heritage grading question

[bubba]

I made 4 prop bets in the cubs game last night on total strikeouts by pitchers. I say they should all be no action because the game went 4.5 innings. they say they are all losers as it says in the ticket "pitcher must start for action". they are basically saying since it says in the ticket "pitcher must start for action", that if the game was rained out after 1 inning, i would lose all my over bets because the pitchers started.

I believe industry standard for player props are game must go 8.5 ininings. there rules dont mention prop bets. but these should be treated as totals. there total rule is posted below.

Am I right or wrong?

• When betting on totals and/or run-lines the game must go nine innings (eight and a half if the home team is winning). Extra innings are included in the final totals. Listed pitchers must start the game. In case of disputes the ruling made by "The Mirage" sports book in Las Vegas will apply.

[cloverfield]

Totals is definitely not the same thing as a player prop. You can't say THAT'S the reason it should be counted.


This is a difficult one. If the wager was for STARTING pitchers than it might have action...because you never know how long they would stay in the game regardless. If it was for overall pitchers than common sense would say the game would have to play out.

This is an interesting one for sure. USUALLY any type of Player Prop Total Bets require the whole game to be completed. Clearer rules probably should be added for these kind of prop bets.


5Dimes explains this pretty explicitly: The following propositions will be graded NO ACTION if a game does not go 8½-9 inning and is an official completed game on that day: team statistical match-ups, player match-ups (including total bases), team total runs, H-R-E wagers, or any wager involving an over/under format.

I don't think they are "screwing you". You should probably ask for clarification with someone in management.

[creed]

You are 100% correct.. Wager should be no action.

[bubba]

i was always under the impression that player props were treated like totals (as long as it is not 1st player to do xxx). What is bugging the hell out me is them telling me once the pitcher throws a pitch, there is action. Game gets rained out in the bottom of the 1st, there is action? are you kidding me? I swear this is what they told me. Of course they wont let me speak to the decision maker.

[cloverfield]

i was always under the impression that player props were treated like totals (as long as it is not 1st player to do xxx). What is bugging the hell out me is them telling me once the pitcher throws a pitch, there is action. Game gets rained out in the bottom of the 1st, there is action? are you kidding me? I swear this is what they told me. Of course they wont let me speak to the decision maker.

Hopefully Heritage Insider sees this post. He will clarify it for you. He's awesome to deal with. I think there is miscommunication on the CSR's part.

[bubba]

i have asked to speak to supervisor after supervisor today. untill they guy had no supervisor. they sound pretty determined that 1 inning is enough for action on these props. sadly these 3+ hours of stress this morning can never be replaced even if the wager is properly graded

[mrpooh]

From the way Heritage words it, it should be a loss. It says Pitcher must start for action. As soon as they start, what ever number of K's they get, that is the total. If a pitcher goes 0.1 IP it still counts. So why wouldn't it count if the game goes 4.5? They specifically mention 9 innings, or 8.5, for props that are required to go that length, they never say that for a K prop. You lose

[cloverfield]

From the way Heritage words it, it should be a loss. It says Pitcher must start for action. As soon as they start, what ever number of K's they get, that is the total. If a pitcher goes 0.1 IP it still counts. So why wouldn't it count if the game goes 4.5? They specifically mention 9 innings, or 8.5, for props that are required to go that length, they never say that for a K prop. You lose

Can you please list the rule you are going by? Thanks

[Doug]

What happens if you play weatherman and bet the unders ?

[relaaxx]

You are 100% correct.. Wager should be no action.

i agree. have no idea why they graded that way, there is no justification. heritage insider will fix this. message him. if he hasn't messaged you already. i have to start playing the under stikeouts for a pitcher whenever i see they are going to play in bad weather.

