US House panel clears anti-Internet gambling bill

[bigboydan]

WASHINGTON, March 15 (Reuters) - A U.S. House committee on Wednesday approved a bill aimed at stamping out the $12 billion Internet gambling industry by stopping businesses from accepting credit cards and other forms of payment.

The bill, cleared by voice vote in the House Financial Services Committee, would prohibit a gambling business from accepting credit cards, checks, wire transfers and electronic funds transfers in illegal gambling transactions.

Unlawful gambling, under the legislation, would include placing bets on online poker sites, for example, and any other online wager made or received in a place where such a bet is illegal under federal or state law.

By making it illegal to accept payments from people who live where federal or state law prohibits wagering, the legislation would impact offshore gambling Web sites used by many Americans to place bets.

The legislation carves out some exceptions, including wagering on horse races, governed under another U.S. law, and fantasy sports.

The bill now moves to the House floor for consideration.

Major professional sports organizations supported the legislation, including the National Football League and Major League Baseball, saying in a joint statement that sports betting "threatens the integrity of our respective sports."

But Massachusetts Democratic Rep. Barney Frank, the top Democrat on the House committee, opposed the bill. He said Congress should not seek to control how adults spend their money just because some lawmakers oppose gambling.

"Adults are entitled to do with their money what they want to do," he said.

A group called the Poker Players Alliance opposed the legislation as well.

"It is disingenuous to oppose Internet gambling and then write a bill that makes select forms of online gambling legal," said Michael Bolcerek, president of the group.

U.S. efforts to outlaw Internet gambling also have been opposed by the Caribbean state of Antigua, which has been trying to build up its Internet gambling industry as a way to make up for sharply declining tourism revenue.

http://today.reuters.com/investing/financeArticle.aspx?type=bondsNews&storyID=2006-03-15T174222Z_01_N15403811_RTRIDST_0_CONGRESS-FINANCIAL-GAMBLING.XML

[presley177]

anyone else a little worried?

[Willie Bee]

I'm more worried about just how the donkeys and elephants in DC will eventually regulate it (tax it).

Here's another read on this...

IGC Report/Commentary on HR 4411

The shortsighted and unrealistic stance of the U.S. government fails to provide U.S. consumers the same protections they get in real-world casinos, denies millions of dollars of business opportunity to U.S. casino firms, and keeps Wall Street companies from participating in an expanding industry. In recent years, when several Internet gambling companies listed their shares on the London Stock Exchange, U.S. investment bankers were unable to compete for that lucrative underwriting business.

The last section of H.R. 4411 requires the Secretary of the Treasury to report to Congress annually on “any deliberations between the United States and other countries on issues relating to Internet gambling.” If this bill becomes law, the report on deliberations with Britain will be interesting reading. Britain’s new Gambling Commission is beginning consultations on how it will license and regulate all forms of gambling, including what the British call “remote gambling.” The new regulations will take effect in 2007, with applications for remote gambling licenses expected to be accepted later this year. The British government has said that sites it licenses will be free to take bets from the U.S.
...
This may be the last year for the annual charade in Congress over Internet gambling prohibition. Last month, in a special report on Forbes.com called “Sneak Peek 2006,” Matthew Miller predicted: “Internet gambling will be regulated by 2007 at latest. Lawmakers will be forced to take morality out of the online-gambling debate and license, regulate and tax the industry -- as they have with vices like land-based gambling, alcohol, cigarettes and pornography.”

[Maddog Lucas]

I think it's more a case of sword rattling - have to keep bible belt happy and feelin safe from the big bad world. So now they can say they tried.

[gamblingman]

Posted: 15 Mar 2006 02:33 pm Post subject: CBS reports I-Gaming: Illegal And Thriving

This is from nov 2005--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nigel Payne runs Sportingbet, one of the world’s biggest online gambling companies. (CBS)


(CBS) The point of making something illegal is to stop people from doing it, and penalize them if they do.

Then there’s Internet gambling. The federal government is clear: gambling on the Internet is against the law. And yet millions of Americans do it on hundreds of Web sites, to the tune of billions of dollars.

While Internet gaming is illegal in the United States, correspondent Lesley Stahl reports it is absolutely thriving.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the virtual casinos of the Internet, you can bet on anything. Spin the wheels on slot machines and roulette, roll the dice in backgammon and craps. You can wager on any sport.

