Just what I need: a difficult decision

**slacker00** · 06-04-06, 05:54 PM

I imagine you call him, otherwise there wouldn't be much to write about.

I probably call here, just because I've got outs, and might even catch a bluff. My spider sense is putting this guy on KK with the second-nut draw. Then again, I lose a lot of pots with AA that go exactly like this. Dude probably spiked a set on the flop or turn.

**QuickLearner** · 06-04-06, 07:39 PM

Originally posted by slacker00

I imagine you call him, otherwise there wouldn't be much to write about.

Don't be too sure. I said "Results later." One possible result would go something like this:

"I fold and villain shows me 6 3 offsuit...then calls me a fish in the chat box." Then I could link to a video of me throwing a monitor out a second story window.

What I ended up doing isn't as important as what you guys would do in the same situation. Thanks for the input. I hope others are interested as well. I'll wait a while to see if there are more thoughts.

As an aside, are problems like this a good thing for this poker forum? If I'm wasting my time I'll knock it off.

**rolemand** · 06-04-06, 07:50 PM

I would call as well. I'm thinking along the lines of Slacker on this. He's probably got a big pair and one of them is a spade.

You're not wasting your time. I enjoy commenting and seeing what others are doing in these situations.

**slacker00** · 06-04-06, 11:31 PM

QL, I enjoy hands analysis like this, but you'd probably get better results posting at twoplustwo.com, which is mainly a poker related site, whereas SBR is mainly a sports betting site.

I still say that you called!

But, I understand your point.

Back to the analysis, you've really gotta have a very good read to lay down in this hand. From the information given, there just isn't quite enough to lay it down. If the guy has KQs and turned the flush, credit to him.

**mad** · 06-05-06, 02:36 AM

Great question Quick. Herein lies the reason why i hate this game, LOL. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. If it was me, he'd have it if i call and wouldn't if i folded.

As i type QQ vs AK, Villain hits the K on the river. Damn you!

My thoughts on the question at hand is that if he has position on you (i'm assuming he has), he might be trying to bluff you off the pot. Particularly if he senses weakness due to the third spade. If you held no spades it's an easy lay down. But at this point you are 9/2 on favourite to win with 9 outs if and that's a big IF, he has made the flush. It's a tough one, but i think i'd call.

Again as i type, AQo vs 97s. A98 flop, 9 river. I swear to god i hate the fucking game.

**QuickLearner** · 06-05-06, 05:06 PM

Results

Originally posted by QuickLearner

This was at Crypto. I don't know of a hand converter. Anyone? Anyway:

Full ring $50 NL cash game.

Reads: Villain is 35/6/2 through 125 hands. He's been bullying people and winning without showdowns, but when I do see his cards they're big, suited, or both. So I give him credit for being solid. He's got me covered.

Hero has AsAd on the button (Woot!)

Preflop: 3 limp in before me. I raise to 7X BB; the villain in the small blind cold calls and everybody else folds.

Flop: Tc 7s 2s

I bet 2/3 pot.
Villain calls

Turn: 9s

I bet 1/2 pot
Villain pushes all-in.

I have an overpair and the nut 4 flush, and I'm getting about 3:1 to make the call. So I ... ???

Results later.

I call all in.

The river is Kc

Villain turns over JcQc for the flush. Buhbye stack. Buy your family something nice. I am an idiot.

**QuickLearner** · 06-05-06, 05:38 PM

Postscript

In my best gameshow announcer voice: "But wait...there's more!"

Same villain, different table, next day. He remembered me and talked some sh*t. It took a while, but I finally saw a little opening. I'll let the hand history speak for me (with a little editing to protect the innocent)...

Game #xxxxxxxxxxx: Hold'em NL ($0.25/$0.50) - 2006/06/04 - 12:09:21 (ET)
Table "?????" Seat 10 is the button.
Seat 1: zzzzzzzzz ($46 in chips) [small blind]
Seat 2: zzzzzzzzz($56.30 in chips) [big blind]
Seat 3: QuickLearner ($48.90 in chips)
Seat 4: zzzzzzzzz ($45.40 in chips)
Seat 5: zzzzzzzzz ($34.70 in chips)
Seat 6: zzzzzzzzz ($16.80 in chips)
Seat 7: zzzzzzzzz ($44 in chips)
Seat 8: Yesterday's Villain ($72.20 in chips)
Seat 9: zzzzzzzzz ($63.72 in chips)
Seat 10: zzzzzzzzz ($53 in chips)
zzzzzzzzz: posts small blind $0.25
zzzzzzzzz: posts big blind $0.50
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to Quicklearner [Ad As]
Quicklearner: raises to $2
zzzzzzzzz: folds
zzzzzzzzz: folds
zzzzzzzzz: folds
zzzzzzzzz: calls $2
Yesterday's Villain: calls $2
zzzzzzzzz: folds
zzzzzzzzz: folds
zzzzzzzzz: folds
zzzzzzzzz: folds
----- FLOP ----- [3d 9h 2d]
Quicklearner: bets $4.50
zzzzzzzzz: calls $4.50
Yesterday's Villain: calls $4.50
----- TURN ----- [3d 9h 2d][8h]
Quicklearner: bets $9.50
zzzzzzzzz: folds
Yesterday's Villain: calls $9.50
----- RIVER ----- [3d 9h 2d 8h][Js]
Quicklearner: bets $32.90 and is all-in
Yesterday's Villain: calls $32.90
----- SHOW DOWN -----
Quicklearner: shows [Ad As] (A Pair of Aces, Jack high)
StuBlue: shows [Jd Td] (A Pair of Jacks, Ten high)
Quicklearner collects $99.90 from Main pot

You just have to ask yourself, what the hell was he thinking? I wonder if he was asking the same thing about me the previous day?

