UFC on FX 1: Guillard vs Miller

**Beelzebubzy** · 12-18-11, 09:57 AM

Brenneman at decent odds. Morecraft at decent dog odds

**gabe** · 12-18-11, 11:30 AM

This is a good card, if things go good betting-wise. A terrible card, if you end up losing.

But yeah, I think this is the worst UFC card I've seen in a while.

Christian Morecraft is on the main card...lol

**mmaed** · 12-18-11, 03:03 PM

Pat Barry should roll over Morecraft...

**mmaed** · 12-18-11, 03:03 PM

Then again he is much much larger than Barry.

**Vaughany** · 12-18-11, 05:03 PM

Yeah if he can get a takedown in the first Barry could be in trouble (despite Morecraft being pretty mediocre)

**Vaughany** · 12-18-11, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by gabe

This is a good card, if things go good betting-wise. A terrible card, if you end up losing.

But yeah, I think this is the worst UFC card I've seen in a while.

Christian Morecraft is on the main card...lol

Couldnt this be applied to any event?! When is it ever a good card if u lose money!

**gabe** · 12-18-11, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by Vaughany

Couldnt this be applied to any event?! When is it ever a good card if u lose money!

Um, when fights are really good. Especially when you've been looking forward to them and they surpass your already high expectations.

UFC 140 was awesome, no matter how much you lost.

**Vaughany** · 12-18-11, 05:58 PM

Oh I see what u mean, yeah I guess seeing what Mir pulled off was worth losing a few dollars!

**FlashinLeather** · 12-19-11, 11:39 AM

What are the thoughts on Jimmo, he looked terrible against Sokoudjou.

**Beelzebubzy** · 12-19-11, 12:10 PM

anyone got a video for the Soko/Jimmo fight?
I think the Jimmo/Vemola fight is loser leaves town. Jimmo is not exciting so 1 loss could do it for him. If available, I will be playing fight goes the distance. Jimmo stays pretty far back with his Lyota Machida doppelganger style

**proposition joe** · 12-19-11, 12:17 PM

Its crazy in retrospect to think about how much hype Vemola had before the Markes fight

**5mike5** · 12-19-11, 02:28 PM

come on ufc, this card is god awful

**Vaughany** · 12-19-11, 02:33 PM

Yet the four main fights will probably all be entertaining

**5mike5** · 12-19-11, 02:35 PM

i sure hope so, becuase this isnt anything to anticipate IMO

**gabe** · 12-19-11, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by 5mike5

i sure hope so, becuase this isnt anything to anticipate IMO

I think Phan vs Hettes has a good chance of being FOTN. Odds on it should be incredible.

**5mike5** · 12-19-11, 03:29 PM

i will keep my eyes open for that play

**gabe** · 12-19-11, 03:45 PM

lol my bad i thought this was the lesnar thread

**Vaughany** · 12-19-11, 05:09 PM

Originally posted by gabe

lol my bad i thought this was the lesnar thread

ha yeah it could be good, Diaz/Cerrone almost seems too easy to get FOTN! Probably end up being Fitch/Hendricks or something random at +1000

**gabe** · 12-19-11, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by Vaughany

ha yeah it could be good, Diaz/Cerrone almost seems too easy to get FOTN! Probably end up being Fitch/Hendricks or something random at +1000

Phan and Hettes are both real exciting fighters, so I would not be surprised if they got it.

Also, Hettes via Submission is a good bet.

**Vaughany** · 12-19-11, 05:43 PM

Originally posted by gabe

Phan and Hettes are both real exciting fighters, so I would not be surprised if they got it.

Also, Hettes via Submission is a good bet.

Not so sure about that, Nam Phan has a big experience advantage and isnt exactly a novice in BJJ being a black-belt! Does Hettes have the wrestling to get Nam Phan to the ground? Will his judo work against Nam Phan? How will he deal with being on the main card and first fight on a big PPV card?

Mike Brown only had success with take-downs against Phan in the first round of their fight and that was only after dropping Phan with a hook. Not only did Phan avoid getting submitted even though he was stunned and Brown had his back but he also came back and comfortably won the second round and arguably the third. I wouldnt play Phan at these odds but I dont see value in Hettes neither unless he reaches +250 range. He showed some holes in the Caceres fight

**gabe** · 12-19-11, 07:41 PM

Originally posted by Vaughany

Not so sure about that, Nam Phan has a big experience advantage and isnt exactly a novice in BJJ being a black-belt! Does Hettes have the wrestling to get Nam Phan to the ground? Will his judo work against Nam Phan? How will he deal with being on the main card and first fight on a big PPV card?

