[milwaukee mike]

Just report your winnings.

I just took a $5000 payout from BETDSI to COINBASE (bitcoin). Took that money at Coinbase and turned it into COINBASE CASH ACCOUNT and then transferred it directly into my CHASE BANK account.

If I need to claim it as income on my taxes I will. I will run that by my tax accountant.

that's not the problem

the problem is that if you withdraw $5000 10x... and deposit $5000 10x.... the $50,000 is "winnings" and the other $50,000 is "losses"... the winnings are taxed and there is nowhere to deduct the losses anymore

so you broke even and still owe $20,000 in taxes

[MinnesotaFats]

that's not the problem

the problem is that if you withdraw $5000 10x... and deposit $5000 10x.... the $50,000 is "winnings" and the other $50,000 is "losses"... the winnings are taxed and there is nowhere to deduct the losses anymore

so you broke even and still owe $20,000 in taxes

Exactly.

And each transaction you don't claim is a separate federal crime.

There's no way to afford to defend it, so you have to pay it.

It's IRS enforcement by the DOJ (not the IRS) that's what all you ignorant folk are missing.

You just let the DOJ bypass the Bill of Rights by allowing warrantless searches.

[Brock Landers]

that's not the problem

the problem is that if you withdraw $5000 10x... and deposit $5000 10x.... the $50,000 is "winnings" and the other $50,000 is "losses"... the winnings are taxed and there is nowhere to deduct the losses anymore

so you broke even and still owe $20,000 in taxes

Never paid a penny in taxes for Bitcoin or anything offshore

Not a Penny in 25+ years

[Mugsy777]

Guy's , please help me , you are telling me that let's say I get $80,000 in payouts from books in 2022 from paypal , but I have $130,000 in losses that I sent to books from paypal , I can't deduct the losses? Help!

[d2bets]

Technically you are supposed to report every dollar you get to the irs. So if your friend gives you 20 and you don’t give it back, that’s supposed to get reported. Of course, no one does. Now that a lot is done electronically this is their way of getting their piece of anything they can.

False. You only report *income*. If someone gives you a gift, you do not need to report. Only the giver has to report and only if it's over $16k for the year.

[KVB]

that's not the problem

the problem is that if you withdraw $5000 10x... and deposit $5000 10x.... the $50,000 is "winnings" and the other $50,000 is "losses"... the winnings are taxed and there is nowhere to deduct the losses anymore

so you broke even and still owe $20,000 in taxes

Why is there nowhere to deduct losses anymore?

Of course there is, no matter how you file.

If you're a rec, use Schedule A on the 1040. Your winnings are "other income" and losses deducted on Schedule A.

If you are a pro, use Schedule C.

It's that simple.

Forget deposits and withdrawals. Use your actual betting activity.

[KVB]

Guy's , please help me , you are telling me that let's say I get $80,000 in payouts from books in 2022 from paypal , but I have $130,000 in losses that I sent to books from paypal , I can't deduct the losses? Help!

Don't worry about the paypal deposit and withdrawal activity, it doesn't matter.

Just worry about your betting activity, in detail, and make sure the numbers add up.

Also, remember you can't deduct more than you win in losses and there is no carryover. If you won 80 and lost 130, you just zero out.

[Mugsy777]

Thanks KVP

[MinnesotaFats]

Guy's , please help me , you are telling me that let's say I get $80,000 in payouts from books in 2022 from paypal , but I have $130,000 in losses that I sent to books from paypal , I can't deduct the losses? Help!

You can try, obviously...and only if you itemize your deductions.

But what figure in transactions is going to trigger a red flag for Revenue Officials?

They literally revoke your passport for $50k in back taxes now.

That's literally the difference in selling a $500k business (which is what a small liquor store w NO inventory might go for) and declaring part of the sale a capital gain versus an asset sale.

Now, the IRS would mess around w enforcement beyond a passport revocation. They'd pressure you to pay by taking away rights.

Now here, the same thing. Once that red flag is triggered, they imput the tax liability and its up to you to go to tax court and fight it. The costs alone almost require you to consent and pay, add on federal tax evasion charges tied to gambling winnings on, say, 12 monthly withdrawals over the course of the year, and big government has the individual by the balls. And your transactions towards gambling aren't direct, they are to a 3rd party- Coinbase or such, from there they become part of an illegal activity if offshore, and thus no, not deductible. Only your winnings are taxable in that example.

