Problem I have with the Kosceck Daley fight

urge2kill · 05-11-10, 09:45 AM

Kos looked pretty active to me up until the last couple minutes or so of the fight. How many times did he improve to mount or take Daley's back? Daley did a good job of controlling his posture and avoiding the GnP.

Educ8d Degener8 · 05-11-10, 09:56 AM

urge2kill pretty much summed it up...

http://media.ufc.tv/i.cfc?method=get&w=550&cs=1&s=ufc11310koscheckvsdaley007.jpg

http://media.ufc.tv/i.cfc?method=get&w=550&cs=1&s=ufc11310koscheckvsdaley011.jpg

RobbReport · 05-11-10, 11:04 AM

Koscheck is one of the greatest wrestlers in MMA history.

DDT · 05-11-10, 11:15 AM

Kos should have gotten an Academy Award for his acting in the first round.

babyanni · 05-11-10, 12:04 PM

kos could have been more active i agree but a win is a win

36mafia · 05-11-10, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by DDT

Kos should have gotten an Academy Award for his acting in the first round.

Pabinator · 05-11-10, 03:53 PM

A win is a win, I just think they should have standed them up & i didnt see him doing anything but holding him on the ground. Refs should have stood them up

Jrod124 · 05-11-10, 04:10 PM

Koscheck said to much was riding on the fight to get stubborn. He had to get the win and set up a title shot. He couldn't risk getting koed by a guy with such power like Paul Daley. It was smart, boring yes, but def smart.

Straight Cash · 05-11-10, 04:33 PM

The Brits need to learn some takedown defense...

knownone · 05-11-10, 05:26 PM

Koscheck did get hit by the knee it's pretty evident he may have over exaggerated but it was still illegal and stupid by Daley he should have had a point taken away because it was obviously intentional.

Fieldysnuts44 · 05-11-10, 05:40 PM

I think Koscheck was active enough to earn the W,but what Daly did was total bullshit move.Now he will never get a chance to fight in UFC again.

Vrakas · 05-11-10, 05:53 PM

I don't think Koscheck did anything wrong. The knee hit him. Even though the effect of the knee was exaggerated, there still should be point deductions for it. Koscheck did everything he could to ensure the victory and his acting, if it was acting, was perfectly acceptable because he is entitled to the time for recovery and the warning to Daley or point deduction to Daley. That's the way illegal moves work and should work. As far as him not doing anything on the ground, he did plenty to keep it there. He always advanced position and was looking for submission attempts. The reason why the fight was not entertaining was because of Daley's inability to fight using MMA. Instead of Daley exploding up or even trying to get up, he was trying to hip escape into half gaurd or full guard, the entire fight. It doesn't really do a fighter a lot of good to be on their back just because their position is good if they're losing the fight. Koscheck said it best, if you don't want to be on the ground get your ass back up. If I was a MMA fighter I would either learn really good wrestling or really good takedown defense before doing anything else. Almost every British fighter is completely one dimensional and can easily be dominated by someone with good wrestling. I don't know why they train their ground game so much, when being on the ground the entire fight means they lose.

doubleleg · 05-11-10, 06:03 PM

It's not as easy to hit someone on the ground as it looks. A lot of times, when you go to strike on the ground it will give your opponent the space he needs to escape, especially from side control.

The referees are told to stand fighters up if there is no action but if this is done too often then it won't give the ground guys a chance to work. The sport will become kickboxing with takedowns.

Tree Rollins · 05-11-10, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by knownone

Koscheck did get hit by the knee it's pretty evident he may have over exaggerated but it was still illegal and stupid by Daley he should have had a point taken away because it was obviously intentional.

In the end, the point should have been taken from Koscheck and not Daley. I heard that the ref reversed the point he took from daley, i'm not sure when that happened. There is a rule though against faking injuries and it calls for a point to be taken. If the ref reversed the point he took from Daley during the fight, because of some cageside info he got, then he made a mistake by not taking a point from Kos for faking an injury.
Hopefully, all future refs in koscheck fights are aware that he is a blatant and notorious cheater (which is exactly what he is for faking injuries, because he is trying to cheat his way into getting a point). They should be watching out for it in the future and hopefully it doesn't happen again.

Kaladarus · 05-11-10, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by Tree Rollins

In the end, the point should have been taken from Koscheck and not Daley. I heard that the ref reversed the point he took from daley, i'm not sure when that happened. There is a rule though against faking injuries and it calls for a point to be taken. If the ref reversed the point he took from Daley during the fight, because of some cageside info he got, then he made a mistake by not taking a point from Kos for faking an injury.
Hopefully, all future refs in koscheck fights are aware that he is a blatant and notorious cheater (which is exactly what he is for faking injuries, because he is trying to cheat his way into getting a point). They should be watching out for it in the future and hopefully it doesn't happen again.

