1. #1
    gryzonko
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    bwin/party/gamebookers blocked my funds almost 6 months

    I write to SBR, to complaint about bookmakers group bwin/partybets/gamebookers. On April/ May , my accounts of bwin partybets and gamebookers was locked without notice. The Gamebookers’ account balance was 12 744,98 EUR; the Partybets account balance was 15 621,25 EUR; bwin account balance was 41 218 PLN (+/- 10 000 eur0). I have called the support and the support informed me that is routine procedure of account verification and asked me to send a copy of some documents (bank statement, copy of a latest Utility bill, copy of a Self-certified government issued photo ID, my photo with visible ID). I have provided all of those documents immediately. All documents were verified positive by bookmaker, unfortunately bookmaker decided to close my accounts.
    I am sorry to inform you that Bwin/Gamebookers/Partybets continues to deny to release my funds from the accounts. The only option of money withdrawal is a transfer to bank account , method which I have never used to deposit the money . I have always used skrill and neteller to do so and I don't own a bank account.
    The reason I was given for closing the accounts was playing late bets. This is blatantly untrue - I have been bwin and gamebookers' customer for nearly 10 years - before even the companies started cooperating - and never there were any problems with my betting practices. This is no coincidence that the decision about closing of both of my accounts comes at the same time as some business decisions of Bwin.Party Digital Entertainment group and consequential shutting down many others accounts in this region of Europe. My betting was practically limited to live bets, placed in high quantities but for small stakes ( from 100 to 200 live bets per week, I can send screnshots of my bets history if SBR need it) . The win/loss ratio was in my favor and I believe that was not looked kindly upon by the Bwin.Party employees. For almost 10 years there were no complains about my conduct and I would like to present the real reasons behind my accounts closure .
    In 2011 Poland updated the rules governing mutual bets online. According to the new law, bookmakers active on Polish market had to apply for a permit issued by the Finance ministry, the servers containing customers data had to be located in Poland and the companies were required to pay taxes in Poland. The new law also forbid gambling advertisement. None of the online bookmakers met the above criteria. Part of the companies stopped providing services in Poland, others, including partybets/gamebookers/bwin provided it without the required permit. In reality the legal situation was unclear - the new law was not inline with European Union policy of free flow of services and it still remains not approved by the European Commission. From the practical point of view, the Polish authorities still didn't take any actions to enforce the new law - neither toward the foreign bookmaking companies active on Polish market or toward their Polish customers. Because of that, many customers avoids bank transfers with
    bookmakers, utilizing instead ewallets like skrill or neteller. Mid-April this year, the Bwin.Party group informed its business partners about its decision to stop any new registrations for many middle and eastern European countries, including Poland. The existing accounts could still be used. In practice, soon after that, the Bwin.Party group started blocking in large numbers the accounts which were bringing the company losses. The steps were the same in all the cases - account blockage without prior warning, very long and time consuming account verification by customer followed by account closure and limiting the money withdrawal options to using the bank accounts.According to the online gambling forums both Polish as well as English like SBR, this type of activity was wide spread and affected the winning customers of the Bwin.Party group bookmakers. Please notice, that it was not directed toward the dishonest customers breaking the bonus rules or opening multiple accounts, etc. Those new restrictions were targeted toward customers which the bookmakers didn't suspect of breaking the rules. More than likely the real reason behind their accounts closures was their lack of profitability to the bookmaker. The available information is pointing to new practice by Bwin.Party group - they are massively closing the unprofitable accounts from some countries.
    Of course, the bookmaker has every right to close the account of the customer if it continues to bring loses to the company. However, I am asking, are the other actions like blocking the money justified as well? The money is sometimes blocked for many weeks - in my case since April on bwin and since May on partybets/gamebookers. In addition, the account needs to be verified again, in incredibly detailed way, including some demeaning methods i.e. submitting face pictures side by side with ID. Finally limiting the withdrawal method to using a bank account, which for Polish customer is absolutely the worse possible option, very risky and possibly threating legal consequences. Of course, Bwin.Party is perfectly aware of this - large part of the customers afraid of those consequences is delaying withdrawing money to bank accounts, or even gives them up entirely.
    SBR, I am asking for your intervention. The only thing I asked Bwin.Party, repeatedly is to withdrawn my account balance to skrill or neteller. In no way I broke their rules, and the fact that I was able to beat the odds against the bookmaker and win, should not result in blocking the access to honestly won money and their withdrawal.