Or take a seat at Partypoker.com, where you’re playing against real people who could be anywhere on Earth. At any given moment, there can be hundreds of thousands of people gambling on sites like Partypoker.com.

“There’ll be more online poker games per day at the end of this year than all of the casinos in the entire world put together. It’s a huge business,” says Nigel Payne, who runs Sportingbet, one of the world’s biggest online gambling companies.

For Payne, one big reason online gaming is such a lucrative business is that because he doesn’t face the costs traditional casinos do. “I don’t need a hotel. I don’t need any croupiers. I don’t need any cocktail waitresses. I don’t have to comp any drinks. I don’t have to comp any hotel rooms.”

And players don’t ever need to leave their homes. Just type in a credit card or bank account number and you’ll be betting within minutes.

Internet gaming companies will make $10 billion in profit this year. They’re all based overseas, but as much as 80 percent of their traffic – and profit - comes from the U.S.

“I believe there’s about 12 and a half million Americans today use internet gambling in its widest form. That’s a hell of a lot of consumer power,” says Payne.

It’s so much power that America’s gaming industry, which has long opposed Internet gambling, is shifting its position.

“I think the issue is very simple: that you should license it, regulate it and tax it,” says Terri Lanni, the CEO of MGM/Mirage.



Nigel Payne runs Sportingbet, one of the world’s biggest online gambling companies. (CBS)


(CBS)
Lanni says if his company could offer Internet gambling, it could instantly double its $8 billion-a-year revenues. “If we could add our brand, and the credibility of the publicly-traded United States gaming company, this could be a vast business,” Lanni says.

But MGM/Mirage is shut out, because the government says a law banning sports betting over the phone also bans all gambling on the Internet.

Obviously, it hasn’t stopped U.S. citizens from doing it, but it has stopped U.S. companies from offering it.

“The vast majority of wagers that are placed on the Internet now are done offshore and illegally. And I for one think that to enact laws that you can’t enforce makes no sense whatsoever,” says Lanni.

Lanni and MGM/Mirage set up their own offshore gambling Web site a few years ago, but to stay within the law, they only accepted bets from gamblers outside the U.S.

Lanni says the site didn’t make any money and was eventually shut down. He calls the U.S. government’s current position on online gaming odd: “There’s no doubt about it. There’s gaming in every state but two states in the United States. If it’s legal there, and it’s regulated and taxed and we’re comfortable with it there, why don’t we allow it also in the area of Internet where people – so much commerce is going through the Internet right now? It makes no sense.”

Even so, no one in Congress is pushing for legalization. In fact, Senator Jon Kyl, Republican of Arizona, is going the other way; he has a bill designed to really crack down on what he calls a “social pathology.”

“It’s so easy to do. It’s so easy for kids to do. It’s so addictive. And it has frequently been demonstrated that there’s a lot of graft and corruption in this,” says Sen. Kyl.

Kyl’s bill aims to choke off the money by prohibiting U.S. banks and credit card companies from handling any online gambling transactions.

The senator admits that his bill may not completely stop online gaming. “We may not be able to stop it all, but if we can stop the major part of it that’s coming from offshore, I think we will have done something very, very good,” he says.

Kyl bristles at how law enforcement currently does nothing to go after offshore operators.

At a big convention of the international gambling industry in Las Vegas, there was an entire pavilion dedicated to Internet gaming. Many of the top executives attended, despite the fact that their business is illegal in the U.S.

So why doesn’t the FBI or justice department make arrests at the convention?

“The Justice Department says ‘We have lots of other priorities,’ and they’re right,” says Steve Lipscomb, the founder and CEO of the “World Poker Tour” TV show, which helped fuel the craze for Internet gambling.

“You and I don’t want them chasing after the guys who are putting online poker. We want them to make sure that the next terrorist attack is not likely to happen. So I believe their priorities are straight. It’s simply that by not enforcing, they’re making it entirely inequitable,” says Lipscomb.

Asked to explain, Lipscomb says, “They keep the legitimate companies out of the business, and all of that goes to offshore companies that in no way can be regulated…. or taxed.”

Those offshore companies are so brazen, they advertise. There are banners pulled by airplanes, ads in magazines, and commercials all over cable TV.
How can a cable network air an ad for an illegal activity? It’s all in the fine print.

