Workout Advice...

[moretti]

So you're not having trouble with the knees during backsquats but with the back?

Are we talking about pain or just about the back being the weakest link in your Squat?
Other than to deload and check/let check your technique its difficult to give any advice or look
for solutions as theres no further information about you.
Depending on what you're already doing, you might want to start to do some mobility work additionally to
your current curriculum.

[NunyaBidness]

So you're not having trouble with the knees during backsquats but with the back?

Are we talking about pain or just about the back being the weakest link in your Squat?
Other than to deload and check/let check your technique its difficult to give any advice or look
for solutions as theres no further information about you.
Depending on what you're already doing, you might want to start to do some mobility work additionally to
your current curriculum.

I have ankylosing spondylitis, my bones and specifically my vertebrae and sacro-iliac joint are fusing together slowly, which is why I started lifting. I'm in constant pain due to it anyway. So, its not as simple as what I'm doing wrong compared to a normal lifter, its simply quite probable that I can not and should not be placing that sort of weight on my spine, or perhaps I need to cut down on my volume.

I do loads of mobility work, I have a ham-glute machine that I twist myself every which way on as well as yoga, etc.

Just a tough spot to figure out what to do, as I'm trying to build muscle in my lower back to strengthen the supporting muscle of my spine, but the spine itself can't take the pressure. Hard to get information that is usable as very few people with my condition, lift. Rippletoe says, "I'm not a rheumathologist" and my rheumy says, "You don't have to work so hard."

[Bumdeal]

Sorry to hear that, Nunya. Sounds like a painful condition. Did a quick google search and water aerobics keeps coming up. Low impact on the joints. I'm sure this isn't new information to you.

Hoping for the best for you..

[Educ8d Degener8]

5x5 worked great for me years ago when i bulked the f*ck up in my early 20's.
But really Marz, just focus on learning proper form and don't be one of those chest / bi's 5 times per week douchers.
Calorie surplus, clean carbs, plenty of protein, good fats - all that basic sh*t. (I ate brown rice with everything back then)
Compound lifts (once you develop basic strength), while minding your gawdamn form.

I'll see if I can dig up the pdf I have of Starting Strength...

Nuns - have you tried front squats? Is the "pain" from back squats? Have you checked your form to make sure you're not good-morning'ing out of the hole? When I started to make progress and got a little overambitious with the weight, I was overcompensating out of the hole and had some back pain. Fixed my hip drive, and never looked back.

[mirinquads]

I've looked into it, I modify a lot of stuff as is. Right now I'm trying to figure out my squats anyway, as my muscles can handle a lot more weight than my spine can; I'm trying bulgarian split squats with a barbell right now, but my knees aren't enjoying it. Anybody got any other ideas? My squats are lagged so far behind my other lifts its not even funny.

Heavy Core work definitely is going to help, its a huge part of the squat. Front squat accessory as well, as it works the core in a way that carries over well to the squat. Are you sure you're doing optimal form? It can take quite some time to get down, remember to keep the spine as erect as possible, push out and flex the abs and engage your glutes(No homo). Remember to go below parallel as well, as this will allow you to utilize the stretch reflex, and give you more in terms of athletic ability and natural movement patterns.
Are you flexible enough? This also helped me a lot, stretching the hip abductors and opening up the hips makes it easier to engage all the muscles needed.

[mirinquads]

I have ankylosing spondylitis, my bones and specifically my vertebrae and sacro-iliac joint are fusing together slowly, which is why I started lifting. I'm in constant pain due to it anyway. So, its not as simple as what I'm doing wrong compared to a normal lifter, its simply quite probable that I can not and should not be placing that sort of weight on my spine, or perhaps I need to cut down on my volume.

I do loads of mobility work, I have a ham-glute machine that I twist myself every which way on as well as yoga, etc.

Just a tough spot to figure out what to do, as I'm trying to build muscle in my lower back to strengthen the supporting muscle of my spine, but the spine itself can't take the pressure. Hard to get information that is usable as very few people with my condition, lift. Rippletoe says, "I'm not a rheumathologist" and my rheumy says, "You don't have to work so hard."

I personally suffer from a bad sort of hypermobility that also penetrates with my joints quite a lot, the reason i started lifting as well. You definitely need to experiment and find out what works for you, with a condition like that. Some exercises you're better off not doing or modifying for your needs. I wouldnt recommend those one legged squats for instance. You might have to totally forgo the squat, or change to high rep version, as the squat puts a heavy load on the spine in an unnatural position. In your case you might replace them with leg press and lunges with dumbells, as this will work your legs well without a heavy load on top of the spine. For strengthening spine rectors I would do deadlifts instead, as this is a much more natural way to train the spine. The human spine wasn't designed to have a huge load on top of it. But i have forgone several exercises that just didn't work with my bodies limitations.