  2. #2
    allin1
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    if your business was honest then it is indeed very interesting... I don't know if this has to do with the fact that they don't welcome new customers from Eastern Europe anymore. I hope you made screen shots of your action there just in case this gets messy.

    I don't understand though why it is so hard for you to get a picture with you holding an id document. And I also don't understand why you don't have a bank account. This is 2013... only fraudsters don't have a bank account. And why it is risky to withdraw in a bank account in Poland?

  3. #3
    horja1
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    unfortunately SBR will not be able to help you with Bwin books ... I also had a complaint and SBR told me that the Bwin group does not cooperate with them - I was also told to send a complaint to Ecogra.

  4. #4
    pellumb341
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    I have called the support and the support informed me that is routine procedure of account verification and asked me to send a copy of some documents (bank statement, copy of a latest Utility bill, copy of a Self-certified government issued photo ID, my photo with visible ID). I have provided all of those documents immediately.
    I don't own a bank account.
    so, you don't have a bank account but you provided a bank statement ?

  5. #5
    clynnm17
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    Oh those good offshore books.. They never seem to amaze me

  6. #6
    virtozo
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    he has an overall balance of euro 35000+ and no bank account!?! Strange...just open one man, it's not so hard!!!

  7. #7
    gryzonko
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    Quote Originally Posted by pellumb341 View Post
    so, you don't have a bank account but you provided a bank statement ?
    Correct. I have decided to close my bank account in august, after I have read that bwin sent cash to some customers without notification

  8. #8
    gryzonko
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    Quote Originally Posted by allin1 View Post
    if your business was honest then it is indeed very interesting... I don't know if this has to do with the fact that they don't welcome new customers from Eastern Europe anymore. I hope you made screen shots of your action there just in case this gets messy.

    I don't understand though why it is so hard for you to get a picture with you holding an id document. And I also don't understand why you don't have a bank account. This is 2013... only fraudsters don't have a bank account. And why it is risky to withdraw in a bank account in Poland?
    If bank transfer is over 10.000 euro, polish bank should inform Internal Revenue Service. Bwin/ Party/ Gamebookers are not licenced in Poland, so bank transfer from them can starts unnessesary problems for Me. I have decided to closed a bank account, to avoid bigger problems.

  9. #9
    pellumb341
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    Quote Originally Posted by gryzonko View Post
    If bank transfer is over 10.000 euro, polish bank should inform Internal Revenue Service. Bwin/ Party/ Gamebookers are not licenced in Poland, so bank transfer from them can starts unnessesary problems for Me. I have decided to closed a bank account, to avoid bigger problems.
    I think they just want to verify your account by withdrawing via bank transfer.Just reopen your bank account,withdraw a small amount in order to verify your account and later close your bank account again,then withdraw the rest via skrill/neteller.This is exactly what i would do ,if i were you.I would inform bwin/pb/gb about what the problems withdrawing via bank transfer might bring, and in the same time i would suggest to bwin what i said as a solution.

  10. #10
    allin1
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    Quote Originally Posted by gryzonko View Post
    If bank transfer is over 10.000 euro, polish bank should inform Internal Revenue Service. Bwin/ Party/ Gamebookers are not licenced in Poland, so bank transfer from them can starts unnessesary problems for Me. I have decided to closed a bank account, to avoid bigger problems.
    The only problems it would start is that you would have to pay the taxes on your winnings. You did not brake any laws unless the money you deposited there was dirty in the first place.

    I can see why bwin have flagged you. Your reasoning is quite dubious. Anyone would have immediately sorted this out by sending the photo with them holding the id, and opened a bank account. Anyone that wants to withdraw 37.000 euros but does not want to open a bank account immediately raises some questions.

    If you are honest and clean:

    Open the bank account.

    Take the money.

    Pay the taxes.
    Go on vacation and enjoy.