One ad was not for paradisepoker.com, where you can gamble, but for paradisepoker.net, which they call an “educational” site.

“You can play for free on those sites and learn about how to play poker,” says Lipscomb.

The .net site can advertise because there is no money involved, so it is not considered gambling. But with their identical logos and brand names, the obvious goal is to draw people from the free.net site over to the real gambling.com site.

“They are certainly spending a lot of money to educate people about the game of poker,” says Lipscomb.

Many of those being educated are kids. And many of those kids then try to play for real.

Sen. Jon Kyl says that’s the biggest danger in online gambling. “Our kids have access to the Internet. They’re frequently not supervised. And you can run up a huge debt on your folks’ credit card very, very quickly.”

To test that theory, 60 Minutes gave Alex Hartman, the 16-year-old son of this story’s producer, his dad’s **********.

According to Nigel Payne, whose company owns paradisepoker.com, Alex isn’t likely to be able to gain access to or place bets on any of his sites, despite having his dad’s credit card. “That 16-year-old has got to give me four or five pieces of information about him relative to his bank account, his personal details, where he lives and other things. So I can be 99 percent comfortable that this 16-year-old doesn’t even get through my front door.”

And it appears that he’s right. As Alex attempted to register with Paradise Poker, something made the computer suspicious about him. Warnings kept popping up – “You must be 18 or older” – and then he was rejected.

But then Alex did what most kids would: he tried another site, and another. On the third try, without any questions about his age, he was approved. In five minutes, Alex was playing roulette.

Just ten minutes later, he was $100 in the hole.

Payne agrees that the pool of potential underage gamblers is bigger than for traditional casinos. “Without doubt. Which is why we have to be 20 times better. But it’s also why we HAVE to be regulated.”

Payne argues that if the U.S. legalized Internet gaming, all of the problems associated with gambling could be controlled better.

Addiction to gambling, says Payne, is a huge problem both online and at traditional casinos. And he says online gambling may be better equipped to deal with the issue, since players can be tracked electronically.

“Imagine you’re an addicted gambler, ok? You try to reload your account too quickly because you’re playing too quickly. Stop. I’ve got a closed loop of data. I can actually track what you’re doing,” says Payne.

Sen. Kyl is skeptical. “So some outfit in Aruba decides that somebody is gambling too much on their Web site. What are they going to do? Knock on somebody’s door and say, ‘You know, we think you’re gambling a little too much on our line here, you probably ought to knock it off.’ That’s not going to happen.”

The senator doesn’t think legalizing or regulating the industry will make a difference. “Most of this is done in foreign countries. So even if we try to create some kind of standards, it’s not to say that it’s going to be enforced by a foreign government.”

In other words, says Kyl, anybody can put up a site.

But Payne says that ina regulated environment, disreputable companies or gambling websites won’t last long, as “consumers vote with their feet.”

“Trust is an immense factor. If you say to an American consumer, ‘This site is trusted and licensed and this one isn’t,’ I promise you within 12 months the problems you’re referring to will have disappeared or significantly reduced, because customers will have voted with their feet.”

Sixty-four countries already license online casinos, and they’re not just a bunch of banana republics.

“The United Kingdom has passed laws to enact Internet gambling. The United Kingdom expressly allows United Kingdom operators to take bets from American citizens,” says Payne.

The British have legalized online gambling, even though they know our government considers it illegal. Britain has become the new center of online gaming and several companies, including Payne’s, are traded on the London Stock Exchange and pay British taxes.

“We’ve calculated that were America to have regulated the industry in 2004, the American states would have earned $1.2 billion in tax,” says Payne.

He says if the U.S. regulated the industry, he would pay the taxes owed in America by his British company. “And we have volunteered to pay it because this is an industry that has to be regulated.”

MGM/Mirage’s Lanni believes online gaming will be regulated, and legalized.

When? Lanni says he is not sure. “I think it’s when an enlightened president with an enlightened attorney general says, ‘It’s legal in all these states, we tax it, we regulate it. Let’s do it, and let’s do it for the Internet.’”

Payne doesn’t think people will ever stop gambling.

“Do you think the Internet’s suddenly going to go away? So what are we going to do in ten years time, when this industry is ten times bigger than it is today?” ask Payne. “I often say to people, ‘Please give me one solid plausible argument why you shouldn’t regulate it.’”

