Casinos Vs Books

**David** · 10-16-05, 06:05 PM

That's probably why most sportsbooks have their own casino.

**Illusion** · 10-17-05, 12:04 AM

Originally posted by jjgold

Who makes more money?? I would think the casino end has passed the sports end as way more people will play slots online than bet sports.

What do you think?

Common knowledge is that online casinos are rigged. Sportsbook do more volume hands down.

**tacomax** · 10-17-05, 12:09 AM

Originally posted by Illusion

Common knowledge is that online casinos are rigged.

All of them? I'd really like to see some evidence.

There are a lot of rogues using rigged in-house software, but this is much the same as scam sportsbooks who never intend to pay you.

However, I've heard no conclusive evidence against the major software platforms.

**pags11** · 10-17-05, 04:44 PM

I would think the poker rooms would be the most profitable...practically no risk and a large group of potential customers to draw from...

**natrass** · 10-17-05, 04:56 PM

My own personal research tells me ... stay away from online casinos. Whether they are rigged or its just been my bad luck, it would be an unusual punter who finds online casinos more profitable than real ones.

Surely there software isnt absolutely 100% random, more like real life slots software, so there must be some element of "rigging".

**bigboydan** · 10-17-05, 05:06 PM

Originally posted by natrass

Surely there software isnt absolutely 100% random, more like real life slots software, so there must be some element of "rigging".

american coin comes to mind in regards to rigging slots and poker machines. a person can gap machines at any % they want the machine to pay out.

**tacomax** · 10-17-05, 05:15 PM

Originally posted by natrass

My own personal research tells me ... stay away from online casinos. Whether they are rigged or its just been my bad luck, it would be an unusual punter who finds online casinos more profitable than real ones.

Surely there software isnt absolutely 100% random, more like real life slots software, so there must be some element of "rigging".

Depends on your definition of rigged.

If rules of a game of blackjack give a payout of 99.46% and you hit that over the long term, then it's a fair game in my eyes.

I'll say again, I do not think that any of the major software platforms are rigged. If anyone can provide any evidence to the opposite then I'd be interested to see it.

**natrass** · 10-17-05, 05:29 PM

By law in the UK, I think Im right in saying, slot machines must have a minimum payout of 70%. That is, the software can be set so that they never pay out more than 70% of what they take.

That is why a slot machine never goes bankrupt. A real life casino could but an online couldn't for the same reasons.

That is, Id say, a pretty practical defination of "rigging" in anyones books.

**Max Levine** · 10-17-05, 05:30 PM

I put online gambling in 4 different categories: casino, poker, sports wagering and bingo. My opinion is there's more money being transferred in sports betting. I don't think there are many whales playing online casinos. I also believe that there are more people playing online poker than anything else.

As to the other subject, I agree with Taco: a respectable online casino operator with good financial resources has no reason to manipulate the RNG. Online casino is a profitable venture. No need to rig anything.

Max

**tacomax** · 10-17-05, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by natrass

That is why a slot machine never goes bankrupt. A real life casino could but an online couldn't for the same reasons.

You're saying that a real-life casino could go bankrupt but not an online one? I'm assuming that your saying online casinos are rigged - have you got any evidence to back this up?

You're forgetting the house edge which ensure a profit for the casino every single time - there's no need to adjust the payouts of anything. As long as the limits are set at a reasonable level and there are a sufficient level of bets to maintain a minimisation of variance, then a casino can basically print money.

Originally posted by natrass

That is, Id say, a pretty practical defination of "rigging" in anyones books.

I wouldn't say that UK slot machines are an example of rigging at all as long as they adhere to the terms of the law.

If the law dictates that slot machines pay out a minimum of 70% then a machine paying 71% can hardly be described as rigged.

To rig is to dishonestly manipulate for personal gain - if a machine is marked as "95% payout" but only pays 70% then that's a rigged game.

**tacomax** · 10-17-05, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by Max Levine

As to the other subject, I agree with Taco: a respectable online casino operator with good financial resources has no reason to manipulate the RNG. Online casino is a profitable venture. No need to rig anything.

Spot on.

