Warning About William Hill

[CG]

I would like to thank Marc from SBR for his support with my issue. I thought I should share my problem with others to warn them about William Hill and their unacceptable ethics.

I have had an account with William Hill for over a year. I depositted, gambled and lost around $10K - $15K with them throughout this period via sports betting and poker. I usually used Western Union and Neteller to deposit funds as it was the easiest method for me. I won a few thousand dollars in the past as well which were sent back to me via Neteller or Western Union. Everything was going fine while I was a periodical loser...

Anyway recently, I placed a few good bets on Manchester City, Panathinakos (bball), Juventus, Werder Bremen, Barcelona and increased my bankroll to a mid $xxxx level and then decided to try my luck with poker once again. In the past, I turned $100 to $700-$800 within a couple of hrs but couldnt' get myself to leave the table while I was ahead and ended up loosing most of the time. This time however with a bit of luck and increased bankroll, I was able to take control of the tables, spot the fishes and win quite a bit. It is very easy to double your bankroll when you are sitting at a $10-$20 Texas Holdem No limit table where most players have over $2K infront of them and you dont' have much to loose...

So I won some more money playing poker, placed and lost a few bets and requested for a mid $xxxx withdrawal thinking that my run was probably close to the end and I should save some so that I can deposit and continue playing later on when I lost everything in my account which ALWAYS seemed the case when I requested a withdrawal. Needless to say, after I requested the withdrawal, I lost all the remaining funds in my account (high $xxxx amount) within one day...

This time however my losses were not enough. I guess I was over my winning limit ! William Hill suspended my account claiming that they were carrying out a regular security check and then sent me a message telling me that my account was closed for good due to "collusion" (which means cheating at the table by co-operating with one of the other players) and that they would never send me any of my winnings. I rejected their claims and requested them to send me their proof so that I can compare the hands with my own hand histories and try to get in touch with the players in question through their pokerroom and seek their assistance to disapprove their claims. They never bothered to reply back. I threatened them to take the matter up with IBAS, the independant regulating body which they are registered with however their reply was nothing more then a reflection of their intentions telling me that "IBAS regulate sports betting but do not regulate Casino or Poker play and as such they would not deal with your request. At present there is no governing body for Casino or Poker play...". I guess this was their way of saying that "we are FREE to do whatever we want and we can withold all our clients winnings anytime we want"...

I am really quite upset with the whole deal. I am from an east european country (not going to disclose the exact location unless needed as I am not after a patriotic argument over countries, nations and standards) and I simply think that they were very judgmental and acted with complete prejudice against a client due to his origin thinking that he will not have the power or means to go after them. Well, they were wrong.

I am currently in the process of reporting the situation to Gaming Board For Great Britain and The Gambling Commision as well as DCMS (Thanks Marc) and will try to get in touch with a few friends living in UK to see if they can find goverment body or ministry where I can report incidents such as these.

Last but not least as most sceptics say; there are always two sides to a story and believe me I would have loved to hear their side with their proof instead of their deregatory claim to confiscate my funds.

[Santo]

There is no governmental body (or arbitration panel) that regulates Casinos or Poker in the UK currently.

[tacomax]

www.casinomeister.com might be a good option since it's a gaming rather than sportsbook issue.

[LGBoots]

IBAS is the so called gambling watchdog in the UK, but they have about as much 'bite' as a mangy old mutt But it could be worth a try complaining to them.

http://www.ibas-uk.com/

Surprised that Hills are being like this they have a decent reputation here in the UK.

Hope things work out ok for you.

[marc]

I used to think that UK books were safer than COsta Rican books, but they are all the same. It's amazing to me, that when you call many of these UK books like Will Hill and Bet365 to discuss a player complaint, they always hide behind privacy laws, and tell you that they can't discuss the issue. So they are all very concerned about players privacy, but when it comes to player theft, thats ok.

WHen I tried to speak in general terms to UK, the manager explained that that there fraud department runs a number of different tests to determine if there was fraud, and if a players account fails those test, then they are confident that the player cheated. But they won't let any outside party reivew the aco****. So who is to know, if these tests that they conduct are evne accurate. There is a reason why we have a court system, and don't simply leave it to the police to arrest people and send them off to prison. When you have no requirement to actually prove your conclusions to anyone esle but yourself, you are sure to make mistakes. And when you make those mistakes, you won't care, becuas eyou won't even know. It's just way to easy to say, "you cheated, good bye."

When I aksed what is to prevent Will Hill from simply accusing any random person, of cheating, all he could say was that they wouldn't do that. It's not that they couldn't do it, but merely for now they wouldn't do it. When i tried to explain that from aplayers perspective, that is a very scary thought, that the mere allegation of cheating could cost you all of your funds, he simply dind't get it. The response is always we wouldn't do it, unless we were really sure.

WHen i suggested taking it to a licensed arbitrator, that wasn't an option. They will only share thier findings with the police.

The problem is, its not just Will Hill. Bet365 was the same way. Prima poker is notorious for this.

To be honest, I don't even care if someone does cheat. My concern is the process. If a book wants to accuse a player of cheating, the player deserves the right to defend himself. We afford that right to to murderers, we shoudl afford that right to players. For a book to confiscate a players funds, it should not be as easy as accusing the player of cheating. The book should have to prove it, and the player should have to be given the chance to defend himself.

I think someone needs to take the time to set up a poker arbitration board. And any book that refuses to agree to submit poker complaints to the arbitration board should get an automatic F for their poker room.

[bigboydan]

I used to think that UK books were safer than COsta Rican books, but they are all the same.

indeed they are marc. it's perty sad when a book can make up there own rules at anytime without anybody there to really regulate them properly, it's perty sad really.