And Payne rejects the argument that it is bad for you. “If you regulate it, you control it. If you regulate it, you set limits. Is that bad, when the comparator is ‘Ah, just let them do what they want.’ Is that really bad? I don’t think it is.”

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/11/17/60minutes/main1052420.shtml

[Dark Horse]

Funny shit.

Those morons invest heavily in the weapon, oil, and pharmaceutical industries, and would invest in the huge gambling industry as well, if they didn't suck so bad at it.

No worries. All window dressing. This can't be regulated. The worse thing that could happen is that funds would have to be send by Western Union.

[The Great One]

Funny shit.

Those morons invest heavily in the weapon, oil, and pharmaceutical industries, and would invest in the huge gambling industry as well, if they didn't suck so bad at it.
.

Thats some funny shi t right there. True, but funny.

[pags11]

they really need to go worry about something else...

[isetcap]

anyone else a little worried?

Completely unconcerned.

[imgv94]

Please answer this question guys.

Between 0%-100% What is the chance
We will not be able to gamble online in 5 years?

[isetcap]

Please answer this question guys.

Between 0%-100% What is the chance
We will not be able to gamble online in 5 years?

Zero Percent Chance

[BigDog]

Zero Percent Chance

I agree 100% with this comment.Matter of fact online gambling will only grow and get bigger.I believe 5 yrs from now we will possibly be taxed somehow but it will not be stopped

[imgv94]

I hope you guys are right. Anyone else have an opinion on this? Please
speak up. Thank you isetcap and bigdog for your input.

[datek23]

Impossible to control 50 million bettors no matter how much they say it is illegal. Just not humanly possible. Same as drugs, just absolutely no way to control no matter if you bust 10,000 criminals a day for a year, just cannot be controlled.

[imgv94]

Impossible to control 50 million bettors no matter how much they say it is illegal. Just not humanly possible. Same as drugs, just absolutely no way to control no matter if you bust 10,000 criminals a day for a year, just cannot be controlled.

The government doesn't want to stop drug use in
this country. This country would go down in 3 weeks
if drugs were taken away. Less demand for police,
lawyers,judges,rehab centers,jail and prison guards,
bail bondsman,and many more professions. Alot
of jobs would be lost. Alot of money would be taken
away.

[The Great One]

I have a question.

As they are trying to pass this bill, how can it become law. In other words, if they make an announcement saying no American is allowed to use any of these sites. What do they do. Tell all ISP's to block these sites out to Americans. yeah, that screams FREE COUNTRY MY ASS. Fine credit card companies for taking deposits? What about western union. People use that everyday to transfer money to friends and family. What happens to that.

These offshore books will not want to stop working with Americans will they? There will always be a way to get our $$ over there, right?

I would like to know Goodlatte's answer on this. What is their exact plan of action to control it? Thats the question these constituents should be asking. Then after he gets that dumb look on his face. Haandcuff, beat him with a night stick for 40 days and 40 nights. Starve him. No food no water. Watch him die and make sure every American has a time slot to piss and shit on him in the process.

[imgv94]

You make great points TGO. Your right they can make it a little more
difficult for us but it seems all but impossible for them to block "our" access
to online gambling.

[BigDog]

This issue can be compared to radars and radar detectors.Everytime there is a new type of radar,immediately will follow a new radar detector for that signal.Too much money involved for this to stop.If it wasn't about the money they could just make radar dectors illegal in every state.

With this said,there is absolutely NO comparison between the money of the radar/radar detector industry and online gambling and its too big with too much involved to be stopped.Our govt might(and I do mean,might) find a way to tax it but they'll NEVER stop it

[imgv94]

Very good thread. Exactly the kind of thread that makes a forum great!
Great input fellas!!

[The Great One]

And even if by some miracle it passes and they think they can make it work. Don't they realize there will be 1,000's of local shops opening up everywhere around the country and then you know the crime and murder rate will skyrocket when someone thinks they've been scammed. maybe, thats what they want. More crime= more jobs.

Pathetic, I just don't understand why people have to touch issues that have nothing to do with.

This would be like me protesting and starting riots and marching on Washington over gay marriages. It just doesn't concern me. I don't give 2 shits if people I don't know and have no contact with get married. I just hate that every politician acts like they have to touch every single issue.

[TLD]

“Please answer this question guys.

“Between 0%-100% What is the chance
We will not be able to gamble online in 5 years?”