  11. #11
    pellumb341
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    What i wonder most is , how in hell can a bwin/pb/gb last 10 years ?! This is a miracle...

  12. #12
    allin1
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    Quote Originally Posted by pellumb341 View Post
    What i wonder most is , how in hell can a bwin/pb/gb last 10 years ?! This is a miracle...
    You mean how did the op last 10 years with them?

  13. #13
    pellumb341
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    Quote Originally Posted by allin1 View Post
    You mean how did the op last 10 years with them?

    I mean bwin is notorious for closing winning accounts.

  14. #14
    gryzonko
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    Quote Originally Posted by allin1 View Post
    The only problems it would start is that you would have to pay the taxes on your winnings. You did not brake any laws unless the money you deposited there was dirty in the first place.

    I can see why bwin have flagged you. Your reasoning is quite dubious. Anyone would have immediately sorted this out by sending the photo with them holding the id, and opened a bank account. Anyone that wants to withdraw 37.000 euros but does not want to open a bank account immediately raises some questions.

    If you are honest and clean:

    Open the bank account.

    Take the money.

    Pay the taxes.
    Go on vacation and enjoy.
    It is no so easy like you think Allin1. Poliish law not accepts gambling in bookmakers not licenced In Poland. So, if it is no allowed - I cannot pay taxes. What can Internal Revenue Service in this situation? - in worst scenario even confiscate all my funds transferred from Bwin/party/gb. It is hard to explain but some EU countries, have really bad restisctions for foreign bookmakers.
    Photo with Id at my face I have sent immediately with rest of docs. - just want to say that bwin humiliate customers this way.

  15. #15
    brankica023
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    You as resident of EU can open bank account at any EU countries so go to some EU country and open bank account,its quite simple and send money there(go to UK you have 10cheap planes every day to UK) and you ll not have any problem with your goverment.Money ll be in your UK account and from there you can send it to your local account(open it again) and you have clean money and nothing is illegal.

  16. #16
    onemoregoal
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    paragraphs!

  17. #17
    bettingstation
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    any update?

  18. #18
    allin1
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    Yeah, make a trip to a foreign country, or maybe if banking secrecy is still in play you can go to Switzerland and set up a bank account there where bwin should wire the money. The trip won't cost much, considering you are doing it for 37K

    I still think you are a little bit paranoid about the illegality of online sports betting in Poland as a bettor, but I might be wrong.

  19. #19
    pjesnik24
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    If he goes to another country to open a bank account I am pretty sure THAT would raise some flags with Bwin.
    I would withdraw it to different bankaccounts in Poland

  20. #20
    allin1
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    Quote Originally Posted by pjesnik24 View Post
    If he goes to another country to open a bank account I am pretty sure THAT would raise some flags with Bwin.
    I would withdraw it to different bankaccounts in Poland
    If the legal issues he is talking about are real, then bwin surely already know about them. What I don't understand is why he waited since april to get this sorted out. Maybe there is more to the story.

  21. #21
    gryzonko
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    Am I paranoic in this matter? Maybe little , but now in Poland we have relly bad gambling law. Just imagine that poker is totally banned by law - no poker tournaments, no online poker, no advertisements. If you want know how stupid can be polish law in gambling matter, Please use translate to read this article :
    http://olsztyn.gazeta.pl/olsztyn/1,3...ie_zrobia.html
    If you dont translate, my short translate below ( sorry for my english)
    Some housewifes from small village like every year organised local event with charity lottery. Lottery tickets was low costs ( +/- 1 euro), lottery users can win small gitfts from sponsors, all cash from event should go for a village common room. Just nice local party. Unfortunately due polish law, lottery organiser should ask goverment for a special permission. So this event was disturbred by Internal Revenue Service agents. Agents was fully uniformed, equiped in clubs and tasers. Really awful experience for calm womens....
    Later this womens as organisers of this event was punished by high tickets from Internal Revenue Service, also all cash gained from charity lottery was confiscated. Sounds ridiculous, but unfortunately it is our reality for gambling.
    So , if I accept big transfer to bank account from bookmaker not licenced in Poland, I am asking for a troubles.