[NunyaBidness]

Yeah, the front squat is frequently recommended for people with back pain, but the front squat actually is much more painful to me, I can't do 75 pounds on it without excruciating pain.

It's hard to explain the issue to people because bone pain is so different than typical back pain, its not a nervy, pinchy sort of thing, it doesn't radiate or travel down the legs like standard back pain. It's a very localized pain, difficult to describe except it is deep and sickening.

My form is not perfect, but I do use barsense and comparing it to most "check my form" videos online it looks pretty good. The bar is moving straight up and down, I'm definitely going to parallel(not ass to grass though), that took me a long time to get to, my width was too narrow initially and I was working with a guy who had terrible advice.

As far as flexibility my hip joints are extremely flexible, my hamstrings are relatively tight though, but I'm working on that.

I do catch myself occasionally good morninging out of the hole on late reps in work sets, but often the pain sets in before that. For example two workout I had to quit after doing a warmup set at 165, and last workout I quit after 1 rep at 135. But prior to that I had gone up 7 straight workouts in a row after being stuck for a month.

Perhaps I'll post a vid next week and see what you guys think.

[NunyaBidness]

I personally suffer from a bad sort of hypermobility that also penetrates with my joints quite a lot, the reason i started lifting as well. You definitely need to experiment and find out what works for you, with a condition like that. Some exercises you're better off not doing or modifying for your needs. I wouldnt recommend those one legged squats for instance. You might have to totally forgo the squat, or change to high rep version, as the squat puts a heavy load on the spine in an unnatural position. In your case you might replace them with leg press and lunges with dumbells, as this will work your legs well without a heavy load on top of the spine. For strengthening spine rectors I would do deadlifts instead, as this is a much more natural way to train the spine. The human spine wasn't designed to have a huge load on top of it. But i have forgone several exercises that just didn't work with my bodies limitations.

Why do you think the 1 legged squats are a bad idea? I thought maybe if my spine can't take 150 pounds for example, but I can do a regular squat for 250, then doing a 1 legged squat of 125 is going to put a similar workload on my legs/hips while putting less pressure on the spine. What do you think about just upping my reps then?

I do deadlifts and have no pain or trouble with them at all, I was doing rippletoe's version, but recently switched to Ant Hawthorne's version which has really forced me to engage my hips/glutes more, I think I was pulling too much before and am starting to get the press through the floor idea.

[mirinquads]

Shakes and powders really don't work unless you use liquid egg whites in them.... Eat real foods, meats, chicken, fish, and a ton of protein and carbs.. Always be eating in other words.. Cut back on long cardio sessions too.. Just lift hard and with heavy weight and you might start to grow slowly.....

You're banned from this thread Jibby.

Marz heres all you need programming wise: http://stronglifts.com/5x5/. You can throw in some accessories, but focus on the compounds, Chinup/pullups, Shoulder press, Deadlift, Squat, Bench. Lift heavy and dont be a pussy about it. Accessory exercises in around 8-10 rep range, same with abs.

Diet should be a decent mix, around 1 to 1,5 grams of protein pr kilo of bodyweight, any thing more is wasted on non steroid users and bullshit to sell you more supplements. Don't be scared of fats and good carbs. And protein powder is fine with

http://scoobysworkshop.com/calorie-calculator/ - Here you can calculate your calorie intake, just eat around 500 calories over maintenance, you will be gaining at a decent rate without too much fat gain.

For you i might recommend some martial arts training as well, as you have an extremely punch able face.

[NunyaBidness]

Sorry to hear that, Nunya. Sounds like a painful condition. Did a quick google search and water aerobics keeps coming up. Low impact on the joints. I'm sure this isn't new information to you.

Hoping for the best for you..

Thanks! The local high school has arthritis swim hours where they heat it to the right temperature for arthritis sufferers (A.S. is related to Rheumatoid arthritis), but when I went down there it was full of old people just standing around in the water without much room to swim, wasn't ideal.

Before I took up weightlifting, I was biking heavily, still do occasionally, but mostly I just walk every day to keep limber.

