Why bitcoin is good for the industry and why YOU should push it to your bookie!

[HeeeHAWWWW]

Unless you're deemed to be a professional (vary rare) gambler, winnings are tax exempt in the UK, Australia and NZ.

All gambling winnings are tax exempt in the UK, even professionals:

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/bimmanual/bim22015.htm

(click professional gambler)


Too much hassle to collect, so they just tax the gambling companies instead.

Taking bets via betfair/matchbook with other punters is perhaps in a sort of grey area, since you're coming slightly close to their definition of a bookmaker. That's not been enforced though afaik, and I doubt it would be.

[Hareeba!]

All gambling winnings are tax exempt in the UK, even professionals:

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/bimmanual/bim22015.htm

(click professional gambler)


Too much hassle to collect, so they just tax the gambling companies instead.

Taking bets via betfair/matchbook with other punters is perhaps in a sort of grey area, since you're coming slightly close to their definition of a bookmaker. That's not been enforced though afaik, and I doubt it would be.

As I said, it would be very rare but "Whether their gambling winnings are proceeds of that trade would depend upon the facts." Exactly the same as Australia.

Tax authorities tend to be somewhat "lenient" on successful gamblers. Not so much "too much hassle to collect" as opening the doors to people claiming to be professionals and then claiming their losses as deductions. They are aware that it could well be a net losing game for them.

But they have certainly gone after some consistently big winners.

"Gambling companies", i.e. bookmakers are subject to tax just like any other trading company.

[HeeeHAWWWW]

As I said, it would be very rare but "Whether their gambling winnings are proceeds of that trade would depend upon the facts."

Ahh, but the full paragraph:


-----------------------------------------------------------
Some ‘professional gamblers’ do carry on a trade, for example, where they receive appearance money for appearing on television programmes. They are providing a service to a customer (the television production company) for reward. Whether their gambling winnings are proceeds of that trade would depend upon the facts.
-----------------------------------------------------------

"That trade" at the end refers to the something, eg being a tv pundit, which the gambling winnings are a proceed of.



As the paragraph before says, "....... having expertise or being systematic (‘studying form’) is not enough to create a trade of being a ‘professional gambler'".


It might be different in Australia, but here can you happily put in tax returns declaring income as from gambling and it all gets assessed as untaxable.

[Hareeba!]

Ahh, but the full paragraph:


-----------------------------------------------------------
Some ‘professional gamblers’ do carry on a trade, for example, where they receive appearance money for appearing on television programmes. They are providing a service to a customer (the television production company) for reward. Whether their gambling winnings are proceeds of that trade would depend upon the facts.
-----------------------------------------------------------

"That trade" at the end refers to the something, eg being a tv pundit, which the gambling winnings are a proceed of.



As the paragraph before says, "....... having expertise or being systematic (‘studying form’) is not enough to create a trade of being a ‘professional gambler'".


It might be different in Australia, but here can you happily put in tax returns declaring income as from gambling and it all gets assessed as untaxable.

What you are quoting is just random snippets. You really do need to do a lot more reading.

What does the quote I gave you mean if your interpretation is the full story?

The law is essentially the same in England and Australia.

There are professionals who are assessed and pay tax on their gambling profits.

If you're not classed as a professional you don't even put the profits in your tax return!

Oh, and btw, I spent almost 40 years working as a tax professional.
I think I learned just a bit about this.

[Optional]

What you are quoting is just random snippets. You really do need to do a lot more reading.

What does the quote I gave you mean if your interpretation is the full story?

The law is essentially the same in England and Australia.

There are professionals who are assessed and pay tax on their gambling profits.

If you're not classed as a professional you don't even put the profits in your tax return!

Oh, and btw, I spent almost 40 years working as a tax professional.
I think I learned just a bit about this.

I thought if gambling was simply "your primary source of income" it was deemed taxable in Australia?

I met a pro gambler once who claimed being taxable was an advantage to him. Can't recall his explanation but it had to do with being able to carry over losses as a tax credit he could use in some innovative way with associated business activity.