He didn't really fake an injury, he just faked getting hurt from an illegal move. It is kind of stupid that he got away with it, but in the end Daley was the one that made the illegal move. People got to watch Koscheck more for sure. The problem was that Koscheck knew Daley's move was illegal and took whatever advantage he could get from it. I do agree it was exaggerated, but Daley showed that he is not a MMA fighter by the end of the fight. Learn the rules and get some takedown defense before complaining about someone else using the rules to their advantage.

Tree Rollins · 05-11-10, 08:03 PM

Originally posted by Kaladarus

He didn't really fake an injury, he just faked getting hurt from an illegal move. It is kind of stupid that he got away with it, but in the end Daley was the one that made the illegal move. People got to watch Koscheck more for sure. The problem was that Koscheck knew Daley's move was illegal and took whatever advantage he could get from it. I do agree it was exaggerated, but Daley showed that he is not a MMA fighter by the end of the fight. Learn the rules and get some takedown defense before complaining about someone else using the rules to their advantage.

The move was illegal, true, and the ref was on that, he stepped in before Koscheck did his acting job. The faking was unnecessary, he was trying to cheat his way into getting a point taken from Daley.

IMO, "faking getting hurt from an illegal move", is the same thing as "faking an injury". And trying to "take whatever advantage he could get from it", is underhanded, cheap, dirty, and shameful, and easily deserves being penalized a point. The same way Daley deserves what he's getting for his cheap and dirty tactics.

Tree Rollins · 05-11-10, 08:06 PM

There isn't a whole lot lower in MMA then acting like you're hurt/injured to bend the rules and get ahead in a fight.

clarkd32 · 05-11-10, 09:26 PM

koschek did go for a couple submissions and some gnp on daley...

Kaladarus · 05-11-10, 09:29 PM

You're right taking advantage of something like that is cheap for sure. Anyways GSP is going to do to Koscheck exactly what Koscheck did to Daley. Koscheck will get what he deserves and GSP wont give Koscheck any opportunities to pull anything like what he's pulled off in his last two fights.

Tree Rollins · 05-11-10, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by Kaladarus

You're right taking advantage of something like that is cheap for sure. Anyways GSP is going to do to Koscheck exactly what Koscheck did to Daley. Koscheck will get what he deserves and GSP wont give Koscheck any opportunities to pull anything like what he's pulled off in his last two fights.

Karma is going to smack Josh Koscheck straight in the mouth, in the form of GSP's fist.

RobbReport · 05-11-10, 10:03 PM

Originally posted by DDT

Kos should have gotten an Academy Award for his acting in the first round.

Pabinator · 05-12-10, 03:00 PM

My problem is Josh didnt do much of anything on the ground but try to control him. (which is ok) but he wasnt trying to put him in subs or pound him, so basically he was laying on top of him proving he could hold him there.

He WON the fight, I am not arguing that point, it just doesnt make sense to me to let fighters just take them down & just lay on them with control for the remainder of the round.

GSP punishes people while he is doing that, but Josh just layed there, atleast in my eyes. He was just trying to hold him there. Smart strategy on his part, but the refs shouldnt let them just do that without trying to sub or work for pounding.

terpkeg · 05-12-10, 09:14 PM

I feel like a had not seen serious lay n pray in the ufc in quite some time.

brooks85 · 05-12-10, 09:41 PM

Vrakas · 05-12-10, 10:35 PM

Originally posted by Pabinator

My problem is Josh didnt do much of anything on the ground but try to control him. (which is ok) but he wasnt trying to put him in subs or pound him, so basically he was laying on top of him proving he could hold him there.

He WON the fight, I am not arguing that point, it just doesnt make sense to me to let fighters just take them down & just lay on them with control for the remainder of the round.

GSP punishes people while he is doing that, but Josh just layed there, atleast in my eyes. He was just trying to hold him there. Smart strategy on his part, but the refs shouldnt let them just do that without trying to sub or work for pounding.

I feel like he did significantly more in 3 rounds against Daley, than GSP did in 5 rounds to Hardy. The GSP vs. Hardy fight was one of the worst fights of all time.

Shane · 05-12-10, 11:17 PM

Respectfully disagree. While not a barn burner by any means, GSP/Hardy had at least a few moments. The arm bar and kimura attempts by GSP were far more exciting than anything that happened DURING the Kos/Daley fight.

terpkeg · 05-12-10, 11:39 PM

Originally posted by Shane

Respectfully disagree. While not a barn burner by any means, GSP/Hardy had at least a few moments. The arm bar and kimura attempts by GSP were far more exciting than anything that happened DURING the Kos/Daley fight.

