Paddy Power Ibas Dispute (horses)

**headgames** · 11-25-08, 05:16 AM

They're certainly not the only book to show withdrawn horses without reforming the market until later.

What odds did you get on at and what were the other books offering at the time you bet?

**4Eigner** · 11-25-08, 06:05 AM

your bet was placed after the other horse was withdrawn? Then PP still showed the "old" odds, but later they reducted your price? Well, that's R4.

or did i misunderstand your problem? (might be, my english is not the best)

**qwerty159** · 11-25-08, 06:50 AM

The odds were pretty good I have to admit (I think most bookies gave 4, some 3.75 and I took 4.5 with PP) not a huge difference though.

Seems from your comments that it's not unusual, but I still can't see how all this is consistent with the above terms and conditions ("Reductions will apply only to prices prior to the announcement of the withdrawal"). None of the other UK bookies does this (I've used in the past Willhill, Ladbrokes, Bluesq, Victor, Coral, Sky, Betdirect, Tote, Gamebookers as well as Canbet and Centrebet), they always instantly reform or suspend the market.

**4Eigner** · 11-25-08, 08:05 AM

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PP Rules:
In all horse races, excluding ante-post bets, if a horse is withdrawn, not under starter’s orders, bets will be settled in accordance with Tattersall’s Rule 4(c), which lays down that backers of the withdrawn horse will have their stakes refunded. When there has not been time for the market to reform, deductions are made from winnings (exclusive of stake) according to the table below. In cases of more than one withdrawal in a race, the total deduction will not exceed 0.90c in €1.00. When there has been time to reform the market, deductions will apply only to bets at board prices struck prior to the announcement of the withdrawal.
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Betfair rules: Subject always to Betfair’s right to void bets under its terms and conditions or for any exception under the Betfair Rules, if a market contains a statement that says “ALL BETS STAND, RUN OR NOT” (or something similar) in the Market Information, then all bets on a team or competitor will stand regardless of whether or not the team or competitor starts the event or takes any part in the event.
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Ladbrokes: Bets on the remaining runners in that race, taken at Early Prices or at Show Prices prior to withdrawal, will be subject to a deduction. This is based on Tattersalls Rule 4(c) (see below) and is dependent on the Non-Runner's price at the time it was withdrawn.
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In my opinion, the R4 is made to avoid "closed markets" few minutes before the race starts. Lot of punters want to place their bets in the last minutes - would be bad for business, if the bookies stop the market that moment.

I think the passage "DEductions will apply only to prices prior to the announcement of the withdrawal" is correct. Whenever the Bookie calculates odds based on the fact "Favorite withdrawn", there is no reason anymore to deduct these new odds. So: PRIOR.

Please note: "backers of the withdrawn horse will have their stakes refunded" This important fact makes the whole "Rule4" fair.

just my thoughts -

**qwerty159** · 11-25-08, 08:39 AM

Thanks for the thoughts. It's strange, the PP terms and conditions I quoted have a slightly different wording (on this link) http://www.paddypower.com/help/security-betting.html

I see the ones you quoted are clearer for when a horse has been withdrawn but the market not reformed (that's on a different link, http://www.paddypower.com/bet?action...lp_header.html)

According to what you quoted, PP have the right to deduct "When there has not been time for the market to reform". Of course that means that for any race with non-runners, they can theoretically use the same sentence to deduct all winnings (even if the bets were hours after the declaration of a non-runner). How can anyone know when the market has adjusted and the odds are valid ?

With Ladbrokes rule4 there's no ambiguity. Once you take a bet prior to their announcement of the withdrawal, you get reductions. (if it's after their announcement, no reductions, as it should be).

**4Eigner** · 11-25-08, 09:06 AM

I had a look at yesterday's results and found a race with a non runner in Lingfield, it seems that PP show the correct time at their result page:

Attention Required! | Cloudflare

http://www.paddypower.com/bet?action=showpage&page=results-beta.html

**4Eigner** · 11-25-08, 09:19 AM

sorry - linked just the main page of their result service. race was yesterday, Lingfield 02:00 Hancicap 7f. (just as example)

Would be easier for me to know at what race you have been betting

**qwerty159** · 11-25-08, 09:36 AM

Thanks, I had already checked the result page. My race was at Ludlow 15:25. I bet on Little Shilling (won) but had a 25% reduction due to Colonial Jim.

But the exact race/reduction times don't really matter, what I meant is, ok it says the time interval during which reductions apply (mine is 9:00 to 9:33 and I bet in 9:23) but it doesn't say when they declared the horse as a non-runner and removed it from betting.

**4Eigner** · 11-25-08, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by qwerty159

Thanks, I had already checked the result page. My race was at Ludlow 15:25. I bet on Little Shilling (won) but had a 25% reduction due to Colonial Jim.

But the exact race/reduction times don't really matter, what I meant is, ok it says the time interval during which reductions apply (mine is 9:00 to 9:33 and I bet in 9:23) but it doesn't say when they declared the horse as a non-runner and removed it from betting.

i didn't notice anything during todays racing which help to give answer on this question. Hopefully one of the SBR guys can find out something useful.

**qwerty159** · 11-25-08, 11:37 AM

yeah, I guess that's the thing, it's hard to notice it, I played months with wins/losses before this happened and I took notice. Thanks for the thoughts though !

**headgames** · 11-26-08, 04:34 AM

If you're going to be taking EPs and notice a withdrawal, check an exchange which will generally reform very quickly. Even though it implements a different reduction system, you can see what prices people are then offering and these will normally act as a good guide in telling you whether you're looking at a reformed bookie's market or not.

It will stink of an unreformed book if you notice that a few horses in the same race at one bookie are all above the odds at the exchanges and other books. Although 4.5 to 3.75 isn't a great leap in the minutes before the off when the market moves fast, it is quite a big difference on an EP and having bet at Paddy power for a while, it would have raised my eyebrow.

You can't go off the length of time from the withdrawal to your time of bet to determine whether the book has reformed. You would hope it should have reformed ten minutes or so post withdrawal but with any book (especially Ladbrokes or Skybet) this really might not be the case.

On the other hand, I do see what you're saying and it would help if bookies had some system to show whether their book was reformed or not.

**qwerty159** · 11-26-08, 03:41 PM

Thanks, I'm normally doing most of your suggestions but you're right, I should be more careful and not take it forgranted from now. I guess I come from years of soccer betting (only recently started on horses) where winnings are not reduced even though there could be similar reasons (i.e. the star-player goalkeeper of team A was declared injured, so we have to reduce your winnings because we hadn't adjusted the market). There would be an outrage ! Ok, I know it's not exactly the same thing but still...

On how much of a difference it was, I actually see such gaps (especially 4 to 4.5, ok 3.7 to 4.5 less often) if not daily at least many times a week (with no non-runners to muddle the issue). So, it's not always easy to always know if the market has reformed and it shouldn't be up to us to guess !

By the way, Ladbrokes may delay declaring non-runners but once they do, I find that they always instantly suspend all odds for a few minutes which is nice (I only play there for 2 months so perhaps there are exceptions).

**4Eigner** · 12-03-08, 11:46 AM

secondary effect of this thread:
I started to bet on horses again - decided to have a break few mounth ago

**qwerty159** · 12-04-08, 08:17 PM

Excellent that something worthwhile came out from all this

Toast a drink to me for all your future wins !

**4Eigner** · 12-09-08, 09:10 AM

I'll do that ;-D