[darkghost]

From a big online poker player this is a scary scenario to say the least. I too play on Will Hill and most of its sister sites. Hmm.. might be a time to make a withdrawal.
I really hate stories like this especially from sites that I thought were solid. So far this is the first complaint of this nature I've heard towards any of the crypto sites.

[FreddeSwe]

About UK and bokkmakers. SSP is the best example of how bad bookies can be licensed in UK. They have an INCREDIBLY POOR reputation for not paying customers money. Question is if they actually have paid someone last 5 years.

If they do not stop SSP, they won't stop anyone.

[BuddyBear]

Never played poker online and i stopped with the casinos....but this is a real sad story....i hope this gets resolved very soon.

[natrass]

A book should never benefit from making unilateral decisions away from the betting table. So William Hill are refunding the other players or are they just keeping the money?

Disgraceful. I expect a downgrade to be posted within a day. Its just theft.

[marc]

poker rooms always claim that they use the money to refund players losses. But I've never heard of a single player who receieved such a refund. My guess is that they first use the money to cover the administrative costs of running the investigation, and then after that that if there is any money maybe they will give some back to the players. But it would be so hard to determine which player was robbed, that it just becomes easier to keep the money

[pier0]

CG,

the Department of Culture won't give a damn to your claim and the Gambling Commission won't take up the responsabilty of regulating online companies until 2007...

Your best chance is to contact someone on a casino forum like the one mentioned by Tacomax...but if you're taken for a lot of money maybe you should contact a lawyer as Marc said Hills will share their findings with the police...

[pier0]

CG,

you may want to try to contact
info@gamblingcontrol.org,
which is the Alderney Gambling Control Commission where Crypto is licensed...

[natrass]

I think the police wont get involved ... they only deal in criminal cases and this is clearly a civil one.

The only legal option is really to hire a lwayer and, because gambling debts arent legally recognised, claim breach of contract (but then Id assume their T & Cs will cover this) regarding the nature of the deposited/gambled funds.

Realistically, W Hill seem to know where they stand (as marc's chat revealed) so you can :

1. Use IBAS. State strongly how intrinsically dishonest this is to a player. Get IBAS to state its position. They should find this hard to defend but may do so.

2. W Hill need to apply for a UK gambling licence. This is a serious issue and anyone is able to oppose its renewal. This may be a good avenue, particularly if you can find any others so affected.

3. Contact the Racing Post, RFO, etc and let WH answer for themselves where everyone can see.

4. Definately contact, as taco said, the casinomeister.

On the down side, sadly, I have read countless cases of (specifically) East European online poker players being accused of collussion that you may come up against a high degree of incredulity that your case is different.

For myself, i agree with marc 100%. Whether anyone hass cheated or not isnt the issue. You should be shown what you have done.

However, I believe collusion in this area is provable only by circumstantial evidence ... its not as though W Hill will ever be able to show an email in which someone confesses.

GL

[tacomax]

As marc said, WH will do pretty much what they want and no doubt their actions are covered in their T&Cs (most probably "our decision is final") so going down the IBAS route probably won't prove fruitful.

Your best bet is to go to casinomeister and see how you get on there - much like SBR, casinomeister go on the basis that you can get better results by pleading to their better nature. That's assuming they have one, though.

[steelerfan]

absolute horror story

[Scorpion]

uk books are garbage, **** them, bet365 is the shittiest book I have played at. This shit book cutr my limits after I won 1-2 K maybe less

[natrass]

uk books are garbage, **** them, bet365 is the shittiest book I have played at. This shit book cutr my limits after I won 1-2 K maybe less

A very eloquent young man there.

[jentude]

total horseshit, I don't get why these books think they can act like this, don't they care about their rep at all? I know there is cheating that goes on, but it really shouldnt be that hard for them to prove it , if they really think someone is cheating

[pags11]

crazy story here...

[mad]

Defamation is the way to go. These a-holes gotta realise they can't cheat their way out of trouble. If they were stupid enough to take your money and accuse you of cheating, then take them to court. Assuming of course you have hand histories and their original claims. Present your case and let them defend it.

[marc]

Basically there are two things the poker rooms will say. They might claim to actually have proof, but they don't want to present their evididence because it would reveal someof thier top secret cheating detection methods. Or one poker room , I think it was noble poker, even said, that alot of it is very subjective. And once thier staff makes a decision its final, and they simply won't endlessly debate the hand histories.

I realize there is cheating, but unless you are 100% certain, the best thing to do, is just kick the players out with a check in hand. ALso these books should randomly assign players to a table. Don't let players sit wherever they want, unless they want to play heads up.

[pags11]

threads like these make me glad I don't play poker online...

[natrass]

threads like these make me glad I don't play poker online...

Very true pags ... its like beat the table and then beat the commission ...

... as someone said above, at least dont let people choose where they sit?? Common sense or what?

[marc]

Here is another crazy thing. There is someone who was playing in WWts' poker room. Thei player and anohter player got flagged for collsuion. One of the things that they quickly noticed was that both players had at one time or another used the same computer. They were never logged on from the same computer at the same time. But one computer had clearly accessed both aco****s. So the players wre essentially told that we think you colluded, we know you know each other, and we're confiscating your money.

Now I know someone else who plays at party poker. And he went to a friends house who also plays at party poker, and he asked his friend if he could log into his aco****.. Ever since that day, party poker will not allow those two to play at the same table, because just as in the above case, it is now clear that these two know each other. But the difference is, Party poker didn't wait to see whether the two would collude. They took preventive action. That's probably why we don't see players coming in here saying that party poker stole thier money.

To me it looks like these poker rooms are just sitting back, waiting for the collusion to happen, so they can jump in and confiscate someone's money.