Those who defend this law as a nothing-burger has never had to deal w the Feds in court...I can guarantee that. They do not know what they are talking about and have zero experience in trying to unwind a wrong by the Federal government.

[KVB]

From a Schedule C perspective, a pro filer perspective, records are essential and records are everything.

Even in audit, the existence of extensive records will show you are actually serious at filing as a pro.

Nothing is more important and in this landscape, if you are deducting losses, it is essential you show that those losses occurred.

[KVB]

Don't worry about the paypal deposit and withdrawal activity, it doesn't matter...

Also, I say this above because you are always safe with betting records, but I suppose if the paypal acitvity is very clean, IRS just might only need those records.

It's hard to tell what they might accept and not. And maybe it only matters if an audit is triggered.

Hard to tell just where the IRS is going with all of this when it comes to gamblers.

It's much easier to see where they are headed with small businesses.

[d2bets]

that's not the problem

the problem is that if you withdraw $5000 10x... and deposit $5000 10x.... the $50,000 is "winnings" and the other $50,000 is "losses"... the winnings are taxed and there is nowhere to deduct the losses anymore

so you broke even and still owe $20,000 in taxes

Ummm, no, that's not how it works. If it was, does that mean you don't need to report anything if you don't withdraw? Just keep it in the book and it's not income until you withdraw? Withdrawing is not what makes it income. Winning is what makes it income.

[stevenash]

It's not warrantless surveillance.

LMAOOOOOOOOOO

Read the article if you need it spelled out in a simple form.

We're talking about IRS reporting requirtements for third party vendors. Understand that there were already requirements, and now they have changed.

While this kind of sucks, you are clearly blowing it way out of proportion.

Seriously, man. All they are saying is that a form will be sent so it's time to start keeping records of the smaller transactions that involve "goods and services" and does not change anything for the businessman, who was already required to report these transactions, who does keep records.

Unless said businessman was treating electronic payments as if they were under the table cash.

That would make said businessman a fukkin idiot, lol.

Cash will once again become king.

Great post.
When was cash never king.

Money doesn't talk it swears obscenities.

[KVB]

Ummm, no, that's not how it works. If it was, does that mean you don't need to report anything if you don't withdraw? Just keep it in the book and it's not income until you withdraw? Withdrawing is not what makes it income. Winning is what makes it income.

Yeah, so much focus on deposits and withdrawals.

Nothing has changed here for anyone itemizing their gambling.

In fact, nothing has changed here for any business that keeps it's receipts and didn't view Venmo and Paypal as under the table cash.

[MinnesotaFats]

Well the IRS isn't going anywhere if your losses are from a 3rd party offshore account. Can't deduct that... could have at least tried in the past w a S Corp or LLC account but now that's reviewable w out a warrant and probably money laundering if not worse....the sky's the limit w the amount of legal weapons we just handed the DOJ

[milwaukee mike]

Why is there nowhere to deduct losses anymore?

Of course there is, no matter how you file.

If you're a rec, use Schedule A on the 1040. Your winnings are "other income" and losses deducted on Schedule A.

If you are a pro, use Schedule C.

It's that simple.

Forget deposits and withdrawals. Use your actual betting activity.

yeah you're right, but the schedule a is only useful if you're over the standard deduction (25,100 married)... and no writeoff in states like wisconsin

so i should've been more clear, there is still somewhere to write it off but it's not very useful, in my example with no other deductions, for someone that's married it could still be $5-10k in taxes

and even worse, in a state like wisconsin, if you go by the letter of the law and treat every bet like a win/loss... you could have $500k in winning bets and $500k in losing bets, break even, and still owe $35k in taxes... that was my point, and like minnesota fats pointed out, for an illegal hobby the irs could disallow those deductions anyway

[d2bets]

yeah you're right, but the schedule a is only useful if you're over the standard deduction (25,100 married)... and no writeoff in states like wisconsin

so i should've been more clear, there is still somewhere to write it off but it's not very useful, in my example with no other deductions, for someone that's married it could still be $5-10k in taxes

and even worse, in a state like wisconsin, if you go by the letter of the law and treat every bet like a win/loss... you could have $500k in winning bets and $500k in losing bets, break even, and still owe $35k in taxes... that was my point, and like minnesota fats pointed out, for an illegal hobby the irs could disallow those deductions anyway

And I'll bet that nobody has ever reported that way and the state has never actually forced anyone to report that way. I get what you're saying, but in reality that's not really an issue.