[Hareeba!]

I thought if gambling was simply "your primary source of income" it was deemed taxable in Australia?

That would certainly put one in contention but the decision would come down to an examination of all facts.

The courts in Australia haven't done a lot to support the ATO in attempting to classify punters as professional.

I met a pro gambler once who claimed being taxable was an advantage to him. Can't recall his explanation but it had to do with being able to carry over losses as a tax credit he could use in some innovative way with associated business activity.

One would hope that if he really was a pro, he'd not be racking up tax losses!

[HeeeHAWWWW]

There are professionals who are assessed and pay tax on their gambling profits.

If you're not classed as a professional you don't even put the profits in your tax return!

OK, admittedly this was five years ago, so I might be a little fuzzy on the details, but I was told by hmrc that they don't accept a trade of "professional gambler" exists at all. They even specifically state on the self-assessment tax forms to exclude gambling income, because it's non-taxable. However, after a spat with the tax office in the past I had to provide support documentation for my other non-gambling income, amongst which was bank and moneybookers statements - for these, I specify which are gambling, and which aren't. Back then, they were fine with my gambling income (then about 2/3 of my income) going untaxed, although they did pull me up on something else, which ended being an expensive mistake. Anyway, that was a long while back, everything was sorted out, I've continued to list the income as gambling every year since, referring back to the previous case, and just in case things change, but they've never queried it since.

Google-fu suggests Australia is treating things differently of late, but I've never heard of a UK case of someone being forced to pay gambling winnings. I'm sure there's room for that to change, given they've been more aggressive on all manner of tax collection issues lately, but as far as I know it's still the current policy.

[dirtdog52658]

Have you even read my initial post? There is no risk because you don't need to put more then 1 bet worth of money on the site and cash it out instantly. Those who lost everything deserved it because they acted like fools.

How do you avoid getting screwed on the wallet end? MtGox was a nightmare for some people with millions being lost. How does one avoid this?

[bobbywaves]

Apparently the only way to protect yourself is by cashing out after every wager.

[bookie]

Apparently the only way to protect yourself is by cashing out after every wager.

That sounds like more of a hassle than it is. In practice you have your own "wallet" from which you place the bet, and if it wins the winnings can be automatically and securely sent to an address associated with your wallet. In other words, you don't have to do anything to cash out after every bet.

Some Bitcoin books work like that, but at present AsianConnect and other brokers do not. It's a technical possibility, though, and the bookmakers who adopt it will have a selling point.

[dirtdog52658]

Apparently the only way to protect yourself is by cashing out after every wager.

Yeah I just see two options when cashing out you keep them in bitcoins in a secret wallet on your pc or usb stick or whatever. But then you risk the the bitcoin crashing or dropping 20% and losing a ton of money. Or you use a wallet and after each cash out exchange it back to USD to avoid the bitcoin price changes but then you risk the wallet going down like mtgox did where customers lost millions of dollars. From the guys who do this in and out thing what do you do in these scenarios.

[elgreco]

What can be done to prevent another MtGox from taking place? How can one trust one wallet to the other or is there a different way to approach this? I'm curious into learning a bit more about this especially after reading the horror stories associated to the once biggest wallet for bitcoin trading.

Mt. Gox was never a wallet. It was an exchange. The simple answer is that you should not keep money in an exchange unless you are trading with it. Unfortunately, many people used Mt. Gox as a place to store their bitcoins (like a wallet), and they are the ones that got hosed when Mt. Gox collapsed due to gross mismanagement and alleged fraud.

Steps are already being taken to prevent the next Mt. Gox. Other exchanges are publishing results from third-party audits that prove they are solvent. Digital security is a very tough business. If you are interested in bitcoin, you should spend time reading about safe practices for coin storage. In the end, YOU are ultimately responsible for the safekeeping of your coins.