  22. #22
    allin1
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    Quote Originally Posted by gryzonko View Post
    Am I paranoic in this matter? Maybe little , but now in Poland we have relly bad gambling law. Just imagine that poker is totally banned by law - no poker tournaments, no online poker, no advertisements. If you want know how stupid can be polish law in gambling matter, Please use translate to read this article :
    http://olsztyn.gazeta.pl/olsztyn/1,3...ie_zrobia.html
    If you dont translate, my short translate below ( sorry for my english)
    Some housewifes from small village like every year organised local event with charity lottery. Lottery tickets was low costs ( +/- 1 euro), lottery users can win small gitfts from sponsors, all cash from event should go for a village common room. Just nice local party. Unfortunately due polish law, lottery organiser should ask goverment for a special permission. So this event was disturbred by Internal Revenue Service agents. Agents was fully uniformed, equiped in clubs and tasers. Really awful experience for calm womens....
    Later this womens as organisers of this event was punished by high tickets from Internal Revenue Service, also all cash gained from charity lottery was confiscated. Sounds ridiculous, but unfortunately it is our reality for gambling.
    So , if I accept big transfer to bank account from bookmaker not licenced in Poland, I am asking for a troubles.
    It is different because those people were organizing gambling events.

    It is the same in USA. Bookmaking is illegal, but normal citizens who just gamble on online offshore websites are not breaking the law and can go pay taxes on their winnings without being afraid of being charged with something.

    It could be the same in Poland. Organizing gambling operations could be illegal, but as a normal gambler, I don't think you are breaking any laws if you gamble offshore (costa rica for example) or maybe anywhere online. I am just saying that there is a big difference between bookkeeping from someone or a company as being illegal, compared to gambling being done by a normal citizen.

    Unless you can show me a law from the Polish penal code saying the gambling online is illegal for you as a normal citizen using someone else's services I still think you are just overreacting or maybe just misunderstood the situation. From what I understood the new laws are just trying to regulate the gambling industry so that involves the bookmakers, not the players (or you as a gambler). I don't think you broke any laws by gambling online. Unless this 37k euros is pocket change to you, I still don't understand why you haven't done your homework and do some research on this. You can even afford a lawyer if you can get that money back. You should have solved this issue in less than a month if you are an honest player and your action did not involve money laundering, fixed matches or any other fraud attempts.

    I did not spend too much time to research on this so I might be wrong.
    Last edited by allin1; 11-14-13 at 08:46 AM.

  23. #23
    onemoregoal
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    I havent read all this but, let me see:

    Betting online with sportsbooks is not illegal in Poland, so you have done nothing wrong in that sense.
    Sportsbooks have to pay taxes - but no sportsbooks accepted this and many chose not to deal with Poland
    BWIN kept on Polish customers, without required permit so therefore did not pay said taxes
    BWIN is offering to pay the customer through bank transfer
    Customer does not have a bank account
    Customer is worried he will have to pay taxes.

    is this right so far?

  24. #24
    pjesnik24
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    Quote Originally Posted by allin1 View Post
    If the legal issues he is talking about are real, then bwin surely already know about them. What I don't understand is why he waited since april to get this sorted out. Maybe there is more to the story.
    They probably do know and that is why they insist on bank transfers and do not allow him to withdraw to skrill or neteller. If the government is really going to confiscate the money then it is a loss/loss situation for the customer and possibly a win situation for BWIN if a customer is too afraid to withdraw the money to bank

  25. #25
    pellumb341
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoregoal View Post
    I havent read all this but, let me see:

    Betting online with sportsbooks is not illegal in Poland, so you have done nothing wrong in that sense.
    Sportsbooks have to pay taxes - but no sportsbooks accepted this and many chose not to deal with Poland
    BWIN kept on Polish customers, without required permit so therefore did not pay said taxes
    BWIN is offering to pay the customer through bank transfer
    Customer does not have a bank account
    Customer is worried he will have to pay taxes.

    is this right so far?
    From what i know about online betting in Poland ;
    --> online betting is legal, international sportsbooks must get a license in order to operate in Poland
    --> Almost all international bookies have no license to operate in Poland , but they still accept new Polish costumers.Bwin left the polish market in april/may which means they don't accept new polish accounts ,but old polish accounts are still valid
    --> If you transfer more than 10k EUR/month via bank transfer , the bank should inform the Office of Tax.IF they figure out that money are coming from betting sites (i think it is considered dirty money by law since bwin is not licensed) , they have the right to tax 75% of your money.

