient? How much MORE of an edge do you actually think that garners? LOL. That says it all. There are far more efficient ways to accomplish the exact same thing. Your methods are nothing but archaic and cumbersome.
                                                        Comment
                                                        • big0mar
                                                          SBR MVP
                                                          • 01-09-09
                                                          • 3374

                                                          #63
                                                          Originally posted by MonkeyF0cker
                                                          Gee. Ya think?



                                                          It means exactly what it says. Your statement implies that there is a great deal more information to obtain than that which is readily and publicly available. You think that by micromanaging a collective effort at data mining shot charts MANUALLY that YOU'RE the one that's more efficient? How much MORE of an edge do you actually think that garners? LOL. That says it all. There are far more efficient ways to accomplish the exact same thing. Your methods are nothing but archaic and cumbersome.
                                                          It provided a huge edge for a very long time. More than worth it.

                                                          But, the right answer to my question would have been:

                                                          "here is the data: {citation of data**"

                                                          Why not just post the data you claimed could be easily found?
                                                          [B][B]They key isn't getting rich quick. The key is getting rich slowly, and enjoying it.

                                                          [/B][/B][SIZE=1][URL="http://forum.sbrforum.com/sbr-points/490161-points-available-loan.html#post4633361"][/URL][/SIZE]
                                                          Comment
                                                          • MonkeyF0cker
                                                            SBR Posting Legend
                                                            • 06-12-07
                                                            • 12144

                                                            #64
                                                            Originally posted by big0mar
                                                            Right. And if you're scraping from 3 new sources per day, in addition to developing software, in addition to maintaining terabytes worth of data and video, its quite burdensome.
                                                            LOL. Three new sources per day? Such as? You're in outer space. Come back to planet Earth.

                                                            Right. Just like any large scale operation.
                                                            Just like any BLOATED operation you mean.

                                                            Not verified. Hence his position.
                                                            He obviously couldn't possibly make errors himself.
                                                            Comment
                                                            • MonkeyF0cker
                                                              SBR Posting Legend
                                                              • 06-12-07
                                                              • 12144

                                                              #65
                                                              Originally posted by big0mar
                                                              The right answer to this question would have been:

                                                              "here is the data: {citation of data**"

                                                              Why not just post the data you claimed could be easily found?
                                                              I'm not here to do other people's work.
                                                              Comment
                                                              • big0mar
                                                                SBR MVP
                                                                • 01-09-09
                                                                • 3374

                                                                #66
                                                                Originally posted by MonkeyF0cker
                                                                I'm not here to do other people's work.
                                                                Translation: My data is inferior.
                                                                [B][B]They key isn't getting rich quick. The key is getting rich slowly, and enjoying it.

                                                                [/B][/B][SIZE=1][URL="http://forum.sbrforum.com/sbr-points/490161-points-available-loan.html#post4633361"][/URL][/SIZE]
                                                                Comment
                                                                • MonkeyF0cker
                                                                  SBR Posting Legend
                                                                  • 06-12-07
                                                                  • 12144

                                                                  #67
                                                                  Originally posted by big0mar
                                                                  Translation: My data is inferior.
                                                                  Right. That's exactly what it means.

                                                                  Nice baiting.

                                                                  You lose.
                                                                  Comment
                                                                  • big0mar
                                                                    SBR MVP
                                                                    • 01-09-09
                                                                    • 3374

                                                                    #68
                                                                    Originally posted by MonkeyF0cker
                                                                    Right. That's exactly what it means.

                                                                    Nice baiting.

                                                                    You lose.
                                                                    Lets recap:

                                                                    -Monkey says he can easily find the data on the web

                                                                    -Omar asks Monkey to prove his claim

                                                                    -Monkey refuses
                                                                    [B][B]They key isn't getting rich quick. The key is getting rich slowly, and enjoying it.

                                                                    [/B][/B][SIZE=1][URL="http://forum.sbrforum.com/sbr-points/490161-points-available-loan.html#post4633361"][/URL][/SIZE]
                                                                    Comment
                                                                    • MonkeyF0cker
                                                                      SBR Posting Legend
                                                                      • 06-12-07
                                                                      • 12144

                                                                      #69
                                                                      Originally posted by big0mar
                                                                      Lets recap:

                                                                      -Monkey says he can easily find the data on the web

                                                                      -Omar asks Monkey to prove his claim

                                                                      -Monkey refuses
                                                                      Let's recap:

                                                                      You didn't ASK at all.
                                                                      Comment
                                                                      • MonkeyF0cker
                                                                        SBR Posting Legend
                                                                        • 06-12-07
                                                                        • 12144

                                                                        #70
                                                                        Originally posted by big0mar
                                                                        It provided a huge edge for a very long time. More than worth it.
                                                                        Oh. Didn't see you add this either.

                                                                        But, of course, it did. That goes without saying.

                                                                        Obviously.

                                                                        Oddly not anymore? PROVIDED. Keyword.
                                                                        Comment
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