An online casino makes it's money through the house edge. It has the advantage that it doesn't have the same level of overheads as a bricks and mortar casino (rent, dealer wages, building maintenance) which results in a lower cost of sales and higher margins.

Aside from there being no evidence that any respectable software provider rigs their games, there is also the fact that there is simply no need to do it in the first place.

**natrass** · 10-17-05, 06:22 PM

Originally posted by tacomax

I wouldn't say that UK slot machines are an example of rigging at all as long as they adhere to the terms of the law.

If the law dictates that slot machines pay out a minimum of 70% then a machine paying 71% can hardly be described as rigged.

.

So, they have their software "set" to "determine" they pay out 71% of reciepts.

But you "could hardly describe that as rigged".

Erm ... is there any situation which you would desribe as rigged?

**tacomax** · 10-17-05, 06:36 PM

Originally posted by natrass

So, they have their software "set" to "determine" they pay out 71% of reciepts.

But you "could hardly describe that as rigged".

Erm ... is there any situation which you would desribe as rigged?

My earlier post clearly explained it all, but I'll explain again.

I looked up a dictioary definition of rigged and, ignoring the seadog definitions, it said "To manipulate in a fraudulent manner".

If a fruit machine is meant to pay out 70% and it pays out 70% then how can you say it's rigged. Sure it's taking a 30% cut of the money fed into it but it's not fraudulently misrepresenting it's payout. In what way is a machine advertising a payout of 70% and actually paying out 70% is manipulating in a fraudulent manner?

On the flipside, if you take a machine that offers a payout of 98% but only actually pays out 70%. That is rigged. It says one thing and does another. It advertises a 98% payout but has been fraudulently manipulated to pay out 70%.

**Max Levine** · 10-17-05, 06:50 PM

Originally posted by natrass

So, they have their software "set" to "determine" they pay out 71% of reciepts.

But you "could hardly describe that as rigged".

Erm ... is there any situation which you would desribe as rigged?

An example would be an operator, or the software provider when the operator doesn't have access to the RNG, changing the payout to a lower % than what is expected and publicized. Say, for instance, a slots machine where the payout should be 97% is manipulated in order to decrease that percentage. That would be a dishonest manipulation, or rigged.

Max

**Max Levine** · 10-17-05, 06:52 PM

Originally posted by tacomax

My earlier post clearly explained it all, but I'll explain again.

I looked up a dictioary definition of rigged and, ignoring the seadog definitions, it said "To manipulate in a fraudulent manner".

If a fruit machine is meant to pay out 70% and it pays out 70% then how can you say it's rigged. Sure it's taking a 30% cut of the money fed into it but it's not fraudulently misrepresenting it's payout. In what way is a machine advertising a payout of 70% and actually paying out 70% is manipulating in a fraudulent manner?

On the flipside, if you take a machine that offers a payout of 98% but only actually pays out 70%. That is rigged. It says one thing and does another. It advertises a 98% payout but has been fraudulently manipulated to pay out 70%.

What he said, lol

I'll let you guys discuss this.

Max

**natrass** · 10-17-05, 06:59 PM

Originally posted by tacomax

My earlier post clearly explained it all, but I'll explain again.

I looked up a dictioary definition of rigged and, ignoring the seadog definitions, it said "To manipulate in a fraudulent manner".

If a fruit machine is meant to pay out 70% and it pays out 70% then how can you say it's rigged. Sure it's taking a 30% cut of the money fed into it but it's not fraudulently misrepresenting it's payout. In what way is a machine advertising a payout of 70% and actually paying out 70% is manipulating in a fraudulent manner?

On the flipside, if you take a machine that offers a payout of 98% but only actually pays out 70%. That is rigged. It says one thing and does another. It advertises a 98% payout but has been fraudulently manipulated to pay out 70%.

I think the term "rigged" in a gambling context is defined in terms of results being fixed or determined beforehand. I think the definition you quoted was more all embracing (elections, America's Funniest Home Video, etc).

I think I used the term rigged as describing something as not being 100% random, so its consistent in this very thread even.

That is, what happens next is determined by what has happened previously (to ensure the X% payout) ... and is not a "random" play.

To put it another way, if a slot machine can be set to pay out 70% (not 68% or 75% etc) then I bet any real life casino would love such specific short term consistency.