[bubba]

From the way Heritage words it, it should be a loss. It says Pitcher must start for action. As soon as they start, what ever number of K's they get, that is the total. If a pitcher goes 0.1 IP it still counts. So why wouldn't it count if the game goes 4.5? They specifically mention 9 innings, or 8.5, for props that are required to go that length, they never say that for a K prop. You lose

Under heritage's general Heritage Sports has always considered common sense and good judgment in accessing all client interactions questions and claims"

When you wager on a baseball game runline it doesnt say game must go 8.5 innings on the ticket. It just says that the pitchers must pitch. But I assume that it must and it states it in there rules that length is needed

. It should be stated in there rules that the game must 1 inning (or rather pitcher must throw 1 pitch) for action if thats what they really want (there is no way that is there intended rule at all). Just because the pitcher "must start" it does not mean there can be no other requirements for the game to have action. And not every rule has to be listed on the ticket. You can go by there rules which inexplicably mention nothin for baseball props.

For anyone who wagers on baseball this is pretty clearly a common sense issue. Last night i had multiple prop bets on multiple sites on the cubs game. some winning, some losing. Every other site properly cancelled them.

[Heritage Insider]

The rule is clear under the letter of the "law". Player props simply stipulate player must start to have action. Rules are in place to consider the vast number of scenarios.

Of course there are bets on the other side of this wager that would agree with the ruling and grading. Likewise, if the pitcher had 6 strikeouts at the time the game was called, there would be no post or misleading thread.

That being said, we always govern with a common sense approach. Please call our call center and speak with our General Manager and he can review this with you.

[mrpooh]

Can you please list the rule you are going by? Thanks

Go to the MLB player props that are up there now. Under some props they say game must go 9 innings, other they don’t. For those that don’t, they are action plays. For example, if you bet first team to score, and someone scores in the first inning, even if the game gets rained out, someone scored and all wagers are graded. For the k props they only mention starters, nothing about length of game.

[bubba]

The rule is clear under the letter of the "law". Player props simply stipulate player must start to have action. Rules are in place to consider the vast number of scenarios.

Of course there are bets on the other side of this wager that would agree with the ruling and grading. Likewise, if the pitcher had 6 strikeouts at the time the game was called, there would be no post or misleading thread.

That being said, we always govern with a common sense approach. Please call our call center and speak with our General Manager and he can review this with you.

Ill disagree strongly that the rule is clear under the letter of the law. The rules actually mention nothing on baseball props, making it almost as vague as i can imagine. And I strongly challenge anyone to find me a respected wagering establishment where 1 inning is enough for action on this type of wager.

a way there is no thread is if this wager was graded like it would be at any other book I know of. Or if the "unique" rule of 1 inning or less being needed for action was explicitly stated in the rules. I would be like damm. Who knew? And come to terms with them being graded as a loss.

Is there any way i can speak to the general manager via email or chat? i get poor phone service, plus I like to have these things documented. Thanks much!

[creed]

The rule is clear under the letter of the "law". Player props simply stipulate player must start to have action. Rules are in place to consider the vast number of scenarios.

Of course there are bets on the other side of this wager that would agree with the ruling and grading. Likewise, if the pitcher had 6 strikeouts at the time the game was called, there would be no post or misleading thread.

That being said, we always govern with a common sense approach. Please call our call center and speak with our General Manager and he can review this with you.

You are talking 2 different senarios. If the pitcher comes out and throws 1 pitch and the next pitch he gets hurt and cant continue that would be graded a under bet action goes . When a game is rained out that is a diferent story just as if the game was rained out after he throws one pitch thats bet would be no action

[bubba]

Go to the MLB player props that are up there now. Under some props they say game must go 9 innings, other they don’t. For those that don’t, they are action plays. For example, if you bet first team to score, and someone scores in the first inning, even if the game gets rained out, someone scored and all wagers are graded. For the k props they only mention starters, nothing about length of game.

the other props are all industry standard. comparing team to score 1st with total strikeouts is a bit absurd. If it said game must go 1 inning for action next to the strikeout props (it never would because of how absurd that even sounds) i would have 0 complaint. it doesnt mention the length. Surely some form of length more than a pitch is needed, no???