Mike Brown only had success with take-downs against Phan in the first round of their fight and that was only after dropping Phan with a hook. Not only did Phan avoid getting submitted even though he was stunned and Brown had his back but he also came back and comfortably won the second round and arguably the third. I wouldnt play Phan at these odds but I dont see value in Hettes neither unless he reaches +250 range. He showed some holes in the Caceres fight

Mike Brown doesn't have any Judo takedowns.

Also, this dude can go to a submission on the feet. Grab a leg and lock in a heel-hook, a la Paul Sass vs Michael Johnson. He doesn't necessarily have to score a takedown to get a submission.

I like Phan, though. I'm only cool with betting against him 'cos it's a 2 to 1 dog who has a good shot.

I think The Kid will shine in his first PPV outing. Worst case scenario, a Fight of the Night worthy decision loss.

**Vaughany** · 12-20-11, 04:31 AM

Originally posted by gabe

Mike Brown doesn't have any Judo takedowns.

Also, this dude can go to a submission on the feet. Grab a leg and lock in a heel-hook, a la Paul Sass vs Michael Johnson. He doesn't necessarily have to score a takedown to get a submission.

I like Phan, though. I'm only cool with betting against him 'cos it's a 2 to 1 dog who has a good shot.

I think The Kid will shine in his first PPV outing. Worst case scenario, a Fight of the Night worthy decision loss.

Doesnt have judo takedowns but was a State wrestling Champion - which one has transitioned better in to MMA - wrestling or judo? How many guys do you see getting takedowns through judo throws nowadays?

But yes he can grab a submission from jumping on Nam Phan's back or grabbing a leg, maybe he can be a Paul Sass type fighter

**gabe** · 12-20-11, 04:52 AM

Originally posted by Vaughany

Doesnt have judo takedowns but was a State wrestling Champion - which one has transitioned better in to MMA - wrestling or judo? How many guys do you see getting takedowns through judo throws nowadays?

But yes he can grab a submission from jumping on Nam Phan's back or grabbing a leg, maybe he can be a Paul Sass type fighter

lol you often say things that don't make sense... all mma fighters train in wrestling, there are only a few judo specialists. you can't expect judo throws from anybody, but you can expect a wrestling takedown from anybody. really makes no sense why you would ask which we see more of.

wrestling and judo have both transitioned well into mma. wreslting is part of mma. judo is something only a few guys know, whereas everyone trains in wrestling. guys like karo parisyan and the stun gun transitioned pretty well into MMA. Judo is pretty much the only thing Parisyan knows and he went really far in the UFC until personal problems hurt his career.

**Poppa Catfish** · 12-20-11, 05:14 AM

Don't forget about the good doctor, Mr Ferguson.

What Gabe is saying has some validity, most fighters have developed at least half decent sprawls but still have stances wide open for foot sweeps and other judo attacks. I haven't seen much on Hettes, unsure if his judo will translate to no gi. He very well could be exactly like Ishii with superior grip fighting and balance, in which case who really cares about his judo experience.

**Vaughany** · 12-20-11, 05:44 AM

Originally posted by gabe

lol you often say things that don't make sense... all mma fighters train in wrestling, there are only a few judo specialists. you can't expect judo throws from anybody, but you can expect a wrestling takedown from anybody. really makes no sense why you would ask which we see more of.

wrestling and judo have both transitioned well into mma. wreslting is part of mma. judo is something only a few guys know, whereas everyone trains in wrestling. guys like karo parisyan and the stun gun transitioned pretty well into MMA. Judo is pretty much the only thing Parisyan knows and he went really far in the UFC until personal problems hurt his career.

I'm not saying that judo hasn't transitioned well in to MMA, I'm saying that wrestling is clearly the main basis used for getting take-downs. I was responding because you said "Mike Brown doesnt have judo takedowns" inferring that he offered an inferior threat to Nam Phan in comparison to what Hettes offers because Hettes has judo. My response was that yes Mike Brown didn't offer judo but he had decent wrestling pedigree - if you ask any fighter what they'd rather face I'd hazard a guess that they'd rather face a judo guy than a wrestler. But yes you are correct if u are suggesting that just because Phan could deal with Brown's wrestling doesn't mean he will necessarily also be able to deal with Hettes judo - because granted they are very different. But as Poppa said, a lot of judo moves rely on the gi, and is not as easy to pull off moves without it. There are a lot of guys who come from a judo background - Ross Pearson is a brown-belt in Judo and started when he was very young along with Taekwondo - but how often have you seen him use it?

