YouWager.com Player steals my $8,000; Seems to Have Used BetOnStars Account Info

[Dark Horse]

Youwager is one of those shortsighted companies that looks at the short term profit only.
If this was my company I'd give you the money immediately. One satisfied customer tells a hundred, who tell a hundred. (I love Canbet) Mistake? Take the f*cking responsibility as a company. They have no idea how much revenue and trust they have lost because of this. Idiots. Avoid, avoid, avoid.

[marc]

Here is a good analogy.

Lets say thomas stole Jason's car and sold it to Nate for a couple of hundred dollars. Jason discovers that Nate has his car, and ask for it back. Nate's basic response "sorry, but you should have done a better job protecting your car, now it's mine." The fact that it's stolen property doens't seem to bother Nate.

The crazy thing about Youwager's stance is that they feel that by giving Jason his money back, that somehow they are "losing" money. All that happened was that Thomas took Jason's maney and placed some wagers with it. Had Thomas won, there would ne no expectation for youwager to honor those wagers. Youwager had zero risk. Thomas wins, wagers are voided, Thomas loses Youwager keeps the money. That in and of itself is a scam.

If Thomas had transffered to his account, and managed to get a ** payout before Jason knew what happened. Or if Thomas had lost all the money in the pokerroom and youwager wasn't able to get the money back, then I could understand Youwager and Jason having to fight over how much responsibility does each party have.

But in this case, the money basically never left youwager. Once Jason was able to demonstrate to youwager that he doens't know Thomas, and that he was a victim, youwager should have just voided the wagers. Jason was a cusotmer in good standing. He gave them a lot of action. This issue goes well beyond the books security. It's issues like this that demonstrate the true colors of the people who run the book.

Just as a reminder, $7500 was stolen from my sports.com account. A book thats owned by SPortingbet who is notorious for awful cusomter service. And yet, they returned my money. One would think that if a place like SPortingbet would step up to the plate and return the money, surely a book like Youwager would too.

[Dark Horse]

Because of this story I decided to withdraw my money. Guess what. Now they want 8% of my deposit for what is supposed to be a free Neteller withdrawal. lol. Doubled from yesterday. Nate from youwager being so creative. I can't believe these folks.

[marc]

I just had a very nice conversation with Nate from youwager.

He made a couple of points
1) Had the wagers Thomas made (by the way, Thomas is his real name) won, Youwager would have paid out the wagers. They would have had to sort out who to give the winnings too, but they would have paid out the winnings. That is why they feel they should be entitled to keep the money from the wagers.

2) Like most sportsbooks, they constanly get customers who try to scir account that they didn't make. 9 out of 10 times a simple ip check shows that the wagers were made from their computer. So if they give Jason the money back, it might open a pandora's box.

3) with regards to security, it's really trying to find the right balance between providing security to players while at the same time trying to accomodate players needs.

4) Some security features that players might want added might have to come from the software providers. Depneding on the software sportsbooks use, there may be limitations on what they can do.

I certainlly understand Youwager's position that no matter what they do, thier decision could come back to haunt them. The main problem is tahathere is no way a player can prove they din't place a particular wager. There is no way one player can prove they don't know another player. Now the reverse is true. It can be demonstrated that two people do know each other. It can be proved that a wager was made on someones computer. So what do we do in those cases where it can't be proven one way or another whether transactions made in the account were authorized or not. It's going to be a subjective test. Now the sportsbook may not want to be in the unenviable position of saying to one player we believe you, so we will gve you your money back, while saying to another player, sorry, but we don't believe you so you get nothing. one option would be to let a 3rd party arbitrate. That way if a book believes 1 players story but not anothers, it makes it easier to return the funds. Because if they return the funds it will have been the result of an arbitration agreement as opposed to a subjective decison that they made. It gives all players a chance to at leats be heard. Another middle ground is to return the funds to a player in the form of a bonus. When royal bailed out a bunch of players acouple of years ago, it wasn't because they had a responsibility to, but they chose to. Same thing here. If a book believes that one of thier players was scammed, they could say look " we don't feel responsible, but we feel bad about what happened, so here is what we can do for you..." The reality of life is that you can't make a policy that will cover every situation, sometimes you just have to take care of things on a case by case basis.

