hand from wsop millionaire maker

**leetreaper** · 06-10-13, 12:04 PM

Easiest push ever.

**daneblazer** · 06-10-13, 12:21 PM

Could call and see the flop then go from there, but at 35,000 (or approx 29,000 after the call), you are still fairly susceptible to being knocked out . I'm jamming as the EP raisers range is huge, the CO callers range is wide, and the pot is almost half my stack size. Hopefully get CO to fold and get HU vs the EP shover with the extra chips in the pot. If I'm called AQs should hold up well there and I'm playing for a huge pot. Looks like the min cash doesn't even get 2x the buy in...so I'm playing to go deep.

**thetrinity** · 06-10-13, 01:08 PM

Interesting both you guys r saying all in

**hockey216** · 06-11-13, 12:28 AM

um you call. dont need to repush 30k on top. its a losing bet because the only hand that calls you beats you. call and see a flop. why do you need to push? you got 30k left blinds only 1000. call and see a flop. What's the damn hurry?

**hockey216** · 06-11-13, 12:31 AM

especially that close to the money. no reason to go out on the bubble when you're that close off a terrible all in shove when your stack is 35x the big blind. it was only 5500 so you can call and still got 30k. thats far from being comitted. if the big blind shoved i hope he lost and felt like a moron.

**thetrinity** · 06-11-13, 02:00 PM

bb shoved cutoff calls with jacks bb goes home.

i kinda agree with hockey, just because the cutoff had been agressively opening with a big stack doesnt mean that hes calling with a lot of bad hands in this spot.

i dont really see the cutoff calling the shove with a worse hand either, plus since theres an all in, you can expect passive play (ie checking it down) between the bb and the caller to try and eliminate the other player.

i think if the bb has less chips like say around 20000 then an all in is better, because you could get a more gambly type call out of the cutoff with his big stack.

and if you call and lose, you still have 30 bbs left which is a decent stack for this stage of the tournament.

only way i would advocate a shove is if the cutoff was a complete calling station and culd make a call here with kq aj or a10, which is highly unlikely that he would have lasted this long.

**daneblazer** · 06-11-13, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by thetrinity

i kinda agree with hockey, just because the cutoff had been agressively opening with a big stack doesnt mean that hes calling with a lot of bad hands in this spot.

i dont really see the cutoff calling the shove with a worse hand either, plus since theres an all in, you can expect passive play (ie checking it down) between the bb and the caller to try and eliminate the other player.

All the info on him was that he was "taking advantage of the table" so I assume he's a lag or bad lag. The short stacks shoving range is huge and usually a lag's call range will be wide there so usually the optimal play is to isolate your AQ vs the short stacks huge range and the lagtard's dead money.

Given the info I have on the CO now, I don't think I'm ever calling there. I don't really want to put in 4500 there and fold to a lot of flops and I'm not trapping the lag with AQs oop with another player in the mix. If he's pushing people around what makes us believe he's just going to check it down to show down? We're close to being on the bubble but the min cash isn't even 2x the buy in so I don't even think ICM plays that big of a role here. There's also antes to go with the blinds which are moving up fast, so we can't just say he has 35bb and make a decision from there like there are no antes. I think BB played the CO's range and just hit the top of it, now people are questioning his play because he lost.

I haven't played tournaments in a while so I'm a bit rusty there...I usually don't have to worry about getting knocked out on the bubble in cash games.

**Emily_Haines** · 06-11-13, 03:02 PM

most of time the player calls and the two players not all in check it down

**thetrinity** · 06-12-13, 06:34 PM

Originally posted by Emily_Haines

most of time the player calls and the two players not all in check it down

very standard in tournaments unless the cutoff was a complete dolt.

no sense in bluffing someone out of a pot when another player is going to see all 5 cards.