If the questions is interpreted as “Will at least one person be willing and able to place at least one wager online in 5 years?” then of course the answer is yes. No matter how difficult, expensive, risky, etc. you make it, some small minority of people will find a way to do it anyway. So there’s a 0% chance we will not be able to gamble online, if you take it in that extreme sense.

But I thought the spirit of the question was more like: “Will one of these anti-gambling bills eventually make it into law, and as a result will the offshore gambling world as we now know it largely disappear (for Americans)?” In other words, will most customers cease betting offshore?, will most offshore books that cater to Americans cease operating?, for the few remaining players and books willing to jump through all the hoops and take whatever legal risks there are will it be harder to make any money (because so many squares will be gone)?, will businesses like Neteller that cater to the offshore industry be gone or be reorganized into some other kind of business?, etc.

My answer to that, admittedly as a gut level guess, would be that there’s a 40% chance the way we are able to bet online now will be wiped out some time in the next five years.

[The Great One]

“Please answer this question guys.

“Between 0%-100% What is the chance
We will not be able to gamble online in 5 years?”

If the questions is interpreted as “Will at least one person be willing and able to place at least one wager online in 5 years?” then of course the answer is yes. No matter how difficult, expensive, risky, etc. you make it, some small minority of people will find a way to do it anyway. So there’s a 0% chance we will not be able to gamble online, if you take it in that extreme sense.

But I thought the spirit of the question was more like: “Will one of these anti-gambling bills eventually make it into law, and as a result will the offshore gambling world as we now know it largely disappear (for Americans)?” In other words, will most customers cease betting offshore?, will most offshore books that cater to Americans cease operating?, for the few remaining players and books willing to jump through all the hoops and take whatever legal risks there are will it be harder to make any money (because so many squares will be gone)?, will businesses like Neteller that cater to the offshore industry be gone or be reorganized into some other kind of business?, etc.

My answer to that, admittedly as a gut level guess, would be that there’s a 40% chance the way we are able to bet online now will be wiped out some time in the next five years.

How would it be enforced? I asked a few quesions about 5 posts up. I'd like someone in the know to answer those because to me it can not enforced.

Even if they shut sites down, books could still e-mail their cards to you everyday and you could e-mail or phone wagers in.

I guess it would be more difficult, but the nature of the United States is to act like they are all strict on certain things and after a period of times passes, they lapse real quick. Take airport security for example. After 9-11 they checked your grandma's shoes 21 times in the airport and lines were long, Now, your allowed to carry on small clippers and such like that.

I just can't stress it enough. This country is extremely weak and i could run it better working 14 hours a wek in office.

[pags11]

why do they have to mess with my passion?...I'll be betting in five years one way or another...

[imgv94]

Well you have Casinos with open hands in your backyard. Your alright.

[TLD]

"How would it be enforced? I asked a few quesions about 5 posts up. I'd like someone in the know to answer those because to me it can not enforced."


As of now, Maryland residents can’t use Neteller, Paypal cut off all transactions they knew were for gambling, various credit cards can’t be used for gambling, Western Union harasses many people who try to use it for gambling transactions, etc. As a result of this or some future bill, they would just squeeze the various money transfer options even tighter, eliminating most and making the remaining ones a royal pain in the ass.

Yes, there will be the hardy few who have a contact in Canada who will set up an anonymous Swiss bank account for them, from which they can wire money to a Caribbean bank, where a sportsbook representative picks it up under an assumed name, etc., and then they can get today’s card e-mailed to them so they can make their bets. But those hardy few would not be able to sustain an offshore industry anything remotely like the present one.

So I definitely think it matters that these bills that seem to come up every year or so not make it into law.

[Chuck Sims]

The Republican party knows whats best for us. If we can keep them in power a little longer, they'll make it a crime to surf on the net for porn.

[natty]

I put this question in the other thread as well but It fits here too.

I have a question. Alot of times when a group or orginization wants to get a massive amount of people to write for a cause or purpose, someone will have a link to a standard letter professionally written explaining our concerns and we just add our name and address and click send and it's off to the right people. Does anyone know a link for this or have a letter that we could "cut and paste" with our own names in ofcourse.
It's important for us all to express our concerns about this to our gov't and that way always seems to work best. (wife did it before for the inhumane treatment of horses and it worked!)
Natty