He must have thought he had me tilted. I can almost see it until his flush draw busted on the river. But to call with top pair and a mediocre kicker? Did he think that we were going to go for a couple extra streets this time?

Honestly, what's not to love about this game?

**scottyy11** · 06-05-06, 09:04 PM

Originally posted by QuickLearner

I call all in.

The river is Kc

Villain turns over JcQc for the flush. Buhbye stack. Buy your family something nice. I am an idiot.

not sure if i missed something there or you mean jsqs or if one spades was a club on board

**scottyy11** · 06-05-06, 09:25 PM

its ok i got it, must of been jsqs , was just trying to figure if he made fl on riv or turn

**mad** · 06-05-06, 10:47 PM

Oh well, if its any consolation i would have done the same thing. As an interesting aside, i went to bed last night thinking about this question. I kept remembering the 10 9 7 and wondering if he had the str8 draw. Then i thought nah, surely he didnt call with J 8! Then i starting thinking str8 flush and wanting to review my answer. As it turned out he hit both in the first example and neither, but had two draws, in the second. Something to watch for next time.

This guy is a good player.

**QuickLearner** · 06-05-06, 11:41 PM

Scotty: Yeah. A typo in the first hand result. He had QJs and made his flysh on the turn. I should have believed him. The "I'm an idiot" call is upheld by the replay judge.

Mad: I don't know yet how good he is. He plays good cards, so doesn't often get himself into terrible situations. I might argue that he plays too many draws agains raises. In the first hand I had "buck fever." I knew better but just made a classic mistake. I didn't give him credit for the made flush. I allowed myself to be talked into feeling that I was okay with the call....but I had already made the disasterous mistake. On the flop I was way ahead; on the turn I was as dead as a canned ham. I ran the numbers through Poker stove and am embarrassed to report how far I was behind. I was an idiot for not jamming the flop.

In the second hand the roles were reversed. He had no business calling me on the river. He had about a 28% chance to make his flush or his straight and he only got about 2:1 from the pot. I think he was the one with the fever this time.

I think it was an interesting exchange and a perfect illustration of how dangerous 1-pair hands are. I'll remember to not build big pots with this guy anymore. And I'll price him out of the pot pre-flop. It's obvious that the standard 3BB +1 for each limper stuff doesn't shake him loose. It's probably worth giving up a little post-flop EV so I don't have to spend my winning on Rolaids. Or maybe I'll just limp everything for a while against him and play Stackadonk when I catch perfect. We'll see each other a lot, so I expect it will be good times.

**mad** · 06-06-06, 01:45 AM

Well i think your question demonstrates very clearly a weakness in my own game, insofar as i have a complete disregard for what others are holding, particularly a refusal to believe they've made their hands. It's a new phenomena as i wasn't always so stupid. I used to be able to fold but of late find myself with a distinct lack of patience. Funnily enough, this new found "strategy" (and i use the term very loosely) of mine has surfaced around the time i switched from my usual online haunt and started playing at a new site. Anyone else struggle at any particular site for whatever reason? I'm sure i'm not alone.

**QuickLearner** · 06-06-06, 11:52 AM

Full Tilt for me. It's too bad...I like to play there, but I haven't found a game that fits my style.

**mad** · 06-06-06, 02:29 PM

Ditto. Took the words right out of my mouth, so to speak. Used to play at Party a lot, with some success as a complete newbie. Have since started at Full Tilt and boy o boy, i've seen/experienced some frustrating chit to say the least. Two and three outers hit at an amazing frequency over there. During my bad days, "Variance, my hairy ass!". Anyways enough crap talk as I had a nice win last night that you might appreciate given the thread topic:

Hero: KK
Villian: A10o

Early position x3 BB raise, 2 callers.

Flop: A 10 10
Hero: 2/3 pot bet, semi-bluff, 1 fold, 1 call (?????)
Villain flops a full-house, assuming he decided to slow play it = BIG mistake.
Hero: Suspicious with the cards on the board, suspect an A or 10, not both to be honest. Anyways Villain's problem.

Turn: nothing card, can't remember but didn't bother me.
Hero: Checks, Villain bets 2/3 pot. Hero calls.

River: K
Hero: Checks, trap layed (lucky as i was to hit, i didn't want to scare the villain as i had him with an A or 10 and was petty confident if i continued to show weakness he'd bet it).
Villain: all-in
Hero: Falls out of chair in an attempt to call as quick as possible.
Hero wins BIG pot, would've loved to see the look on his face after leaving me in the hand, only to beat the boat he flopped with a TWO outer on the river. Shocking beat for the poor guy but he should have finished me off earlier in the hand.

PS. Anyone had any experience with Poker Office?

**rolemand** · 06-06-06, 02:54 PM

Party Poker for me. I can't win there for some reason.

**scottyy11** · 06-06-06, 04:59 PM

this would of been a good title for another thread as to what sites u do well on and which ones u have the least luck

yep i can add my voice to full tilt...........its either super tough or im very unlucky there..........to bad cause i like there rakeback and software..............though i finally have made a decent run there the last few weeks but I suffered more 2outers there than any place and my hourly rate might be $3 hr/ lol walmart wages

sites i do well on are
sunpoker
doyles
party
prima
ladbrokes

sites that i seem to tread alot of water are
pokerstars
full tilt

24hpoker and paradise are somewhere in the middle also

**Uncle Joe** · 06-07-06, 02:57 PM

Maybe you took my money at Ladbrokes Scotty. I did not do to well there. I did great at Hollywood and cashed out to pay for a summer vacation. Paradise and Doyles have been above even just a little.