**hockey216** · 06-14-13, 06:31 AM

Originally posted by thetrinity

bb shoved cutoff calls with jacks bb goes home.

i kinda agree with hockey, just because the cutoff had been agressively opening with a big stack doesnt mean that hes calling with a lot of bad hands in this spot.

i dont really see the cutoff calling the shove with a worse hand either, plus since theres an all in, you can expect passive play (ie checking it down) between the bb and the caller to try and eliminate the other player.

i think if the bb has less chips like say around 20000 then an all in is better, because you could get a more gambly type call out of the cutoff with his big stack.

and if you call and lose, you still have 30 bbs left which is a decent stack for this stage of the tournament.

only way i would advocate a shove is if the cutoff was a complete calling station and culd make a call here with kq aj or a10, which is highly unlikely that he would have lasted this long.

bet was only 5500... when a guy shoves for 30,000 on top of that, guys not calling without big pair (or if hes hero, AK). Losing bet because the only hand that calls you beats you. awful play. you call and see a flop. if you miss flop get out. you aren't comitted only 5k. you still got 30k left with bb only 1000 you have big stack to play with. what the fck you shoving with aq for? guy made a moron play with ace high and got what he deserved.

**hockey216** · 06-14-13, 06:34 AM

Originally posted by daneblazer

All the info on him was that he was "taking advantage of the table" so I assume he's a lag or bad lag. The short stacks shoving range is huge and usually a lag's call range will be wide there so usually the optimal play is to isolate your AQ vs the short stacks huge range and the lagtard's dead money.

Given the info I have on the CO now, I don't think I'm ever calling there. I don't really want to put in 4500 there and fold to a lot of flops and I'm not trapping the lag with AQs oop with another player in the mix. If he's pushing people around what makes us believe he's just going to check it down to show down? We're close to being on the bubble but the min cash isn't even 2x the buy in so I don't even think ICM plays that big of a role here. There's also antes to go with the blinds which are moving up fast, so we can't just say he has 35bb and make a decision from there like there are no antes. I think BB played the CO's range and just hit the top of it, now people are questioning his play because he lost.

I haven't played tournaments in a while so I'm a bit rusty there...I usually don't have to worry about getting knocked out on the bubble in cash games.

Nobody is calling 30k more all in when only 5k invested with AJ or weaker. of the calling hands, which hands do you beat? None. Zero. it doesnt matter if cutoff agressive. aggressive is diff than making donkey calls. he called a 5x raise for 5k... when another player shoves for 35k (30k more)=35 big blinds, he would have to be a 100% moron to call with anything weaker than aq. you think a guy is gonna call 30k when only has 5k invested with AJ or weaker? nobody calling there with AJ or weaker for 35k when only 5k invested especially when action finalized and no chance of stealing later in position. only hand that calls you beats you. absolutely retarded play. you call. and its a shove all in so action finalized, so its not like the cutoff can make thin call preflop to try to outagress you postflop in position. theres 0% chance he calls with AJ or weaker. Especially that late in tournament when the donks are out. You think the guys gonna call 35k shove when only 5k invested with AT or AJ or weaker? No way. What hands does he call with that you beat? None.

im not criticizing play bc he lost. i said it was retarded play before i even heard the outcome. nobody calling there with AJ or weaker especially with action finalized and no bluffing potential. a call there with AT or AJ is so THIN you can't expect opponent to do it. and its not worth isolating. you dont make a 6x raise to isolate. losing equity in long run because you're risking a lot (35k) to win a little (5k) dead money. not worth it.

you call that with AQ. if he had 12k or something, i see the allin because he approaches pot commitment by calling 5k, so why not get it in? but when he has 35k and big blind only 1000 (35 big blinds), you can call 5k . even with the ante you still have an M of around 20. thats deep stack for tournament. worst case you miss flop and dont lose more money and still have minimum 30 big blinds. 30x big blind is a good stack in tournament. especially that close to money. even if tail end is shit who knows you got 30bb you might be able to ride good run and finish higher. you aren't in danger of getting blinded out. absolutely retarded shove. im glad he lost (no offense). he got what he deserved.

His stack was WAY TOO BIG to shove there. He was a big-stack wtf he doing blowing it all on aq?

**hockey216** · 06-14-13, 07:00 AM

if you're shoving preflop every hand thin, its only a short matter of time before someone picks up a hand and burns you.