Agreed, GSP had some very deep subs that probably get a tapout from 85% of fighters in the same situation. Daley was begging Kos to try and take the arm during the third round. Kos wanted no part of having to get back up with Daley so he made no attempts to end while he had mount. But, you do what you have to do, now he gets his title shot.

knownone · 05-13-10, 12:38 AM

Originally posted by Tree Rollins

In the end, the point should have been taken from Koscheck and not Daley. I heard that the ref reversed the point he took from daley, i'm not sure when that happened. There is a rule though against faking injuries and it calls for a point to be taken. If the ref reversed the point he took from Daley during the fight, because of some cageside info he got, then he made a mistake by not taking a point from Kos for faking an injury.
Hopefully, all future refs in koscheck fights are aware that he is a blatant and notorious cheater (which is exactly what he is for faking injuries, because he is trying to cheat his way into getting a point). They should be watching out for it in the future and hopefully it doesn't happen again.

How is he a cheater exactly? I don't understand why people blame Koscheck when it's his opponent who made the mistake of KNEEING A DOWNED opponent; Is that Koschecks fault? Did he exaggerate of course he did if he didn't Daley would have jumped on him, Koscheck did the smart thing he played up the injury collected himself and went on to win the fight... That makes him a cheater? What fight were you watching Koscheck dominated the entire fight why would he cheat? what does he gain from getting a point taken from Daley when he already won the round and clearly didn't wanna stand with Daley and was able to take Daley down at will.

smarmy · 05-13-10, 09:27 AM

I can't stand Kos. I thought that his acting in the first was unwarranted. A knee to the head of a downed opponent is still that even if it's a grazing blow and isn't right on the money. The point deduction should have stood. Kos did totally control the fight even if Daly's ground defense made it seem that there was no action going on. Kos won the fight rightfully. Daly's actions after the fight speak for themselves. And his explanation of, "I didn't hear the bell", is pure BS. I hope this guy never gets a fight in front of a televised audience again.

Pabinator · 05-13-10, 11:15 AM

I still think they should have stood them up.

My problem was with the actual fight, of course what he did after was stupid & all but if Daley's defense was good enough to stop Josh from anything happening on the ground, they should have stood them up again, instead of them laying on each other with no action.

Tree Rollins · 05-13-10, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by knownone

How is he a cheater exactly? I don't understand why people blame Koscheck when it's his opponent who made the mistake of KNEEING A DOWNED opponent; Is that Koschecks fault? Did he exaggerate of course he did if he didn't Daley would have jumped on him, Koscheck did the smart thing he played up the injury collected himself and went on to win the fight... That makes him a cheater? What fight were you watching Koscheck dominated the entire fight why would he cheat? what does he gain from getting a point taken from Daley when he already won the round and clearly didn't wanna stand with Daley and was able to take Daley down at will.

He cheated by exaggerating the injury in hopes of ensuring a point would be stripped from his opponent. It's that simple. Just throwing an illegal blow shouldn't mean you automatically get a point stripped, how terrrible would that be for a huge title fight to be decided by a dumb mistake like that. This is why the point deduction is at the discretion of the ref. The ref jumped in and stopped Daley after he threw the illegal knee that didn't land. If it wasn't for Josh trying to get a steal cheap point instead of being a man about it, the ref would have warned Daley and the fight would have went on. As i said earlier, there is a rule against faking injury and it requires a deduction of a point. I have no respect for Koscheck or anyone who supports what he's done in his last two fights. It's a disgrace to the sport.

Kaladarus · 05-13-10, 06:20 PM

It would be nice if points got taken from illegal moves regardless of the damage. There's a reason why they're illegal. Top fighters know better than to use them. It's part of the game and should be instinct for any real MMA fighter not to use them.

Tree Rollins · 05-13-10, 07:44 PM

Originally posted by Kaladarus

It would be nice if points got taken from illegal moves regardless of the damage. There's a reason why they're illegal. Top fighters know better than to use them. It's part of the game and should be instinct for any real MMA fighter not to use them.

Sometimes it's not clear cut though. With knees to a downed opponent, a guy could be up and as you throw your knee, his knee hits the ground, i've seen it happen. Think of 12-to-6 elbows.... a guy is throwing elbows from different angles from the mount, all of a sudden he throws what looks like a 12-6, it doesn't even land, instead of warning him you think they should stop immediately, take a point, give the guy time to recover and restart the fight on the feet? This could potentially ruin many a great fight. To take away referee discretion would be a terrible idea.