[KVB]

Well the IRS isn't going anywhere if your losses are from a 3rd party offshore account. Can't deduct that... could have at least tried in the past w a S Corp or LLC account but now that's reviewable w out a warrant and probably money laundering if not worse....the sky's the limit w the amount of legal weapons we just handed the DOJ

Minny, please stop.

Have you ever put a single gambling item on a tax form?

Ever?

At this point, you are aboslutely spreading misinformation.

100%

The risks of offshore gambling do not in any way change with this law.

As I said before, this law doesn't change anything.

Don't worry Mike, what's right is right and you will be able to answer, with deductions, any gambling income, no matter who paid it to you, or what vendor.

Let's not twist this guys. It's the business that's getting reported to the IRS.

It's the small business that takes Venmo and Paypal payments that is on the hook here.

Be very very careful trying to make the jump from businesses taking payment for goods and services to individuals getting paid through these third party vendors.

Such a jump is not warranted here, yet.

[KVB]

I repeat...

...Be very very careful trying to make the jump from businesses taking payment for goods and services to individuals getting paid through these third party vendors.

Such a jump is not warranted here, yet.

[TheMoneyShot]

Everyone should just keep their eyes open for the tax forms in the mail. See who are the idiot companies ratting you out. Gemini has been unbelievably good to me.

[JIBBBY]

This thread is starting to spook me.

So I guess if you want to avoid the IRS red flag hassles just make $500 payouts/US banking transfers only and don't go above that amount.

That is if the IRS is only tagging $600 or more on all transfers.

[KVB]

Guys, the previous reporting requirements, that these third party vendors were required to send to the IRS was a Gross income of $20K or 200 transactions.

The threshold is now $600.

If you aren't a business offering "goods and services" for payment through one of these vendors, then these vendors will not report your income transaction.

Do you get it?

If you aren't a business, then this law is not applying to you. Venmo says to the IRS that XYZ, Inc. recieved payment for something.

How do you think this applies to gamblers?

If you send money offshore, more than $600, then you think Venmo will be required to send the IRS a report so that the offshore book won't cheat on it's taxes?

Again guys, don't twist this. If you aren't a busness paying taxes to the US, then it really doesn't apply to you.

Venmo and Paypal will distinguish between personal and business accounts.

When I was talking the relationship with gamblers earlier in the thread, like Gold said, we're talking about onshore activity.

[Brock Landers]

KVB gets it

The rest want to make a molehill out of it

[TheMoneyShot]

What cracks me up... all these young women making tips from men throwing them money through venmo and all these other cashapps... you mean they'll have to pay taxes on all of this??? Aren't they in for a rude awakening. lol

[d2bets]

Everyone should just keep their eyes open for the tax forms in the mail. See who are the idiot companies ratting you out. Gemini has been unbelievably good to me.

No sportsbooks are sending them out. Only for fantasy. This may change at some time in the future - I'll be surprised if it doesn't - but for now that is how it is.

[KVB]

yeah you're right, but the schedule a is only useful if you're over the standard deduction (25,100 married)... and no writeoff in states like wisconsin

so i should've been more clear, there is still somewhere to write it off but it's not very useful, in my example with no other deductions, for someone that's married it could still be $5-10k in taxes

and even worse, in a state like wisconsin, if you go by the letter of the law and treat every bet like a win/loss... you could have $500k in winning bets and $500k in losing bets, break even, and still owe $35k in taxes... that was my point, and like minnesota fats pointed out, for an illegal hobby the irs could disallow those deductions anyway

Welcome to the world of hairy ass page after page of itemized deductions.

No more easy taxes. You want to claim stuff, the process gets thicker.

There are no in "my example with no other deductions" here. That's the other world. You can see which one is worth it, you just said it yourself, so you have to make a choice. Maybe there's more you can do, definitely talk to someone local.