If, after reading, you feel it seems too technical or too much of a hassle; I recommend keeping an eye on the development of new and friendlier bitcoin tools. The bitcoin space is expanding every day. More and more venture capitalists are pouring substantial amounts of money into infrastructure development. Marc Andreeson said "...the number of startups in Silicon Valley that are ramping up right now to build all kinds of applications around bitcoin is staggering... And so, we’re seeing a really interesting flow of early-stage companies that have all kinds of ideas for everything—bitcoin contracts and bitcoin keys and bitcoin title and bitcoin assurance and derivatives and on and on and on, all these different kinds of applications of financial services rebuilt with bitcoin"

I truly believe that Bitcoin is ushering in a new age in currency. The age of the Cryptocurrencies. When you take the time to understand the current problems that Bitcoin solves and the potential it has to disrupt the status quo in all types of industry, I believe you will feel the same way. I cannot promise that bitcoin itself will be around in 20 years. But I am 100% convinced that cryptocurrency is here to stay.

[Hareeba!]

"When you take the time to understand the current problems that Bitcoin solves ..."

I'm still yet to find a single one it solves for me!

[Optional]

"When you take the time to understand the current problems that Bitcoin solves ..."

I'm still yet to find a single one it solves for me!

Yeah, you keep saying that... but hands up anyone else in this thread that manages to transfer money fee free and without paying a middle man like Skrill or your bank?


And here is a problem it even solves for the likes of you Hareeba. http://forum.sbrforum.com/sportsbook...l#post21090734

Bet365 simply asked Skrill to cancel 48,000 euro worth of valid previous payments and Skrill immediately stole the 48k from the players account.

You can avoid the untrustworthy scum that Skrill and most other middle man money transfer services are.

You must see that advantage of always holding your own money instead of trusting rouge barely regulated organisations like Skrill to do as they wish with it at a whim.

[Hareeba!]

Yeah, you keep saying that... but hands up anyone else in this thread that manages to transfer money fee free and without paying a middle man like Skrill or your bank?


And here is a problem it even solves for the likes of you Hareeba. http://forum.sbrforum.com/sportsbook...l#post21090734

Bet365 simply asked Skrill to cancel 48,000 euro worth of valid previous payments and Skrill immediately stole the 48k from the players account.

You can avoid the untrustworthy scum that Skrill and most other middle man money transfer services are.

You must see that advantage of always holding your own money instead of trusting rouge barely regulated organisations like Skrill to do as they wish with it at a whim.

If they could get B365 to allow me to bet then that would be the first benefit I would acknowledge.

As for Skrill, my experience of hundreds of transactions over a decade has been nothing short of excellent. Always worked efficiently without a single glitch. And I've enjoyed the benefit of loyalty programs along the way.

And that's real money in an account I can access whenever I want. Not some mysterious "currency" which has no backing.

[Optional]

If they could get B365 to allow me to bet then that would be the first benefit I would acknowledge.

As for Skrill, my experience of hundreds of transactions over a decade has been nothing short of excellent. Always worked efficiently without a single glitch. And I've enjoyed the benefit of loyalty programs along the way.

And that's real money in an account I can access whenever I want. Not some mysterious "currency" which has no backing.

It really isn't that mysterious or complicated. New tools to make it feel and work like any other currency people use with paypal are arriving weekly.

There is a service called BitPay that books could use. It's a clearing house for bitcoin/$ conversions.

Player deposits $100, bitpay charges player in bitcoin and each night deposits dollars into books bank account. Book sees exactly $100. As far as the merchant is concerned it's no different in process than a regular bank transfer.

If Paypal or Amazon release support for the "PayCoin" would it seem less mysterious? Because that sort of thing is likely to happen in the near future.

It doesn't need backing in traditional terms. "Backing" in the fiat currency world equates to fees and middle men and market control by the few. And what does it give you really? Currencies are still traded and speculated upon. Same as bitcoin.

[Domestic]

It really isn't that mysterious or complicated. New tools to make it feel and work like any other currency people use with paypal are arriving weekly.

There is a service called BitPay that books could use. It's a clearing house for bitcoin/$ conversions.

Player deposits $100, bitpay charges player in bitcoin and each night deposits dollars into books bank account. Book sees exactly $100. As far as the merchant is concerned it's no different in process than a regular bank transfer.