**daneblazer** · 06-14-13, 02:02 PM

WSOP millionaire maker $1500 event AQs big blind - High Stakes MTT Strategy - High Stakes MTT Forum

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/87/high-stakes-mtt/wsop-millionaire-maker-1500-event-aqs-big-blind-1339857/

10 handed Blinds are 500-1000, ante 100, blinds increasing to 600-1200 in 10 min, about 720 ppl left with average stack size around 38K, money starts a

There's another discussion about it. Curiously, the opinion is split between calling & shoving.

You aren't trying to get a call when you shove, you're hoping to get a fold and create dead money vs the short stacks wide range. One thing I don't like about these questions is you're depending on someone else's read and definition of "pushing the table around". Is he a maniac with like a 50/40 line who could likely only be flatting with 99+ or is he a 40/2 station type who calls with half the deck and turns bet crazy on the flop? That makes a huge difference. I'm making my play based on the assumption he's calling with big range there and only calling my shove with a small amount of hands. And fwiw, we have blockers to AA, AK, and QQ which dominate us. The tighter he is w/ his 2nd calling range relative to his original calling range, I suppose the more of a case you can make for calling and reevaluating to the point where if you think the CO's calling range is that tight, we may even want to consider folding as nitty as that sounds.

As far as checking it down, yea it does happen in tournaments, but its over rated except in times where you can move up in the prize structure. I don't consider 70 away from a 1.5x buy prize one of those times. The reasons why we bet are to (1) get worse hands to call (value bet) (2) get better hands to fold (bluff) (3)to collect dead money (4) when we have a value hand and we want to prevent it from getting outdrawn.

If the flop is something like 733 with two of your suited cards or something like AT9, you check, and he fires, you're going to have a tough time laying that down. More often that not if you flat vs an aggressive player with a big chip stack, you are going to whiff on the flop, check, and he is going to fire. I don't really want to play passively to min-cash here. If the min cash is like 15k then it's a little different. I do think that flatting with the hope of a friendly check down the worse play...though the guy flat calling the short stacks shove with JJ is kinda puzzling

**daneblazer** · 06-14-13, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by hockey216

even with the ante you still have an M of around 20.

It's 14 now (35000/ (500 + 1000 +1000)) ...though this was left off the thread the blinds are about to go up to 600/1200 so your "M" is soon to be 10 with a call and fold.

This has been an interesting hand. Thanks for the discussion.

**thetrinity** · 06-14-13, 06:21 PM

thanks dane thats where i stole it from

and yes it seemed like opinion was split, i really have no problem with the cutoff calling at all, i think the big blind was the biggest stack behind him from what i remember reading so he was content calling off chips with the 4th best hand, a raise would have likely chased every one out aside from premiums.

another thing i dont like about the big blinds all in is that it looks a lot like it was, a big ace. the cutoff could have easily afforded to make a call with a worse pair with his stack.

now, going the other route, lets say cutoff called with like a8 suited. if you just call and the flops a whiff say 3510 rainbow, hes never ever betting in that spot to protect the other all in. he may not even bet if he hits an ace, i personally wouldnt bet without at least 2 pair

**James D** · 06-14-13, 06:25 PM

Originally posted by Emily_Haines

most of time the player calls and the two players not all in check it down

This early in a tournament the checking down does not happen with a player all in. Especially with 16k in the pot and each player with 30k more behind.

I personally would just flat call with AQ. You still have 30 big blinds if you lay this hand down after the flop if you miss and you are getting close to the money bubble. Pushing here is too aggressive for me

**hockey216** · 06-15-13, 05:02 PM

The +EV from dead money is less than the -EV from shove. Depending on what initial shoved had, your equity only up about 2.5k from dead money if you're flipping... You are risking 35,000 to win 2.5k. Aka he only needs like a 7% chance of having better than AQ for it to be worse play. If he has AK or a pair your shove is in trouble. If he has ak, qq-aa (most likely calling hands as many players fold the smaller pairs) you are toast. It's not good to get in habit of raising 35k to win 2.5k. He only has to beat you probably 10-15% of time to make play worse EV. You have 35k if someone opens 5k you call with AQ. If u miss flop u ony lose 5k and still have 30bb left (pretty big stack). Don't go all in 35k to win 2.5k dead money (EV of 5k if 50/50). You have to be monumental favorite to risk 35k to win 2.5k. AQ is not that big a hand to be 95% or whatever likely to be ahead. It's close to bubble. He could even ride out his 30bb stack deep in money he not In trouble yet. Why throw it all away on ace high preflop? Especially close to money. You call 5k. Don't out whole stack in jeopardy. If he got 12k I see te shove but not 35k. Can't risk 35k to win 2.5k that's much worse EV than calling.