But, whatever, thats all a bit semantic.

So, I still say that the results of some slot machines are determined before the punter begins his play. Have you never heard anyone say something like "if you get two cherries only hold one one of them because X will happen".

But, whatver, good luck playing the online casinos tacomax ... let us know how you got on.

**tacomax** · 10-17-05, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by natrass

But, whatver, good luck playing the online casinos tacomax ... let us know how you got on.

I've been playing them for years and nothing I've seen has made me think that any of the main software providers deal a rigged game.

**natrass** · 10-17-05, 07:13 PM

Originally posted by tacomax

I've been playing them for years and nothing I've seen has made me think that any of the main software providers deal a rigged game.

Thats fair enough. As you say we don't know ... its one of those things that until they are caught you can't be totally certain.

But because they have the ability to do so then a lot of folk (myself included) prefer not to trust them.

Im still suspicious of sportsbooks, to be honest, so online casinos never had a chance with me.

Now, real life casinos ... I love them.

**pags11** · 10-18-05, 02:27 AM

natrass, I agree...I always think in a poker room some guy has all the cards rigged with an X-Files like software program...

**jjgold** · 10-18-05, 05:50 AM

Law of percentages just says you cannot beat casinos and actually have ZERO chance

**Ganchrow** · 10-18-05, 08:03 AM

Originally posted by natrass

Surely there software isnt absolutely 100% random, more like real life slots software, so there must be some element of "rigging".

I believe a number of online casino use thermal noise in zener diodes as the basis for random number generation. Others use the nuclear decay of a radioactive substance or captured cosmic rays. Insofar as these are all quantum phenomena, one could not hope for a more random process and they are, in fact, "more" random than the shuffling of a deck of card, the throwing of a pair of dice, or the spinning of a roulette wheel. (Unlike quantum phenomena these three macroscopic phenomena are not truly "random" in the mathematical sense, but merely chaotic).

**Max Levine** · 10-18-05, 10:13 AM

Natrass, this discussion has been going around message boards for quite a while now but it's always interesting. Don't take my contradicting you the wrong way. After all, as you say, nobody really knows. But...

In general, the major software providers are the ones controlling the Random Number Generator. Casino operators don't have access to it. As Taco mentioned, overheads are low for online casinos and the house edge allows a large margin of profit in the long run. Considering how much of a profitable business this represents, and the popularity of online casinos, if the software provider management were to ask their engineers and programmers to manipulate the RNG in the casino's favor, this could put an end to a billion dollar industry.

There has been instances in the past where a group of fraudsters were promoting their software to potential operators, emphasizing on the operator's ability to change the payout % at will. And I am sure they're still out there under a different name. But we're talking about less known providers.

Consider that a land-based casino is also using an RNG for games like Keno. In fact, on a side note, I remember a story about 2 programmers defining a pattern in the results and winning big. The casino closed the game and investigated.

At any rate, manipulating the RNG would be a major conspiracy and would only result in the fall of a very profitable business.

Max

**natrass** · 10-18-05, 11:19 AM

All fair enough ... for myself, I still believe while they have the ability to then they could (Im not sure how "major" a conspiracy it would involve, maybe just a good software engineer and the owner). And I personally would not trust them as a general rule ... there are more profitable ways of betting anyhow.

Ganchrow .. captured cosmic rays??? You know your onions on this Im guessing so Im staying clear.

**Ganchrow** · 10-18-05, 11:30 AM

Originally posted by natrass

Ganchrow .. captured cosmic rays??? You know your onions on this Im guessing so Im staying clear.

http://www.physorg.com/news1147.html

**natrass** · 10-18-05, 07:10 PM

Originally posted by ganchrow

http://www.physorg.com/news1147.html

Yep ... captured cosmic rays.

**dacanesrule74** · 10-18-05, 07:16 PM

I played blackjack at Bodog 2 nights ago with $1000 and turned it into $9000. Sometimes you win sometimes you don't....also lost about $2500 throughout the year playing Bodog casino.

**pags11** · 10-19-05, 03:41 PM

good thread, still leary of these places, when the real casinos are right down the road from me...lol...though these places are probably more "rigged" than any online joint...