In terms of security, Youwager is very good about respectings players privacy. The result of that is what some would term lax security in certain areas. For quite a few players, their privacy concerns outweigh potential security concerns, so it is a difficult balancing act. I definitley understand where Youwager is coming from. Unfortuantely some of the ideas that were brought up here are not as easy to implement as we might think.

Some of the security enhancements really need to come from softwaremakers like IQL and ASI. But as we all know, thye rarely if ever discuss with players what enhancements we would like to see. Almost all thier feedback come from the sportsbooks. If we want better security we may need to press these software makers.

The GOOD NEWS is that Thomas called Nate, and Nate was kind enbough to get me on the call. Thomas indicated that he wants to pay Jason back. According to Thomas, a friend of his was acting as an agent for Betonstars. And he claimed that this friend conned him into thiinking that Jason ws his cousin who he wokred with, and that he could take the money that was in Jaosn's account as payment for what was owed to him. My inpression from speaking to thomas is that he definitely wants to pay Jason back and pout this all behind him. There was no reason for him to contact Nate unless he was sincere in his desire to pay Jason back. If Thomas comes through Jason should have his money by next week.

[natrass]

OK, I am lost now. I have to disagree a bit here I think.

The questions are :

Did the book fail to ensure the safety of the players funds? Yes

Is it their duty to do so? Yes

Was the player even involved in the whole charade? No.

So, how has it ended up that the book is somehow in an understandable situtation and "hopefully" something can be done for him as a concession?

Its crazy. The book messed up big time ... well, massive time really.

Here's a rule for their terms and conditions :

Rule 1.

The Book will not pay out a players account balance to simply anyone who phones up and says they want the money.

That would be a reasonable outcome.

They must refund the player. This is the book who has fouled up 100%.

[marc]

Natrass,

Many sportsbooks require players to give them thier ture names and thier real addresses and phone nukbers. SOme boks also require a copy of your drivers license prior to cash out. WHat I myself sisn't even fully realize is that youwager takes a very different approach. They recognize the fact that many people for various reasons don't want to give out thier real name. A lot of big players don't want money trails. Youwagers approach has been not to ask too many questions, and thier long time players sem to appreicate that. In fact if I were to call and ask for a check to be made out to mickey mouse, they might do that for me. That obviously creates a security concern. Truth be told, Thomas could have called, and simply requested that a ** be sent to him. So 99.9% of the time, money gets transffered to someone else without a problem. What happens on those occasions when there is a problem.

WHen it comes to who bears responsibility, Youwagers position is that their clerks didn't do anything wrong by approving the transfers. WHile the transfers may seem odd to us, and while we may feel flags should have been raised, apparently those types of requests aren't too uncommon. SInce the person who called had all of Jason's info, the clerks didn't think anything of it, and folowe procedure. What youwager did offer, was full access to their database, and if anyone could show where on of thoier clerks might have given out Jason's info, then they would take responsibility and return Jason's money. But thier database onlly goes back so far. SO the findings aren't conclusive.

I think thought we need to seperate out responsibility and whether Jason should get his money back. In truth, if you wnat to ask who is responsible, first and for most it is Betonstars. THere is virtually no doubt that it was on of their clerks who gave out Jason's info. Secondly there is Thomas and his frined Johnny who used that info. Then there is Jason for making the common mistake of using the same password. Lastly Youwager where liekly on of thier clerks gave out Jason's account ifo to somone posing as Jason who knew Jason's password.

I don't think Youwager did anything terribly worng. I think this is something that could have happened at a lot of places. I understand thier position that if they return the money to Jason, what prevents players from constanly scamming them by claiming that someone else placed the wager. But I don't thinkt hat concern is as grave as they belive. This is a fairly unique situation. Onlike most cases where victims have no idea who stole thier money or who placed the wagers, in this case we do know. We have the players name, address, phone number and admission that he took the money and placed the wager. So youwagers retort of course is where is the proof that Jason and Thomas aren't working together. Well what makes this even more unique is that you have someone who took the time to file a police report. There is simply no way that would happen if the two of them were buddies. In my mind, I think it's clear that only someone who is a true victim would have gone a sfar as Jason did. I don't believe that Youwager would risk opening the floodgates by returning Jaosn's money. ANd I don't returning the funds is in any way in admission of culpability. I think they could simply state, Jason proved beyond a reaosnable doubt, taht he was a victim of thievery, and so we are returning the stolen funds.