**hockey216** · 06-15-13, 05:11 PM

You have big stack close to money. Ride it out get paid who knows you can run deep. Run good and make top 100. You can't risk 35k to win 2.5k dead money. You can do that and might get away with it few times but it will only be short while until someone with big pair (or AK) calls and stacks you. Guys that play like that don't last 5 hours. They always busy early and never realize that you don't need to get it all in preflop with AQ unless short. When ur big stack preserve it. Call and see a flop. Don't put 35,000 in just to win EV of 2.5k dead money. You're not that big a favorite even if you're 90% sure he doesn't have big pair or ak its still losing bet. And you're never 90% sure thd guy can make call with pair and smash you. Nobody calls with at or aj or a2-a9. Only hand that calls you beats you. Not worth risking 35 to win 2.5 he only needs like a 8% probability or whatever of beating AQ for you to be in terrible shape. AQ ain't that big a favorite. Call and see flop. You're big stack ride tr money out run deep and get paid when u got 30bb u don't need to shove AQ.

**thetrinity** · 06-17-13, 09:47 AM

Originally posted by James D

This early in a tournament the checking down does not happen with a player all in. Especially with 16k in the pot and each player with 30k more behind.

I personally would just flat call with AQ. You still have 30 big blinds if you lay this hand down after the flop if you miss and you are getting close to the money bubble. Pushing here is too aggressive for me

how is this early in the tournament

almost 90% of the field is finished.

and yes it certainly does happen in wsop events, why would anyone with half a brain bet a 358 flop with kj if someone was all in?

if you didnt think it was going to be checked down (i duno why you wouldnt) that would be more of an argument to push IMO.

**thetrinity** · 06-17-13, 10:06 AM

some people in the other thread suggested making it like 12500 which i think is a horrible idea. first if you got called you would be making a side pot, giving him incentive to try and push you out, completely different situation then a dry side pot. second the same result happens anyways that happened here if he flatted with a big hand. in real time, id probably be thinking i have the best hand but im not getting called on an all in unless im beaten. overall in tournaments, these type of spots its always better to error on the side of caution.

**daneblazer** · 06-17-13, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by thetrinity

some people in the other thread suggested making it like 12500 which i think is a horrible idea.

I don't know if I've ever seen a hand where so many people advocate so many different things from Calling to shoving to folding to raising 12500. Raising 12,500 is pretty rough. CO has giving no indication he will fold for 7000 more chips and you're now playing for a bigger pot oop.

**daneblazer** · 06-17-13, 10:40 AM

Originally posted by thetrinity

how is this early in the tournament

almost 90% of the field is finished.

and yes it certainly does happen in wsop events, why would anyone with half a brain bet a 358 flop with kj if someone was all in?

if you didnt think it was going to be checked down (i duno why you wouldnt) that would be more of an argument to push IMO.

He's likely calling with a pocket pair type hand or Ax, maybe KJ KQ. If the flop is something like J24 or almost any non-Ace flop and he's holding any pocket pair he's an idiot for not protecting his hand with a short stack who is basically pushing with any two cards.

People get all worked up about checking down in tournaments as if it's always the smart thing to do when in fact there's not many times that it actually makes sense to do so. If we're directly on the bubble and the min cash a decent amount, check it down. If we're at the final table and the prize pool jumps significantly per player eliminated, check it down. If I completely whiffed on the flop or it's something like 678s I'm praying for a check down. If we have a Phil Ivey or some other superior player all-in, check it down. Otherwise you're better off betting for value and protecting your hand. 70 away from a small cash? I'm still protecting my hand.