[NunyaBidness]

For you i might recommend some martial arts training as well, as you have an extremely punch able face.

hahahahhahhahahahahhahaaaaaa

[mirinquads]

Why do you think the 1 legged squats are a bad idea? I thought maybe if my spine can't take 150 pounds for example, but I can do a regular squat for 250, then doing a 1 legged squat of 125 is going to put a similar workload on my legs/hips while putting less pressure on the spine. What do you think about just upping my reps then?

I do deadlifts and have no pain or trouble with them at all, I was doing rippletoe's version, but recently switched to Ant Hawthorne's version which has really forced me to engage my hips/glutes more, I think I was pulling too much before and am starting to get the press through the floor idea.

Yeah deadlift is in many ways more of a push than pull if you look at it in an objective way. Beastly exercise .

One legged squats wrecked havoc on my knees, thats all I will say. The way you go down with the V shaped backleg and heavy pressure on the front knee was terrible for me. But its extremely individual, and you might have no problem doing it. But with the joint problems you have, i wouldnt risk it. Going too hard once can penetrate you up for a long time, especially if you have a condition. I learned this the hard time a couple of times.
Though, if you want to try it, I would most definitely do it with one or two dumbbells in hand instead, for relieving pressure on the spine. Lunches with dumbbells worked really well for me, and is an absolutely brutal exercise. But like stated, you test out what works for you, very individual.
On the rep ranges, I can really recommend higher rep ranges 10-12 with the squat, it will cause good hypertrophy and easier on the spine. A lot of Powerlifters actually train in this way as well, as surprising as that sounds. Greater workrate will carry over to strength well, both through increased hypertrophy and muscle efficiency(The body getting accustomed to/perfecting the form and movement)

[marzwoody]

You're banned from this thread Jibby.

Marz heres all you need programming wise: http://stronglifts.com/5x5/. You can throw in some accessories, but focus on the compounds, Chinup/pullups, Shoulder press, Deadlift, Squat, Bench. Lift heavy and dont be a pussy about it. Accessory exercises in around 8-10 rep range, same with abs.

Diet should be a decent mix, around 1 to 1,5 grams of protein pr kilo of bodyweight, any thing more is wasted on non steroid users and bullshit to sell you more supplements. Don't be scared of fats and good carbs. And protein powder is fine with

http://scoobysworkshop.com/calorie-calculator/ - Here you can calculate your calorie intake, just eat around 500 calories over maintenance, you will be gaining at a decent rate without too much fat gain.

For you i might recommend some martial arts training as well, as you have an extremely punch able face.

Thanks dude hahaha

[NunyaBidness]

Yeah deadlift is in many ways more of a push than pull if you look at it in an objective way. Beastly exercise .

One legged squats wrecked havoc on my knees, thats all I will say. The way you go down with the V shaped backleg and heavy pressure on the front knee was terrible for me. But its extremely individual, and you might have no problem doing it. But with the joint problems you have, i wouldnt risk it. Going too hard once can penetrate you up for a long time, especially if you have a condition. I learned this the hard time a couple of times.
Though, if you want to try it, I would most definitely do it with one or two dumbbells in hand instead, for relieving pressure on the spine. Lunches with dumbbells worked really well for me, and is an absolutely brutal exercise. But like stated, you test out what works for you, very individual.
On the rep ranges, I can really recommend higher rep ranges 10-12 with the squat, it will cause good hypertrophy and easier on the spine. A lot of Powerlifters actually train in this way as well, as surprising as that sounds. Greater workrate will carry over to strength well, both through increased hypertrophy and muscle efficiency(The body getting accustomed to/perfecting the form and movement)

Yeah, that is exactly where I'm getting the knee pain. I think I'm going to try Zercher squats today, never done them before, seems the deload the spine a bit and engage the core a lot more. We'll see what happens with that.

I did start off doing lunges with dumbbells before I bought my cage, definitely not a fun exercise. That's the thing, I really enjoy doing barbell squats when they're not killing me.

[marzwoody]

^ You should post a video of your workout. and others could aswell. although i doubt many (if any) will. i would once i get into a solid routine, turn this into a workout information thread

[moretti]

Thought about not further posting in the thread, as Nunyas precondition is really reason enough to
not lift heavy at all, as you mentioned yourself i think, and marzwoody´s situation was covered.
I'm going to comment on a couple of things though.