I think we are all hopeful that Thomas will come through, and reimburse JAson for the money he took. IF he doesn't or is unable too, it would be really nice is Betonstars would step up to the plate. Whereas Youwager seemd very eager to egt to the bottom of this, Stars has shown an alomost total lack of interest. And stars is out 15k. One would think they would want to get to the bottom of this as well.

[slacker00]

Interesting explanation, Marc. One caveat, though. Youwager is dealing with the general public. Not everyone is going to be all cloak and dagger requesting a transfer to Micky Mouse. There should be an extremely simple way of requesting a "higher security account" somehow, preferably done at signup with a simple checkbox.

This goes beyond YouWager. I'd prefer when I sign up at ANY sportsbook, to request that my funds cannot be transferred to any kind of online casino they might have. I'd also request that my funds cannot be tranferred to anywhere else except to my own Neteller. I wonder if I called up a sportsbook if they could even put these kind of restrictions on my account, per my request. Something to think about. Maybe SBR should have a moratorium on security dealing with these kinds of issues. Maybe this could be the next "email test" that SBR sends out, asking various security questions like these.

[marc]

Slacker00,

I agree with you 100%. When you first sign up at a book, , most players don't go thinking "gee, they have a casino, that's a security risk. Theres a poker room, thats another security risk, they allow buddy transfers - got to watch out for that..." It would be great if they could ask you right off the bat what features do you wnat or don't want.

I knwo somew sportsbooks like sportingbet sites are unable to turn off the casino features. I alos know from dealing with SPOrtingbet that notes are sometmes only good when there is a specific field they could put the note into. But when all the notes get jumbled together, clerks often have a hard time finding the relevent notes. Just as a qucik example. SOme of the accounts I have are in my wifes name. SPortingbet used to allow you to to provide them a list of Authorized users. So my wife called and said that I could use her account, and they made a note of it. But in thier system, there actually is no field where they can insert the names of addiotnal users. All they could do is just write the information down in some generic note section. But over the course of time, that note would get buried by other notes. So each time I would call it would get harder and harder for the lcerks to find the note saying I could use the account.

It would be great if we could get some people from IQL and ASI in here to discuss the features that we as players want. I think your idea is a great one but might be something that really needs to be built into the platform.

[natrass]

Ironically marc I had an experience with expekt just today.

I had opened an account but couldnt get back in.

I emailed and said this. I got the reply that wasnt my user name XXXX but with two other numbers were added to the end. And she confirmed this account had my email address. WTF??? I queried this and she said someone may have altered it!!??

Anyway, she then says shes been into my account and its working fine with the password XXXX (and she says my password). And I should go in and change the password.

However, this happened (Im still confused) what really jumps out is that the clerk sees my password (thereby totally annulling any secure passord facility) and she names it in an email.

As to this case, the guy Thomas is the thief and now the polis are onto him hes obviously concerned. He should pay first off.

Second off, I agree with slacker, if any book gives me all the wiseguy options and buddy transfers and stuff ... it defies security. You should have to opt into that stuff not opt out (even if you could).

Totally bizarre. I think youwagers response is poor. This is the equivalent of saying 'we did nothing wrong. We wont be changing anything about our system" ... which of course is plain stupidity. They need to wake up.

[marc]

Natrass,

It truly is amzing how lax security is. YOuwager is currently in the porcess of making some changes. But again, the porblem is in the short term you have some players that wnat the wiseguys features with the low security, and other players who would cperfer no wiseguy featyures and high security. But the softare they use doesn't lend itself to provide both options, so they need to find some middle ground. Likely whatever they choose will cost them some clients.

Just as a reminder, if the password you gave to Epxekt is the same password you are using elsewhere, I would change all your passwords. I know Expekts stance on account break ins, is that if you a file a police report, they will give any info requested of them to the police, but they won't give any info to the player. Their concern is that if they were to give you the ip address of the person who logged into your account, you might track them down and kill them, and then Expekt might be held liable to a certian degree.

[natrass]

It just gets madder and madder doesnt it?

I still think if the wiseguy options are made available then it is a de facto breach of security and, therefore, they are holding players funds without having adequate security measures.