**gabe** · 12-20-11, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by Vaughany

I'm not saying that judo hasn't transitioned well in to MMA, I'm saying that wrestling is clearly the main basis used for getting take-downs. I was responding because you said "Mike Brown doesnt have judo takedowns" inferring that he offered an inferior threat to Nam Phan in comparison to what Hettes offers because Hettes has judo. My response was that yes Mike Brown didn't offer judo but he had decent wrestling pedigree - if you ask any fighter what they'd rather face I'd hazard a guess that they'd rather face a judo guy than a wrestler. But yes you are correct if u are suggesting that just because Phan could deal with Brown's wrestling doesn't mean he will necessarily also be able to deal with Hettes judo - because granted they are very different. But as Poppa said, a lot of judo moves rely on the gi, and is not as easy to pull off moves without it. There are a lot of guys who come from a judo background - Ross Pearson is a brown-belt in Judo and started when he was very young along with Taekwondo - but how often have you seen him use it?

My point was that you can't count a guy out from getting takedowns if he's a judo guy. Guys who know judo easily get guys down to the mat.

I haven't seen Ross use his judo. I haven't seen him do anything but strike, to tell you the truth. He has success there so he sticks to it, I guess.

Also, I think anybody would face a talented wrestler over a talented judo guy. A wrestler will take you down and keep you there, but a judo guy will slam you down and keep you there. And probably take your arm off in the process. (note: *talented* judo guy. would fight an average judo guy over an average wrestler.)

I personally know some talented judo guys who beat wrestlers and jiu-jitsu black belts like it's nothing. Parisyan and Gamburyan used to fight in BJJ tournaments with their judo skills and win.

**Poppa Catfish** · 12-20-11, 09:29 PM

and Dave Camarillo supposedly was feared, and his prodigy Matt Darcy (sp?) is killing in tournaments (hope he decides to try his hand at MMA to show off true judo)

As a judo player myself, I would love to claim dominance, but the truth is average black belt destroys the average judo black belt on the ground, especially if the judo player does little to no cross training. We spend very little time working on ground work since the refs only give 15-20 seconds to establish a dominant position, before standing up. So naturally it isn't as important as practicing throws.

**more_betterness** · 12-20-11, 11:28 PM

The no-gi versions of judo throws are used pretty frequently in amateur wrestling. Someone who has trained with NCAA level wrestlers has definitely been exposed to some high level throws.

Originally posted by gabe

A wrestler will take you down and keep you there, but a judo guy will slam you down and keep you there.

Slams from double legs and body locks happen all the time.

**gabe** · 12-21-11, 03:30 AM

Originally posted by Poppa Catfish

and Dave Camarillo supposedly was feared, and his prodigy Matt Darcy (sp?) is killing in tournaments (hope he decides to try his hand at MMA to show off true judo)

As a judo player myself, I would love to claim dominance, but the truth is average black belt destroys the average judo black belt on the ground, especially if the judo player does little to no cross training. We spend very little time working on ground work since the refs only give 15-20 seconds to establish a dominant position, before standing up. So naturally it isn't as important as practicing throws.

My buddy grew up training with Manny and Karo and they would win BJJ tournaments with their judo skills. Gokor Chivichyan and Gene LeBell's style judo differs from judo you'll learn anywhere else. They would even go to Japan and easily win Judo tournaments there against the best guys. Mousasi is training with Gokor.

**Poppa Catfish** · 12-21-11, 04:06 AM

That is interesting but it is the exception and not the rule, just like BJ Penn entering into a black belt judo competition and dominating. Applying some elite judo player's accomplishments to an average one is like crediting other Karate black belts because of Machida's success.

and you are talking two of the elite-iest of the elites.

**Poppa Catfish** · 12-21-11, 04:13 AM

and to be fair we have seen several gold medal winners fall absolutely flat on their face, so even the elite can struggle.

Sad to say

**TheCalculator** · 12-21-11, 12:56 PM

I think one of the best guys to use modified judo throws (they're somewhere between greco roman and judo) in MMA is Jon Jones.

On a side note: One of the reasons judo guys don't use their techniques as much is because there's no gis. If you're used to training with a gi -- then rolling without one almost like starting over.

**The HOFF** · 01-11-12, 11:54 AM

Melvin Guillard +150
Jim Miller -200

**Vaughany** · 01-11-12, 11:59 AM

Originally posted by The HOFF

Melvin Guillard +150
Jim Miller -200

What I thought it would be, no play for me at moment. Kalikas rarely gets it wrong