Nunya, if you can't squat without additional pain, there's really no sense in doing it. That being said, if you
can squat up to a certain weight and then sometimes experience pain, you could stop using a stronglifts template
where you are trying to squat heavy every time and start doing cycles where you change up lighter and heavier weight days. The lighter days would be higher rep-ranges, the heavier days lower rep-ranges and less total volume, maybe even just a couple of clustered singles.
I would not suggest just changing to a strict higher rep-range over 10 regimen while still being on your strength threshold. This would open you up to improper form in the latter repetitions of a set which could then again lead
to putting more weight on the spine, which is obviously not what you want.
I did like the Swimming/Water gymnastics idea although it seems somewhat unrelated to me as it doesn't
change your issues while lifting.
Other exercises you could check for suitability are squats with a dip belt around the waist to take the pressure of your back: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6_-qN0XD-c
(first video i found, just to give you a picture)
Also, have you tried deadlifting with a trap-bar/hex-bar? If you can do that with less pain than a squat
you may be able to substitute parts of your squat training with that. Personally because of a more upright
starting position i found it to be more of a squatting than lifting situation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_bs9WavHnI

(again, just to be clear what we're talking about. If you can find bigger plates, starting position gets even higher and becomes even more of a partial squat, IMO)
Again, those are just ideas of what you could do, there's no way someone is able to tell you on the internet whats wrong and right. If you feel pain, look for substitutions you can do, if its pain free, look how far you can go.
Regarding the Deadliftingvideo, I didn't really like that. Where do you see differences to basic deadlifting?
It seems to me all he's doing different is starting with his butt a little higher than usual in the early demonstration. The talk on distance between shin and bar is nullified by the video of him using heavy load in the end, IMO.( Not even saying he's using bad form or anything, he just seems to be making a bigger deal out of the basics than they are)(Also, don't want to take away from his strength, but he seems to be built for deadlifting. Note how short the path is the bar travels in the video at the end.)
Short note on the protein intake recommendation: while there may be no upside in completely stuffing your body with protein and there surely is ongoing discussion on where that starts, 1g/kg seems more like a free pass to eat crap than anything else..

Sorry for the long text.
Just my 2 cents

[Educ8d Degener8]

Why is eating protein a free pass to stuff your face?

Chicken breast, tuna and orange roughly ain't exactly my idea of fun snacks...
.

Now if Cheetos were loaded with protein...

[moretti]

You got me wrong there. What I was trying to say was:
1g/kg protein is included even in the bad diet of a lot of everyday people and protein stuffing doesn't start here.
Obviously you can still watch your diet without crossing this threshold.
(Even though telling a starter not to go beyond would lead to him not changing his diet at all)
Does this seem more reasonable to you now?

[mirinquads]

Zercher squats are fun, but pretty hard to do properly, especially getting the bar in to position. Likely shouldnt be your go to squat / leg exercise. They will destory your core though.
I can promise you that deadlifting video is the best form tutorial you will get. Especially the start of the hip position, thats very important. The bar not touching the legs can depend entirely on how you're build. If not, you will easily start to half squat/good morning the weight up, which will be shit form. Also the tightness and pushing forward rather than pulling. Only thing i disagree with is the explosion thing, that mostly comes into play if you're using heavy weights. Exploding will carry over well to athletic endeavours as well.
The dipbelt and Trap bar might be good idea's though, as the Trapbar deadlift is basically a squat with the bar in your hands, with some differences. MMA fighters actually like this lift too.
On the 1g/kg thing you don't need more, seeing as you dont actually use most of the protein as building blocks for the muscles (the idea being the more you take in, the more building blocks you would have). This isn't the case when you look at the math, as this study proves: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2917954.
Basically by upping the testosterone, Sonnen style, made the subjects gains muscle, while adding in protein had no or little bearing on this. Testosterone is creating the anabolic response necessary. What you need to build muscle is what your body need to uphold your daily functions and hold on to your musclemass. Lets set this at 70 for a 185 pound male. Add a little for the tissue trauma from training. About 75. A human muscles has approximately 20% protein. So 90-100g for a pound. So to add two pounds of muscle pr month, you will need a bout 200 grams of protein extra which comes out to about 7 a day.
The reason their sometimes can be an anabolic response at higher doses, is due to the amino acid profile. You might get certain types of amino acids that response well in the muscle to hit the right switches so to speak to create a better anabolic response, as their is thousands of different amino acids, and it's not always you will get exactly what you need in a set number/type of protein. Leusine/Lysine for instance being big ones. However there is a finite amount of these switches so to speak - which means that excess protein will be converted into glucose (carbs) thus be totally pointless to consume.
Sorry for the wall of text.

[mirinquads]

Do you squat low bar or highbar Nunya?

[NunyaBidness]

Do you squat low bar or highbar Nunya?

