Auto donk <3
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Just my two cents. So I was at the table when this happened - HH invited me to flip - never done it but was tired of trying to grind out in .50/1 hi/lo which is the only place players were at the time.
HH said to buy-in w/ 20 as he had ~156 and couldn't re-buy in with lower amount as he had just left table. I had never flipped so he was telling me what to do - said that it was very important that bigger hand be the one to shove so if I was first to act I would check, if he was first to act he would push. He won like 4 hands in a row or so - didn't care - assumed it was variance and luck. That is when Hockey came to table, HH is particular about flipping with only one person at a time so I sat out and what Hockey said happened.
I tried to get a better understanding about what happened - still would like one. Hockey was adamant HH was cheating - HH adamant he would only play if he pushed as big stack but wouldn't explain why. I actually do see the value in flipping if you are just trying to clear a rollover - which is exactly why I agreed (I had just finished grinding out a 1200 point rollover and had smaller one I just wanted done).
Would still love to know HH's side of the story. Lots of guys here defending him so it likely wasn't what it appeared but I was there and that is how it went down for whatever my word is worth!Comment -
I cannot see why the bigger stack would have to shove. Makes no sense if you are truly flipping, otherwise it is shooting an angle.
As I said above, flipping is extremely simple.
The basics are, agree on an amount, no matter what the cards are, the first person to act puts in the designated amount, the other players in the hand, then call and then everybody checks it all down.
Rinse, wash and repeat.
Most people would generally give a heads up when they are nearing the end for them.
There might be some variations if you are in a pot limit scenario but it generally is very simple where the first to act will bet pot and the second person might also pot it and then check it down from there.Comment -
Some guys who flip a lot with each have a system. One person buys in for the max, while the other player only buys in for what they are flipping for; usually with HH and others its 20 points a flip. So like you said, HH wanted you to limp in while he shoved. What this does is give him the max flipped points per hand. Now if you win a hand and say you have 40 pts, then each guys bets 20 points and checks it down. Again, if you drop below 20 points, you check, HH shoves for the same purpose as stated above.
This works best when you have a history with guys that flip, because you take turns buying in with the bigger stack. Obviously the bigger buy in makes their rollover a lot quicker.
No I'm not sure what Hockey bought in for, nor do I know if he followed the typical rules that HH follows (as well as other guys) when they flipped. I can assure you that HH didn't intentionally try to scam anyone.Last edited by GUMMO77; 09-03-14, 04:51 PM. Reason: This type of flipping only works with O/8 tablesComment -
Maybe he thought pushing with the larger stack would help with the speed of the rollover? If you push with 156 and get called by 20, only 20 go towards the rollover, right?
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I haven't read this thread in a long time, so I forgot about what Hockey said.
I'm just assuming that HH wanted to shove first since he had the bigger stack.
Just miscommunication.Comment -
We actually tested that theory at the table assuming that was the case. I, at the time, had 39 points, checked, hockey went all-in with more than 39 points, played it out, and we both only got 39 points toward the rollover.
Could have been glitch or I could have mis-calculated somewhere but pretty sure, at least on the weekends, you only get credit for what is actually at risk regardless how much you went all-in for.Comment -
Shoving only comes into play on a NL table, & only if opponent has same or lower balance than what you agreed to flip for.
So for example: Tripe & I are flippin 20/hand. I'm lucky & run my flippin balance up to 400, Tripe is unlucky & has a remaining balance of 20. But instead of me betting 20 it makes more sense to shove, because I'll get an extra 380 towards rollover for doing so.
If you want to call that "angle shooting" so be it. However, most people would just call it smart.Comment -
OK, to be clear, I am not saying that trying to ensure the greatest amount is counted towards rollover is angle shooting.
When I have had a bigger stack than my opponent and I know they are putting in their stack no matter what I do, I have pushed for entire amount just for ease and I thought it would be included in the rollover.
Also if I am wrong about the above implication that HH was shooting an angle, I just could not see why he was doing it that way.
It still seems strange to me for that to work, the big stack would always have to win because if the shortstack (with only 20pts) wins, they now have 40pts (minus rake) so there could be no big stack shove that would only bet 20 effective pts.
Maybe I am just missing something here that puts it all into perspective (as I have never seen nor heard HH be shady before) but as I said previously flippling is quite simple and easy. That is the point of doing it.... :-)
Cheers all!Comment -
They fixed that a long time ago...it's been only risked amount counting for rollover for years I believe.
To clarify, nothing wrong with flipping (only time I object is when someone pretends sitting around for 9 hours waiting to flip is "more efficient" than playing and winning in ring games), and it's beyond implausible that HH was doing anything shady...hockey, you've got a bit of a history of over-reacting to these things
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If it was fixed, there would be no point of HH shoving. Just flip a pre determined amount in that case. If it was fixed it was fairly recently, definitely not years ago. I usually play 5/10 or 2/4 pot limit to avoid the mindless people like Tripe, who aren't interested in flipping to save time. But when I use to play NL & shoved, it was reflected in my rollover.Comment -
No, it works.
During this extended H/L open table there were a number of guys that would sit with only 7pts. I have no clue why, but anyway .... if I played them heads-up and shoved my bigger stack and they called, I got my bigger stack total. I didn't matter if I won or lost the hand.Comment -
Makes a bit of a joke of the people who stood up for HHsilver's integrity.