If Paypal or Amazon release support for the "PayCoin" would it seem less mysterious? Because that sort of thing is likely to happen in the near future.

It doesn't need backing in traditional terms. "Backing" in the fiat currency world equates to fees and middle men and market control by the few. And what does it give you really? Currencies are still traded and speculated upon. Same as bitcoin.

Could not have put it better.

[bookie]

It's also the case that if Bitcoin gets to be simple enough to use that U.S. recreational bettors return to the fray there will be more places offering discount juice, and more liquidity at Matchbook. To say Bitcoin doesn't solve a problem I have is to not see the big picture.

[tradeout]

It really isn't that mysterious or complicated. New tools to make it feel and work like any other currency people use with paypal are arriving weekly.

There is a service called BitPay that books could use. It's a clearing house for bitcoin/$ conversions.

Player deposits $100, bitpay charges player in bitcoin and each night deposits dollars into books bank account. Book sees exactly $100. As far as the merchant is concerned it's no different in process than a regular bank transfer.

If Paypal or Amazon release support for the "PayCoin" would it seem less mysterious? Because that sort of thing is likely to happen in the near future.

It doesn't need backing in traditional terms. "Backing" in the fiat currency world equates to fees and middle men and market control by the few. And what does it give you really? Currencies are still traded and speculated upon. Same as bitcoin.

see what you have said previously:

'You can avoid the untrustworthy scum that Skrill and most other middle man money transfer services are.'

and now you are embracing some dodgy paycoin service?

[Hareeba!]

It's also the case that if Bitcoin gets to be simple enough to use that U.S. recreational bettors return to the fray there will be more places offering discount juice, and more liquidity at Matchbook. To say Bitcoin doesn't solve a problem I have is to not see the big picture.

I didn't say it may not solve a problem YOU have but I've yet to find one single thing for which bitcoins would improve my lot. Not one!

[jjgold]

Its still too complicated period

Americans are simple bettors its why exchanges failed in usa also

[Optional]

see what you have said previously:

'You can avoid the untrustworthy scum that Skrill and most other middle man money transfer services are.'

and now you are embracing some dodgy paycoin service?

Skrill holds your money. BitPay deposits it directly to your bank account.

[stlouis262014]

Could not have put it better.

I second that

[RedDevil1974]

You dont pay tax on ANY pro gambling in any country unless it involves fraud or criminal activity

because if they said you had to pay tax on yr winnings they would be inundated by ppl claiming all stakes losses as tax deductible outgoings.

[Hareeba!]

You dont pay tax on ANY pro gambling in any country unless it involves fraud or criminal activity

because if they said you had to pay tax on yr winnings they would be inundated by ppl claiming all stakes losses as tax deductible outgoings.

Incorrect.

Taxable in the US just for starters.

Several Aussies are paying tax.

[bookie]

I didn't say it may not solve a problem YOU have but I've yet to find one single thing for which bitcoins would improve my lot. Not one!

You missed the point of my post. If Bitcoin became widely used and bettors who now must risk their bankroll only had to deposit the amount of their bets the gambling economy would boom and you would benefit from a deeper and more varied market.

[jjgold]

I will now start believing

why did I change??

I see major USA companies now thinking of accepting it as payment

[elgreco]

It's also the case that if Bitcoin gets to be simple enough to use that U.S. recreational bettors return to the fray there will be more places offering discount juice, and more liquidity at Matchbook. To say Bitcoin doesn't solve a problem I have is to not see the big picture.

That's a brilliant thought. Way to see the forest through the trees.