Low bar.

I did Zerchers on my last session. Went pretty well with low weight. Going to try it again tonight. No pain from it, but I don't get pain from that weight anyway, so that could be a factor. Definitely felt it in my abs once I got over 100 pounds. Squatted to parallel but not below as the bar would hit my thighs. Not sure if I should stop there or if I should make a conscious effort to hold the bar up higher with my arms, but that seems like it would get exhausting quick.

The gym I go to occasionally has a Zercher harness, might give that a shot and buy it if I like it.

I did buy a trap bar based on advice ITT, should be here tomorrow.

[mirinquads]

You might try highbar, it puts the load on top of the spine, thus its in a more natural position, and works the quads better. Though it's harder to get the form down in my opinion. Might be worse for your condition, but it was much better for me personally.

[NunyaBidness]

You might try highbar, it puts the load on top of the spine, thus its in a more natural position, and works the quads better. Though it's harder to get the form down in my opinion. Might be worse for your condition, but it was much better for me personally.

It's actually much worse for my condition as the bar rests on the cervical vertebrae which is very bad for me. Most of my condition is very unlike typical spinal problems, in fact, the front squat which usually is recommended for people with back pain is excruciating to me.

Second session of Zerchers last night, went well, although my elbows aren't enjoying it, so much harder though, I'm doing about 2/3rds of the weight I was doing with back squats and feel pretty wrecked at the end. At this point thinking about alternating Zerchers 5x5 with Back squats 3x12 on each session.

[NunyaBidness]

Got my trap bar in today, through Amazon. Hilariously it was packaged like how'd you'd wrap it as a present if you were trying to be funny. All sorts of little pieces of cardboard. Should've taken a picture. UPS guy had to deliver 4 tires as well, I don't think he likes me very much right now.

Anyway, did trap bar deadlifts, felt like I was doing them right, but I felt it all in my quads, not in my glutes and hams like regular deadlifts. Kind of just felt like a squat. Is that normal or is my technique off?

Also used it for Overhead Presses, man, that was great. I had a small problem with shoulder impingement doing normal presses, felt nothing at all with this thing, and it was a little tougher to balance which I think will be good for my core.

[mirinquads]

No, correct techinque, as trap bar deadlift is basically a squat with the bar in a different position pretty much, not loading the spine at all. Good to hear that shit is working for you, might try some trap bar lifts today, they are pretty fun. OHP with it? That sounds pretty interesting, how do you get it into position?

[NunyaBidness]

No, correct techinque, as trap bar deadlift is basically a squat with the bar in a different position pretty much, not loading the spine at all. Good to hear that shit is working for you, might try some trap bar lifts today, they are pretty fun. OHP with it? That sounds pretty interesting, how do you get it into position?

It fits on my cage perfectly, thought it was going to be too short, but it works fine.

Woke up with some DOMS in my hammies, so it must've hit them more than I expected.

[NunyaBidness]

Constructive criticism on my form please?

[marzwoody]

Bump

[mirinquads]

Less see some progress pictures Marzwood.

[Vaughany]

Constructive criticism on my form please?

Lmao only just seen this

[mirinquads]

^Straight beastin'

[marzwoody]

No progress bro, i wish lifting weights was more fun

[Bumdeal]

I've been getting back into it lately. Spotify helps in the gym.

[areallycoolguy]

I personally suffer from a bad sort of hypermobility that also penetrates with my joints quite a lot, the reason i started lifting as well. You definitely need to experiment and find out what works for you, with a condition like that. Some exercises you're better off not doing or modifying for your needs. I wouldnt recommend those one legged squats for instance. You might have to totally forgo the squat, or change to high rep version, as the squat puts a heavy load on the spine in an unnatural position. In your case you might replace them with leg press and lunges with dumbells, as this will work your legs well without a heavy load on top of the spine. For strengthening spine rectors I would do deadlifts instead, as this is a much more natural way to train the spine. The human spine wasn't designed to have a huge load on top of it. But i have forgone several exercises that just didn't work with my bodies limitations.

i have the same sort of problem. never really been in shape too and i habitually over train when i get in the routine. for me, best thing has always been basic boxing work outs, going to a good traditional gym and doing the 2 hrs sessions i warm up and cool down well.

i think its best to be incremental whatever you do, and concentrate on what your needs are, not how you wanna look but moreso how you wanna feel.

the worst thing is to constantly be picking up injuries too, beyond frustrating.

[areallycoolguy]

No progress bro, i wish lifting weights was more fun

whats your stretching regimen