[bubba]

You are talking 2 different senarios. If the pitcher comes out and throws 1 pitch and the next pitch he gets hurt and cant continue that would be graded a under bet action goes . When a game is rained out that is a diferent story just as if the game was rained out after he throws one pitch thats bet would be no action

Exactly!!!

[bubba]

Here is an example of a poorly worded heritage prop. I dont see anything in the rules on player props for them.

Do the listed pitchers have to start? It also says player must start. Not sure if that means the hitters or the pitchers. I will assume they mean the players listed Maybe I am missing something but it appears to be like this for every player vs player prop in baseball. Are they listed pitchers or action? We do know the game must go 8.5 innings

Wed 8/20	646773	D Peralta (ARI) most total bases		<input id="editx" type="text" name="M1_13" size="4" maxlength="5" style="width: 40px; border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); margin: 0px 5px 4px 0px;">-120
4:05PM (PST)	646774	A Rendon (WAS) most total bases		<input id="editx" type="text" name="M2_13" size="4" maxlength="5" style="width: 40px; border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); margin: 0px 5px 4px 0px;">-110
* Game Note: Single=1,Double=2,Triple=3,HR=4.Player must start for action. Wagers official after 9 full innings or 8½ if the home team winning. Extra Innings count.

[bubba]

my point is industry standard is listed pitchers here. But because it doesnt say it, that means that it is action regardless? I feel like if you are trying to go against the industry standard (that is fine to do) than you should state MORE TERMS of the wager. Not less. be extra clear if your intent is for something differnt, not less clear. Only causes mass confusion for your players.

[bubba]

So I called the GM

1- he stand by his ruling. I do disagree with this. They are crediting the funds back to my account as a "goodwill" sort of gesture so I am satisfied. He said he spoke to people at 5Dimes and bookmaker about this and they all agreed with him on this grading issue.

2- I defenitely could have created a better thread title. Its not super fair to heritage if a Mod could change this its appreciated.

Dont know what else to say. I will be more careful in knowing heritage rules, and I encourage them to state there rules more clearly. Whatever they may be. Funds just hit my account. Peace!

[Optional]

2- I defenitely could have created a better thread title. Its not super fair to heritage if a Mod could change this its appreciated.

Done.

[capone1899]

I believe both sides are right in this instance. The bettor did get screwed, but it's because Heritages rules are so vague.

They need to add something to the rules that mentions a pitchers start getting cut short by acts of god. I mean, if a pitcher throws two innings and gets lit up, the bet should stand. If he goes out and throws 10 pitches and it pours the rest of the night, it should be no action.
No bettor would believe when they made this wager that a rainout would count as a full start.

" Pitcher must start" only means that is what is needed for the bet to begin, not be graded in full.

The rules need changed/added to.

[Courtesywipe]

I also had a funky grading on live wager at 5dimes. I bet on San Fran to win the game in 3rd inning when they were down 0-2. An inning later the game is called and I lose the bet. Never realized that would be a loser.

[bubba]

I also had a funky grading on live wager at 5dimes. I bet on San Fran to win the game in 3rd inning when they were down 0-2. An inning later the game is called and I lose the bet. Never realized that would be a loser.

i would think for live betting the game must go 8.5 innings. Did you bet this with "live betting extra" or the other?

[Courtesywipe]

i would think for live betting the game must go 8.5 innings. Did you bet this with "live betting extra" or the other?

Live betting extra. Yeah, I REALLY thought it would be no action. Oh well.

[bubba]

for the record, i had rizzo over 2 Hits runs and rbis last night. he hit a hr in 1st. No action. And i had the giants moneyline as the last leg of a parlay. The rainout really hurt me!!

[rcene]

Way I understood it, Heritage not a fan of strict prop players. Imagine that's why they have vague rules to punish the player in these scenarios.