[elgreco]

http://online.wsj.com/articles/bitpay-to-sponsor-st-petersburg-bowl-in-first-major-bitcoin-sports-deal-1403098202

<section class="sector one column col10wide" style="margin: 0px auto; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-size: 10px; vertical-align: baseline; float: none; width: 993px; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; background: none transparent;"><header class="module articleHeadgroup" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; position: relative; background: transparent;"><hgroup class="hgroup clearFix" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background: transparent;">BitPay to Sponsor St. Petersburg Bowl in First Major Bitcoin Sports Deal

</hgroup></header></section><section class="sector two column col10wide" style="margin: 0px auto; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-size: 10px; vertical-align: baseline; float: none; width: 993px; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; background: none transparent;">June 18, 2014 9:30 a.m. ET
<article id="articleBody" class="module articleBody" itemprop="articleBody" style="margin: 1.6rem 0.8rem 1.6em; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; position: relative; clear: left; background: transparent;">The annual postseason college football game played in St. Petersburg, Florida will for the next four years be known as the Bitcoin St. Petersburg Bowl as part of a sponsorship deal signed between bitcoin payment processor BitPay and ESPN Events.
The arrangement marks one of the most high-profile marketing initiatives yet for a bitcoin-related business and comes as the digital currency continues to gradually make inroads into mainstream commerce.
In an announcement Wednesday, BitPay and ESPN Events, a subsidiary of sports network ESPN, said the name change would take effect at this year's Dec. 26 game and would continue each year through the 2016 game.






The game will air on ESPN. Tickets, which start at $40 each, and associated merchandise will also be available for purchase with bitcoin through Bitpay's processing services.
The St. Petersburg game, which previously bore the name of the Beef O'Brady's chain of sports-themed restaurants, is in its first year of a new college football affiliation with the Atlantic Coast Conference and the American Athletic Conference, each of which will field a team for this year's event.
BitPay's foray into college football sponsorship coincides with a new drive toward bitcoin adoption by retailers and other merchants. Over the past three weeks, satellite TV provider Dish Network and travel site Expedia Inc. have both announced they would accept bitcoin.
In the six months before that, businesses such as online retailer Overstock.com Inc., NBA team the Sacramento Kings and space-tourism provider Virgin Galactic started accepting the digital currency.
Though the deal is the first bitcoin sponsorship for a televised U.S. sporting event, it isn't the first connected to a digital currency. Those honors go to a currency known as dogecoin, which promotes itself via an Internet meme image of a shiba inu dog.
Dogecoin sponsored Nascar's Josh Wise at Alabama's Talladega Superspeedway on May 4. The sponsorship deal cost $55,000, with the funds raised via donations from dogecoin enthusiasts that were denominated in the digital currency.
</article>

</section>

[OMGRandyJackson]

The best point of using BTC is obviously no fees. However OP leaves an important detail out...

How about the fees associated with acquiring BTC? You have two main options, buy from an exchange or from someone you know/meet on BTC local/Kijiiji or similar type site.

You buy on an exchange? You are paying fees, plus the fees to get your money into the exchange can be crazy. Anywhere from 2-10% depending on your currency, and form of deposit. Now you hit a big bet and withdraw your BTC and want to convert it to cash? Again you are now paying another 2-10% in fees to sell at an exchange and withdraw.

Your fees for using BTC are going to be anywhere from 10-20% period.

The only way to get that down is buying from someone in real life and not through an exchange. The person you buy from will be selling at a higher market price, basically a fee. When you sell, your now going to have to try and find someone to buy them at your price and then actually meet with them

That is a lot more complicated.


Further you say no more id verification? Good luck, now you have to verify your ID with exchanges which can be even MORE rigorous than books, and you have no real idea who these exchanges are. These exchanges are huge mysteries when compared to A books.

Plus isn't ID verification more so the book is in compliance with the law and licensee regulations of where ever said book is based?

[elgreco]

The best point of using BTC is obviously no fees. However OP leaves an important detail out...

How about the fees associated with acquiring BTC? You have two main options, buy from an exchange or from someone you know/meet on BTC local/Kijiiji or similar type site.

You buy on an exchange? You are paying fees, plus the fees to get your money into the exchange can be crazy. Anywhere from 2-10% depending on your currency, and form of deposit. Now you hit a big bet and withdraw your BTC and want to convert it to cash? Again you are now paying another 2-10% in fees to sell at an exchange and withdraw.

Your fees for using BTC are going to be anywhere from 10-20% period.