As Beer said... guy is a shot taker.
As is anyone else arranging with other people to roll over with no risk or time this way.
Congrats for being clever enough to work out your angle, but don't kid yourselves that HHsilver or anyone involved is honest or can be trusted..Comment -
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To optional: It is wrong to say there is no risk. Every flip is an honest gamble. you win or lose or split depending on the cards.
For example , for the two rolls I completed that day. From 550 poker points I came out with 340. That is a loss of 210. No risk? I can remember three occasions where I lost ( no splits involved ) about 13 hands in row. Two different guys who beat me for plenty in those sessions wanted to send me 100 pts. I refused saying that we are gambling and I can take a loss.
Anyway, to others here: I needed to step away for awhile. I still haven't read everything that's here and won't for a few more days. I'll be back then to post some details about the situation and flipping in general.Comment -
ok -- I'll do so. And I admit I am one of at least 20 ( maybe quite a few more, I just made a quick list from memory ) who did this . Some regularly , some occasionally , some not currently active. A good number of very talented, highly respected regulars. Apparently no one reported it.
I suspected it was a glitch, but I really didn't know for sure. SBR poker in the only poker I ever played. I didn't even know the rules for hold-em when I started and I had never even heard of omaha. I guess I may have thought (hoped) it was possible that rake ( a new word to me when I started here) for omaha was different than what I had seen in hold-em.
I hate giving so much info about my inexperience and weak play. I get bullied too much as it is.
As I said earlier, I need some time away from this thread - I've lost sleep over this and that's bad. But I will return in a few days with more comments about flipping in general and about the situation in post#1.Comment -
Don't beat yourself up HH. It's not that big of a deal.
The software is being fixed now..Comment -
no wonder people wanted omaha tables open all week
lol
bunch of penetrating scammersComment -
Big difference between something not working as SBR intended (but not contrary to how they told us it would work) for rolling over (something that exists pretty much nowhere else) and what hockey was alleging. Maybe I won't trust HH not to report sloppily set up rules when he doesn't know how they work, or trust him to care more about the unique rules than the people setting them up....but that's far from a breach of poker etiquette or anything like that.
You're not as inexperienced/weak as you think imo. Without naming any names, you're not alone in that SBR is the highest stakes you've played, and unlike some, you don't think your skill at SBR means you're a poker god. You're still a good guy in my book, and many others I imagine
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flipping is fun, its like a video poker...Comment -
Just for the record, from all my experiences with HH, he has been a good guy. When I did not understand why HH was doing the big-stack shove, I incorrectly noted that HH was shooting an angle.
I will not rehash what Triple_D said, as he stated it pretty clearly and correctly in my opinion.
Also, to be fair, as far as reporting problems with the sbr poker software, SBR has never been very open or communicative on fixing issues or addressing the forums concerns on how things are run. Adding a surprise 5x rollover to the World Cup poker points without notice and a bunch of other things where SBR just changes things without any notice does not lend to an open and honest user community.
If there was a more open and interactive dialogue with the poker community, I think there would be a lot more self reporting and community support. The rollover and the hand for hand issues have been openly discussed and noted in the past with no response from SBR.
I very much appreciate and enjoy the SBR company and community, I am just stating my honest opinion.Comment -
Well said, BD
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these poker threads make me sweat...Comment -
Hell, Opti, with TDB making all these technical game change/upgrade requests (all of which are very valid/needed), let me put in this request:
Bring in some sexy, panty-clad game girls with big
to serve drinks and massages while we play.....
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While we are making requests for software changes, can we fix the ratio of suck outs that are given to players? It's as if the programmers purposely make the lesser hand win. When I go all in and have the better hand (last night QQ vs QJ and also AK vs AQ) I know I'm screwed. It's sad when you feel good to see the lesser hand when the cards flip over.
As for flipping...never done it and never will. Would rather have fun playing cards than gambling on a flip.Comment -
if anyone is suggesting anything other than two players sitting down, agreeing to a certain amount, say 50 pts, to be bet and then called preflop, then checked down, they are trying to gain some sort of stupid fckin' advantage.... (perhaps HH thinks sbr is programmed in favor of the bigger stacks at the table, who the fuk knows, maybe he's got a really small kok and this gives him a chance to be "bigger" than another man, who the fuk knows)..... But requiring some other mofo to buy in cheap over and over while you maintain a big stack is complete bullshit. Get your rollover on the f'n table, bet and call the agreed upon amount preflop, check it through, do it again. It's that fukin simple, and you don't need any fukin "system." Anyone suggesting something else other than the simple fukin process I outlined above is a f'n tool making it much harder than it needs to be, or is trying to gain some sort of advantage he thinks exists in SBR's b.s. poker programming......
And, in sbr holdem, you only get the amount at risk credited toward your rollover, not the entire amount of your bet over the other's players shove. Any dumbass with half a brain figured that out the first time he tried it and saw he only got credited for the amount at risk.....
Now, you rollover pussies get back to rollin' over, and let us non-rollover badasses get back to doin' what we do.... (which is apparently two things: 1. reading every f'n thread that devolves into wussywaves and tdb waging their never ending war of words, and 2. crying about bad beats and biteme's inexplicable "luck" at hitting hands in rigged ring games).Last edited by Auto Donk; 09-05-14, 08:08 AM.Comment