  26. #26
    gryzonko
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    http://www.gs24.pl/apps/pbcs.dll/art...ECIN/766705919
    Next sad story. Poker tournament disturbed by Internal Revenue Service agents. Punished were not only organisers, but also all 90 participants.

    Allin maybe you are right, maybe not - hard to say. You say do research - polish gamblers did it. Serious gamblers not use bank account even for small transfers from bookmakers. It is stupid risk, if possible is make payment by ewallets like skrill or neteller. More carefull gamblers, even use proxy to not officialy login from Poland.So far It was nice status quo, until bwin starts this dirty tricks
    I prefer to be carefull, even if my funds are frozen so many months - If I make wrong move, I wont have 2th chance

  27. #27
    onemoregoal
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    Quote Originally Posted by pellumb341 View Post
    From what i know about online betting in Poland ;
    --> online betting is legal, international sportsbooks must get a license in order to operate in Poland
    --> Almost all international bookies have no license to operate in Poland , but they still accept new Polish costumers.Bwin left the polish market in april/may which means they don't accept new polish accounts ,but old polish accounts are still valid
    --> If you transfer more than 10k EUR/month via bank transfer , the bank should inform the Office of Tax.IF they figure out that money are coming from betting sites (i think it is considered dirty money by law since bwin is not licensed) , they have the right to tax 75% of your money.
    If there was a sportsbook paying taxes to poland, would a winning player still have to pay tax as well?

  28. #28
    allin1
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    Quote Originally Posted by pellumb341 View Post
    --> If you transfer more than 10k EUR/month via bank transfer , the bank should inform the Office of Tax.IF they figure out that money are coming from betting sites (i think it is considered dirty money by law since bwin is not licensed) , they have the right to tax 75% of your money.
    holy moly. that's a lot
    Last edited by allin1; 11-14-13 at 12:22 PM.

  29. #29
    gryzonko
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoregoal View Post
    If there was a sportsbook paying taxes to poland, would a winning player still have to pay tax as well?
    No, because every bet include a taxes already. If winning from single bet is over 550 euro ( +/-) player should pay additional taxes.

  30. #30
    bigballa
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    Correct me if i am wrong but you need a bank account to fund/withdraw from skrill and neteller yes? i realize you have closed your bank account so i understand how you funded it,but what are you going to do if they agree to send the money to skrill/neteller?? Just log in from time to time and have a look at it sat there?

  31. #31
    TennisProFrance
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    Nope, can use a card to withdraw.

  32. #32
    horja1
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    Quote Originally Posted by TennisProFrance View Post
    Nope, can use a card to withdraw.
    actually it depends ... for some countries there is only the posibility to request a payout to your bank account

  33. #33
    onemoregoal
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    Why are BWIN at fault here? from what i understand, they are willing to pay the full amount to bank account - that is not unreasonable. 90% of people would have no problem with this.
    Its not Bwins fault that Poland has strict and obscure laws on gaming, responsibility will be on the customer. A customer who knew of the rules since 2011.
    Hes basically saying "SBR help me to avoid taxes".
    BWIN suck ass, yes. They probably knew what they are doing - but at the same time, so did the customer.

  34. #34
    Dunhill
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigballa View Post
    [...]but what are you going to do if they agree to send the money to skrill/neteller?? Just log in from time to time and have a look at it sat there?
    you can use the skrill prepaid ********** to withdraw your money from your skrill account

  35. #35
    allin1
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoregoal View Post
    Why are BWIN at fault here? from what i understand, they are willing to pay the full amount to bank account - that is not unreasonable. 90% of people would have no problem with this.
    Its not Bwins fault that Poland has strict and obscure laws on gaming, responsibility will be on the customer. A customer who knew of the rules since 2011.
    Hes basically saying "SBR help me to avoid taxes".
    BWIN suck ass, yes. They probably knew what they are doing - but at the same time, so did the customer.
    bingo!

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