The only way to get that down is buying from someone in real life and not through an exchange. The person you buy from will be selling at a higher market price, basically a fee. When you sell, your now going to have to try and find someone to buy them at your price and then actually meet with them

That is a lot more complicated.


Further you say no more id verification? Good luck, now you have to verify your ID with exchanges which can be even MORE rigorous than books, and you have no real idea who these exchanges are. These exchanges are huge mysteries when compared to A books.

Plus isn't ID verification more so the book is in compliance with the law and licensee regulations of where ever said book is based?

Blah blah blah blah. Screw your valid points. Just BUY BITCOIN!!! BUY BUY BUY!!!

All your dreams will come true. For realz.

Seriously though. I've been advocating bitcoin for recreational american betters since 2011. Professionals and those who live in free countries don't need to concern themselves with it at this point in time. Not for betting anyway.

[bookie]

The best point of using BTC is obviously no fees. However OP leaves an important detail out...

How about the fees associated with acquiring BTC? You have two main options, buy from an exchange or from someone you know/meet on BTC local/Kijiiji or similar type site.

You buy on an exchange? You are paying fees, plus the fees to get your money into the exchange can be crazy. Anywhere from 2-10% depending on your currency, and form of deposit. Now you hit a big bet and withdraw your BTC and want to convert it to cash? Again you are now paying another 2-10% in fees to sell at an exchange and withdraw.

Your fees for using BTC are going to be anywhere from 10-20% period.

The only way to get that down is buying from someone in real life and not through an exchange. The person you buy from will be selling at a higher market price, basically a fee. When you sell, your now going to have to try and find someone to buy them at your price and then actually meet with them

That is a lot more complicated.


Further you say no more id verification? Good luck, now you have to verify your ID with exchanges which can be even MORE rigorous than books, and you have no real idea who these exchanges are. These exchanges are huge mysteries when compared to A books.

Plus isn't ID verification more so the book is in compliance with the law and licensee regulations of where ever said book is based?

In the U.S. the major exchange is Coinbase, and the fee there would be one percent in and one percent out. That is tiny compared to fees for all other forms of transfer. But for that fee the account is linked to your bank account making transfers as easy as in the good old Neteller days.

After the Mt Gox fiasco the reputable exchanges got together and published an agreement to make their audit processes transparent and to share information related to security breaches. It's too early to say whether this inter-industry cooperation is happening, and it's true that an exchange could go down here or there. That said, it's in the interests of the legitimate exchanges to learn best practices from each other. Certainly the mechanisms for seeing into exchanges like "Vault of Satoshi" has gotten better, and will get better.

You're certainly correct that the exchanges abide by the "know your customer" regulations, and so there is documentation to provide. I don't think most bettors have a problem with that. What bothers me, rather, is providing potentially sensitive information to offshores whose customer service is notoriously lax and who keep changing the rules such that you never know when you're done.

Not only that, but with processors closing down all the time I've gotten more than one check from an offshorei that was no good. Both times it happened the Book worked with me and I eventually got paid, but there were phone calls to be made and more documentation to be provided. Bitcoin is a workaround for the problem of the sketchy payment processors that books are forced to use.

As Hareeba keeps insisting at present a lot of the problems BTC solves are problems particular to Americans, but it sure could solve them nicely if more books would embrace the technology.

[jjgold]

I think a couple airlines and also expedia take bitcoin now in the USA

That's a very good sign

[OMGRandyJackson]

Blah blah blah blah. Screw your valid points. Just BUY BITCOIN!!! BUY BUY BUY!!!

All your dreams will come true. For realz.

Seriously though. I've been advocating bitcoin for recreational american betters since 2011. Professionals and those who live in free countries don't need to concern themselves with it at this point in time. Not for betting anyway.

I am not saying its bad, I support bitcoin, own some myself. And I think its great for people in the US who have trouble depositing and withdrawing. I am just saying its not as simple as OP makes it. Those exchanges are a pain to get verified.

[jjgold]

once the exchanges are better I think more people will buy it

still not easy like Randy says