Yeah, thanks, all my passwords are truly random with a sliver of logic running between them that only I know.

[MrX]

...all my passwords are truly random with a sliver of logic

I'm pretty sure this is paradoxical. Maybe I can get a confirmation from Ganchrow?

[natrass]

I'm pretty sure this is paradoxical. Maybe I can get a confirmation from Ganchrow?

Actually thats true in the literal world ... doesnt hold up if you dont live there though....

[JBC77]

According to MW this guy is up to his old tricks again. His mom too.

[I.R.B]

WOW very intresting... Did jason get his $ back?

[charto911]

I log into my YouWager account Saturday night, and see a 0 balance.

I call First Fidelity and speak to Nate (and some assistants) who tell me that earlier that day the $7,700 was transferred to another YouWager player named Thomas Kendzlik.
After researching the account with Nate, First Fidelity tells me that the call for the transfer came from a phone #:
(412) 221-7392 – the same phone # as the one on Tomas Kendzlik’s account.
The IP address that this all came from was 67.186.139.214 – also in Pennsylvania and the one that was used by Thomas Kendzlik.

The player gets on a 3 way call and tells me and Nate that I am his agent from BetOnStars. I am dumbfounded by the whole situation.

I call BetonStars. They tell me that I stiffed them for $8,000 as an agent, and I have come to learn that the owner of BetonStars referred to me in this forum.

After looking at this further, BetonStars gave me the IP address from which they had dealt with “me” as an agent --
IT MATCHES the account at First Fidelity registered to this person Thomas Kendzlik.
BetonStars then also told me that then told me that when they sent “me” money, they were told to send it ** to the name Thomas Kendzlik in Pennsylvania.

Coincidentally, Bill Dozer has spoken to the person who owns the email address of the First Fidelity account – BadGuy1122. Bill yesterday listened to tapes of the conversations between the person posing as me to BetonStars and BetonStars representatives. Bill confirmed that the person posing as me as an agent for BetonStars was the same person that Bill spoke to, Thomas Kendzlik.

As it stands now I hope to convince First Fidelity that I am a victim and their transfer system facilitated an $8,000 theft from my account.

I should note that although I have no idea how this person knew I had a First Fidelity account and how he gained my account ID there, I do know that my password was the same as my BetonStars password, and therefore unsecure.
I advise all players to use a unique password for each sportsbook account immediately.

PS:
As if this story wasn’t strange enough, we just found out that the only Thomas Kendzlic (spelled with a c at the end of the name and not a k) in Pennsylvania is showing as deceased in 1998, which only perpetuates the idea that this individual specializes in ID theft.

what ever ended up happening with this? I had some serious nightmares and problems with youwager.com and thus they got a negative review.

[navyhawk]

wow that whole thing made my head hurt. BOL OP

[frankthetank]

I agree. a lot of reading. I would like to know what ended up happening for sure.

[shaunovery]

Sorry to hear that

[rumple]

Who cares it happened 4 years ago.

[me-first]

I love spending 10 minutes reading a thread only to find out it was started 5 years ago..(lol)

[Kaka]

haha, me too

[gauchojake]

If anyone is still interested in talking to this guy, go here :

http://www.donkdown.com/forum/badguy23-confirmed-scum-bag-want-make-t78439.html

[Bootman215]

I wouldn't be surprised if Youwager played a major part. They are thiefs and rob me of $1,500 and my buddy got stiiffed for $2,700 from Youwager,

[firedawg]

I wouldn't be surprised if Youwager played a major part. They are thiefs and rob me of $1,500 and my buddy got stiiffed for $2,700 from Youwager,

Bull crap....

[frostno98]

Cashing out tomorrow, tell you how it goes.

[C.S.]

Wow, what a blast from the past. Oh, and bootman you should file a complaint that's what SBR is for

[Justin7]

If you have an issue with Youwager, file a complaint. They work very well with SBR.

[jackkkk2009]

Fortunately, I still haven't made any deposits into my YW account..

[mtneer1212]

Sorry Bootman -- there has to be more to the story than that.......... am I am sure there will be a part of the story that involves you multi-accounting, or chargingback someone...... they all do.

[tommygun]

shady book to say the least

[robertg]

I knew it was an old post, when I saw JC popped in.......way back when WSEX was a reputable book.