[bubba]

I am kind of shocked they still have the same wording under the prop. If they really want action even if game goes 1 inning, this should be explicitly stated.

[Majman]

Hey Bubba...I remember you back from the Bodog days. In my experience, if your case is reasonable and if you are a good customer, Heritage will usually do the right thing. I feel like your case is more than reasonable but they have to set up rules in which a player cannot get a free roll if rains interrupt or end a game. If you have over 6.5 strikeouts and the pitcher threw 7 in a rain shortened game, you would want credit for a win. If in that same scenario, a pitcher threw 5 strikeouts through 5 innings, a player would want a no contest. Not fair to Heritage. With that being said, I am glad that they did the right thing and made the exception for you. Hope all is well with you.

[wrongturn]

What you just described is actually very fair to all parties. You can not mention in your arguments the only losing side to books, while ignoring that books may have bets on the winning sides to benefit as well. Rules are rules, as long as they are clear.

[bubba]

bump

strikeout props stand on indians game tonight. dear heritage- if the indians game was rained out in the 2nd inning, would all strikeout props stand?

I cannot complain as I know the rules but I think its a little lazy on their part not to have updated them to be more clear. Kinda expect better from a great book like heritage.

[darkghost]

So I called the GM

1- he stand by his ruling. I do disagree with this. They are crediting the funds back to my account as a "goodwill" sort of gesture so I am satisfied. He said he spoke to people at 5Dimes and bookmaker about this and they all agreed with him on this grading issue.

2- I defenitely could have created a better thread title. Its not super fair to heritage if a Mod could change this its appreciated.

Dont know what else to say. I will be more careful in knowing heritage rules, and I encourage them to state there rules more clearly. Whatever they may be. Funds just hit my account. Peace!

I know this was said 3 years ago but my Kluber (winning) strikeouts under prop bet was canceled by Bookmaker. I haven't spoken to anyone at Bookmaker yet and I haven't found anything clear in their rules either about this scenario but if your above statement is true then my wager should be graded a winner and not a no play.
I'll contact them tomorrow for clarification and follow up here. For such major books, you'd think they'd have clearer rules stated.

[semibluff]

If you ask bettors whether they want a small rulebook with simple rules or an encyclopedia full of complicated rules for every circumstance they will say they want the simple rulebook - until they run into a circumstance when the simple rulebook doesn't seem right or fair and it's against them. That's not a criticism of either side but having been on both sides it's just how it is. Proposition bets will always complicate things. Sometimes the game result will stand and the proposition bets won't. Other times proposition bets will stand and the game result won't. It doesn't mean the rules are wrong. The simplest principle is books only make money if there's a result - so rules favour trying to call a result. Books don't really care what the result is, just so long as there's a result.

[bubba]

If you ask bettors whether they want a small rulebook with simple rules or an encyclopedia full of complicated rules for every circumstance they will say they want the simple rulebook - until they run into a circumstance when the simple rulebook doesn't seem right or fair and it's against them. That's not a criticism of either side but having been on both sides it's just how it is. Proposition bets will always complicate things. Sometimes the game result will stand and the proposition bets won't. Other times proposition bets will stand and the game result won't. It doesn't mean the rules are wrong. The simplest principle is books only make money if there's a result - so rules favour trying to call a result. Books don't really care what the result is, just so long as there's a result.

Couldn't disagree more. I want the rulebook to cover every last scenario and take all opinions out of it. I want every last weird thing to be covered in the rulebook.

[bubba]

I know this was said 3 years ago but my Kluber (winning) strikeouts under prop bet was canceled by Bookmaker. I haven't spoken to anyone at Bookmaker yet and I haven't found anything clear in their rules either about this scenario but if your above statement is true then my wager should be graded a winner and not a no play.
I'll contact them tomorrow for clarification and follow up here. For such major books, you'd think they'd have clearer rules stated.

What do bookmakers rules say?