There are no degrees of deductions in this world though, there either are or aren't deductions.

It will be interesting to see how this develops for gamblers, but it's pretty safe at this point to say that individuals getting paid by casinos probably won't be looked at through Paypal. It's just another way to pay.

The Casino/Book/Customer tax relationship really isn't interrupted here, not for individuals.

[MinnesotaFats]

The IRS defines a commercial transaction as any act conducted for the purpose or intent of making a profit.

GAMBLING is a commercial transaction guys lol

Doesn't matter if you're friends or a business. If you don't declare it now, you're committing fraud.

GAMBLING transactions are commercial for tax purposes and big brother is gonna know, your exes divorce lawyer is gonna know, your child support officer is gonna know how much discretionary income you gamble with and it didn't even take a warrant.

[KVB]

No sportsbooks are sending them out. Only for fantasy. This may change at some time in the future - I'll be surprised if it doesn't - but for now that is how it is.

Yeah, I keep saying we'll see how some of this is treated but even though they have you on a sportsbook app it really isn't different than a casino players card.

Fantasy was a different animal, precedinglegalized sportsbetting.

But books and casinos have always been intertwined as "gambling" and the record keeping and things the IRS accepts really hasn't changed.

I feel like you are talking about activity reports, or deposit/withdrawal reports.

Surely CTR's are being sent, but surely you have control of the account to avoid that.

Are they compelled to submit anything else?

[KVB]

The IRS defines a commercial transaction as any act conducted for the purpose or intent of making a profit.

GAMBLING is a commercial transaction guys lol

Doesn't matter if you're friends or a business. If you don't declare it now, you're committing fraud...

This has never changed.

But you are not understanding the Venmo and Paypal requirements here. You are not understanding to whom it applies.

There is no new law here, just a new threshold.

Nothing has changed Minny, not the target of the law, not the spirit of the law, none of it.

[KVB]

...big brother is gonna know, your exes divorce lawyer is gonna know, your child support officer is gonna know how much discretionary income you gamble with and it didn't even take a warrant.

Sadly, this is true.

But honestly, not from the laws you think, lol.

Nobody forced you to use Venmo, and nobody forced you to use paypal.

But they will still know, with readily available unprotected information. You are 100% correct.

They will know, and it won't take a warrant.

[7deuceoff$uit]

Is there a link for these new laws, that explains this stuff clearly? Seems to be a lot of conflicting input on here as to how this $600 rule will be applied. Is it strictly for people who use venmo/paypal for goods and services (business), or does the rule apply to personal accounts? If it is a personal account, does the $600 rule apply for the transaction amount Person A sends to Person B, or is it a combined total between the two individuals? Or is this strictly what you deposit from your venmo account to your bank account?

[Four33]

Fear mongering yawn

[milwaukee mike]

Welcome to the world of hairy ass page after page of itemized deductions.

No more easy taxes. You want to claim stuff, the process gets thicker.

There are no in "my example with no other deductions" here. That's the other world. You can see which one is worth it, you just said it yourself, so you have to make a choice. Maybe there's more you can do, definitely talk to someone local.

There are no degrees of deductions in this world though, there either are or aren't deductions.

It will be interesting to see how this develops for gamblers, but it's pretty safe at this point to say that individuals getting paid by casinos probably won't be looked at through Paypal. It's just another way to pay.

The Casino/Book/Customer tax relationship really isn't interrupted here, not for individuals.

that's why i got out of the business! all the simplification that was done is now reversed, with stimulus payments, advance child credit payments, etc etc

[swordsandtequila]

Is there a link for these new laws, that explains this stuff clearly? Seems to be a lot of conflicting input on here as to how this $600 rule will be applied. Is it strictly for people who use venmo/paypal for goods and services (business), or does the rule apply to personal accounts? If it is a personal account, does the $600 rule apply for the transaction amount Person A sends to Person B, or is it a combined total between the two individuals? Or is this strictly what you deposit from your venmo account to your bank account?

Read the link in opening post

[Machba]

A. Not if you don't file taxes.
B. Not if you forget to file the 1099 form.
C. refer to A and B. Your welcome.